Map Testing

[Karsten75]

We are now entering a gray area.

I know that map submission guidelines say authors must confirm maps can be won and maps must be played before submission.

Since the first map approver (me) was not the best player, Virgil implemented a feature where I could see a score before a map was approved, so that I could tell if the author at least could win his own map.

However, the rule has *never* been that it must be the map author that wins their map. In fact many maps have been handsomely beaten, defeated and embarrassed after publication when the greater map community turned their attention to a map. At the same time, many maps have been posted that are hardly beatable, or beatable only by masochists willing to spend 100 or more minutes in mortal combat with maxed out resources. These maps generally earn the scorn of the community and that is a reward of some sorts.

I think it is about time that Virgil takes a minute or two out of his schedule and work with the current map approvers to determine more concrete guidelines on what maps should be approved and on whether score submission is mandatory.

In my mind there is a problem with posting a number of maps on the board for testing. There is very little difference between posting the map on the forum for testing and the map approved and published for greater community testing *after* ensuring that the map is acceptable under the decency and suitability guidelines that is in force for all maps.

[mthw2vc]

People who play maps undergoing testing know that the maps may not be good, but that they are helping to make them better.
People who play maps from the main maps page get maps that are almost always playable.
The difference is in reliability. I'm sure many people won't play these maps for this reason, and there is no issue with this. Noone ever said they have to.

[SPIFFEN]

The map maker has to prove that the map can be finnished ,
and to do so , an score has to be posted .

There is no problem if someone else than the mapmaker post an score to the map , is it ?

I understand that uploaded maps without an score might be annoying ,
but we are used to do so , and post an score to it later if it did'nt get accepted yet .

Maybe the uploaded map list should be changed in some way , so there is 2 lists .
1 for uploaded maps with an score , and 1 for maps without an score .

And an way to delete your own maps in the list , and dowloade others maps on the list .
Then the work might be a bit less for you mapapprovers .

[knucracker]

I discourage people from submitting maps that they themselves can't beat.  Nine times out of ten, these maps are made by people who are just goofing around and think it is cool to make something ridiculous.  It is also true that map approvers can see if a score is posted before they approve a map.  And I can also say that maps that do not have scores posted before they are approved, do not get approved as quickly.

Think about what a map approver sees when they log into the system and look at the list of maps.  They will see 10 or 20 maps that have not been approved.  Half of them will show a score and half of them will not.  Throw in the mix about 5% of submitted maps can't be won because the author didn't bother to play the map and put totems or crazonium walls in fatal places.  Any reasonable map approver would look at the maps with scores posted first since there is already an indication that the map can be won.  All the approver really has to do is make sure the pictures and text are acceptable.

For the maps without a score, the approver has to wonder if this map falls into the "can't be won because of carelessness" category.  Most of the time the map is fine, but sometimes it isn't.  So the approver has to study the map, let it run a while, play it, etc. in order to get an estimate if it seems beatable.

After a few hundred maps it's easy to see why maps with scores pre-posted will get the quickest approval.
All that said, there is no current rule that prevents a map from being posted that doesn't first have a score.... it's just much better for everyone if you do.
And I might in the near future consider adding a filter that is on by default that will only show maps that have 1 or more scores posted.


As for posting maps to the forums prior to submitting them.  I don't have a fundamental problem with it...
Now, that said, my advice to map makers is to play the map yourself and make a map that you are happy with and that matches your own skill level (or is easier).  If you do that, and post that, your map will be played.  Whatever your skill, there are others with that skill and less.  Don't feel like you should create a map that is harder than you can win.  I don't...
My maps were all won by me (multiple times in multiple ways) before I included them in the game or posted them to the custom maps. If you follow this advice, then you often won't need to post a map to the forum to see if it can be won.  You can also add some nice text or some little surprise to your map and it will not be spoiled by having been seen on the forum already.

