Creeper Vacuum

[UpperKEES]

So essentially, the punishment is if you use the burst (and so run out sooner) then you'll have to revert to the weaker, quite unbalanced version of the maker.

Nope, I would say the maker was unbalanced when using it as a weapon to attack. As a defensive/support weapon it's very good. With the new burst functionality it becomes useful for strikes as well.

The reason I said you will be running out of ore sooner, is because the story maps offer very large amounts of ore compared to the maps you'll soon be playing.

You won't run out of ore (much) sooner by bursting for 5 reasons:
1. You will probably use the burst option for maybe 20-30% of your ore and only burst all of it right before completing the map. The rest of the time the maker will be more useful in its role as defensive/support weapon.
2. You can recycle all anti-Creeper that is left on the map.
3. You can only burst what's in store and despite the ore storage upgrades there's still a limit to it.
4. You will be able to burst only parts of your ore storage.
5. Anti-Creeper will soon offer another feature, which makes it worthy to keep some ore in stock and keep using your makers defensively.

Also- I doubt in speed runs there will be any need to build more than one maker. You can just let the creeper deposit and sweep over it. In the past I only built makers en masse when I wanted to burst anyway.

It all depends on the map you'll be playing. Some will offer lots of ore and maybe very little space to build reactors, so some maps will require you to use more makers. Other maps require you to fight at several fronts simultaneously, so multiple makers will be helpful. Currently there's no role for makers in maps with very high intensity emitters (think of 100M+ emitters). The burst option will give them that role.

[Eric]

this sounds like it could be interesting if its some thing you would need. I will post my 2 cents after I play with it.

[Ytaker]

Nope, I would say the maker was unbalanced when using it as a weapon to attack. As a defensive/support weapon it's very good. With the new burst functionality it becomes useful for strikes as well.

If you're on the defensive then baring a very small number of maps (e.g. trickery) you're probably doing something wrong. That limits its use, though it is excellent where it is useful. On most maps you should be pushing forward continuously. That's part of why the new ability is awesome. It means that the maker will be much more useful on a much wider range of maps including as you said high intensity emitters.

You won't run out of ore (much) sooner by bursting for 5 reasons:
1. You will probably use the burst option for maybe 20-30% of your ore and only burst all of it right before completing the map. The rest of the time the maker will be more useful in its role as defensive/support weapon.

Quite a few maps have multiple high intensity emitters which you could pacify with the burst ability. There's lots of uses throughout the levels. Bursting a hundred creeper could stop the need for energy costly blasters early on.

2. You can recycle all anti-Creeper that is left on the map.

That will mean you have a lot more anti creeper to use, yeah.

3. You can only burst what's in store and despite the ore storage upgrades there's still a limit to it.

High limit, compared to the typical amount of ore in a level. You can burst a lot, which sounds fun.

5. Anti-Creeper will soon offer another feature, which makes it worthy to keep some ore in stock and keep using your makers defensively.

You don't tend to need to use it defensively for that long. A couple minutes while you defeat a pool of creeper. You should soon move into offense.

It all depends on the map you'll be playing. Some will offer lots of ore and maybe very little space to build reactors, so some maps will require you to use more makers. Other maps require you to fight at several fronts simultaneously, so multiple makers will be helpful. Currently there's no role for makers in maps with very high intensity emitters (think of 100M+ emitters). The burst option will give them that role.

Yes, and ones with high intensity emitters tend to be harder.

You were talking about some need to have multiple makers to hoover up any anti creeper. Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

[Grauniad]

Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

You seem to know quite a lot about how the new functionality is supposed to perform. Care to explain how you came by that knowledge?

[UpperKEES]

If you're on the defensive then baring a very small number of maps (e.g. trickery) you're probably doing something wrong. That limits its use, though it is excellent where it is useful. On most maps you should be pushing forward continuously. That's part of why the new ability is awesome. It means that the maker will be much more useful on a much wider range of maps including as you said high intensity emitters.

Like I said your choice of weapons (and other units) will differ from map to map and will even differ more when the custom maps become available. I appreciate it however that you try to teach me something about pushing forward continuously.... ;D

Quite a few maps have multiple high intensity emitters which you could pacify with the burst ability. There's lots of uses throughout the levels. Bursting a hundred creeper could stop the need for energy costly blasters early on.

These 'high intensity emitters' are nothing compared to what you'll experience soon. ;) Hundred (or thousand) units of Creeper won't do more than a scratch of damage, so you'll have to use the bursts wisely in cases when it can make a difference. The fire power of for instance the launcher will remain much greater.

High limit, compared to the typical amount of ore in a level.

Don't forget you'll need to increase your ore storage to be able to make large bursts. For that you'll need tech domes and I doubt it if a good player would spend his first technytes on the ore storage.

You don't tend to need to use it defensively for that long. A couple minutes while you defeat a pool of creeper. You should soon move into offense.

I said there will be a new feature of anti-Creeper. You don't know what I'm talking about (yet) and I'm gonna keep it that way. :P

There's another reason by the way why you will still use makers in production mode:
6. Remnants are not part of your ore storage, so these will have to be processed like you were used to.

Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

You seem to know quite a lot about how the new functionality is supposed to perform. Care to explain how you came by that knowledge?

Heheh! Ignorance is bless. ;)

[Jeff]

hi im new on the forums! Creeper world is awesome. there should both phasic tank and maker burst also.

[knucracker]

Hi Jeff and welcome aboard.

So right now the current state of affairs is that I implemented vacuum mode and it converts anti-creeper back into ore.  This ore goes back into your ore stash just like mined ore does.  Very simple and seems to work fine.

Burst mode is also implemented and it works well too.... excepting for one final issue.
When you click burst, if converts any stored ore you have into Anti-Creeper.  It will 'burst' it all at once.  It does not convert any remnants you have collected into Anti-Creeper.  I have experimented with allowing the bursting of remnants, but it is way super powerful to be able to do that.  On day 4, you can burst 4500 units of Ore into Anti-Creeper and nearly win the map with only a single Maker.

But the question remains as to what do I provide to deal with Remnants if you want to be able to burst.  If a player has say 100 collected remnants and they want to burst, what do they do?  My 'answer of the hour' is that I will do nothing.  The player either won't be able to burst in this scenario, or they will have to produce Anti-Creeper from the remnants and then vacuum it up.

[Ebon Heart]

Hi Jeff and welcome aboard.

So right now the current state of affairs is that I implemented vacuum mode and it converts anti-creeper back into ore.  This ore goes back into your ore stash just like mined ore does.  Very simple and seems to work fine.

Burst mode is also implemented and it works well too.... excepting for one final issue.
When you click burst, if converts any stored ore you have into Anti-Creeper.  It will 'burst' it all at once.  It does not convert any remnants you have collected into Anti-Creeper.  I have experimented with allowing the bursting of remnants, but it is way super powerful to be able to do that.  On day 4, you can burst 4500 units of Ore into Anti-Creeper and nearly win the map with only a single Maker.

But the question remains as to what do I provide to deal with Remnants if you want to be able to burst.  If a player has say 100 collected remnants and they want to burst, what do they do?  My 'answer of the hour' is that I will do nothing.  The player either won't be able to burst in this scenario, or they will have to produce Anti-Creeper from the remnants and then vacuum it up.

What if there was a way for makers to automatically convert remnant ore into stored ore, without the need to make it and vacuum it up.. maybe have a convert mode where they can convert 10 remnant ore into stored ore every second?

[J]

We need an ability to choose if we use remnants or ore.

[UpperKEES]

What if there was a way for makers to automatically convert remnant ore into stored ore, without the need to make it and vacuum it up.. maybe have a convert mode where they can convert 10 remnant ore into stored ore every second?

Great idea Ebon_Heart! I wish we had thought of that ourselves.... ;)

[knucracker]

The reason for UpperKEES smiley is a conversion mode is exactly what is in the current beta build.  But....

I have concerns that the convert mode isn't at all clear in its purpose.  It only exists to convert remnants to ore and that only has value for bursting.  These are fairly subtle concepts for most players.  Your typical player might click the "convert" mode and conclude that nothing is happening.  I doubt they would even notice that remnants were being converted to Ore (assuming their ore stash wasn't already full).  Even if they did, they would either say "What good is that?", or worse they might conclude that you have to convert remnants into regular ore before it can be used at all.

[Jeff]

hi random question how do you earn a star and will you still be haveing a phastic tank!

[knucracker]

can't wait

Stars come with posts.... legitimate posts that is.  Nothing magical happens when you get two stars.  You just have two stars under your name.  Don't post comments without value just to try to get you post count up... it will be frowned on by other members (and that is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish).

Now, regarding the phasic tank.... the existing ore stash will accomplish the same thing as a phasic tank.  It is already shared by all makers, so putting ore back into the stash is a way to allow anti-creeper to be emitted elsewhere.

[Ebon Heart]

The reason for UpperKEES smiley is a conversion mode is exactly what is in the current beta build.  But....

I have concerns that the convert mode isn't at all clear in its purpose.  It only exists to convert remnants to ore and that only has value for bursting.  These are fairly subtle concepts for most players.  Your typical player might click the "convert" mode and conclude that nothing is happening.  I doubt they would even notice that remnants were being converted to Ore (assuming their ore stash wasn't already full).  Even if they did, they would either say "What good is that?", or worse they might conclude that you have to convert remnants into regular ore before it can be used at all.

At least I had the right idea! And maybe you could tweak the tutorial a little as well to better explain makers? A big questions many players have is exactly how they work, how the ore is transferred straight from the rigs to the makers without packets, and so on and so forth. If you said something about that in the tutorial, as well as better explain bursting/conversion, it might help. Plus, a lot of new players have problems with moving their maker/blaster onto the spot where the nullifier goes at the end. Just a thought. Nearly every feature of the game has a map to emphasize it, except bursting... such a shame. lol.

[Ebon Heart]

Jeff, it's ok to want a star... But PLEASE don't try to ge 2 stars on your first day. In a week, you'll end up as a senior member that everyone hates. Pls, only post helpful comments and such.