Lastly, some people do like answering the question "is there some way to beat this overloaded contraption of a map I made up?".  That's cool, and these maps can be posted to the Custom Map Discussion forum.  If you have an experimental map that makes a pretty pattern, or something like that.... you can post in to the forums and see if people respond.  But don't necessarily think that these kinds of maps should be submitted for approval...  Just use common sense about what fits.

[J]

If you read unit 8 from this book, you wil know everything about games and map/level creating.

Beginners try to beat the player with impossible challenges.
Experts try to learn to player to play games.

[UpperKEES]

For the maps without a score, the approver has to wonder if this map falls into the "can't be won because of carelessness" category.  Most of the time the map is fine, but sometimes it isn't.  So the approver has to study the map, let it run a while, play it, etc. in order to get an estimate if it seems beatable.

Just a slight addition, because I think everything has been explained very well.

After playing hundreds of maps it's often not very hard to see whether a map can be completed or not, so I don't have to play every map without a score until the rift activates. The only maps causing a problem are the maps with very high intensity emitters and maps with a lot of delayed emitters. You'll probably understand that it isn't possible to play all maps until the end due to time limitations. Because I find maps with high intensity emitters rather boring (just my opinion, as it is more about using brute force than using skill and techniques), these are the maps that I ask the author to submit a score for.

Most creators try to beat the player with impossible challenges.
Experts try to learn to player to play games.

Probably not most creators, but some indeed do. A good map is a fun challenge for the intended category of players (ranging from newbies to experts). Bad maps are often created by authors who hardly have any map making (or even playing!) experience or authors who like to outsmart the players of their own maps. When you like to show off your own skills, just play more maps yourself. ;)

[Blaze]

I think the thread should stay.

Cause what if you don't have time? (Like with me.)
Or your a noob player and want to make something harder?
Or just if you want to make sure you got the kind of gameplay you were going for.

This is a useful thread, and should stay. Let everyone post in-testing maps if they need help.
Thats my opinion.  

[UpperKEES]

Nobody said this thread shouldn't stay.

Or your a noob player and want to make something harder?

I discourage people from submitting maps that they themselves can't beat.
(...)
Now, that said, my advice to map makers is to play the map yourself and make a map that you are happy with and that matches your own skill level (or is easier).  If you do that, and post that, your map will be played.  Whatever your skill, there are others with that skill and less.  Don't feel like you should create a map that is harder than you can win.  I don't...
My maps were all won by me (multiple times in multiple ways) before I included them in the game or posted them to the custom maps.

what if you don't have time? (Like with me.)

If you don't have the time, don't make a map or wait until you have the time before submitting it.

[F0R]

Nobody said this thread shouldn't stay.

Or your a noob player and want to make something harder?

I discourage people from submitting maps that they themselves can't beat.
(...)
Now, that said, my advice to map makers is to play the map yourself and make a map that you are happy with and that matches your own skill level (or is easier).  If you do that, and post that, your map will be played.  Whatever your skill, there are others with that skill and less.  Don't feel like you should create a map that is harder than you can win.  I don't...
My maps were all won by me (multiple times in multiple ways) before I included them in the game or posted them to the custom maps.

what if you don't have time? (Like with me.)

If you don't have the time, don't make a map or wait until you have the time before submitting it.

IF you don't have the time maybe someone else does. And its always fun to try really hard maps

[Blaze]

Like I said, thats just my opinion...

[Twi]

Well, as anyone who has been reading the chat around this time will know, I find myself able to make maps but unable to actually play them. So I have to get them tested.

Here's the one I'm making right now:

Great_wall.cwm (979 B)

[Mare]

Well, as anyone who has been reading the chat around this time will know, I find myself able to make maps but unable to actually play them. So I have to get them tested.

Here's the one I'm making right now:

Great_wall.cwm (979 B)

I have just played that map....ITS WAAAY TOO EASY, add some terrain or make a smaller width size of the wall because that is simply too much crazonium.

[PHOENIX79]

NOW I understand how great testers can be. My hours at work have doubled, so I start making maps, and can't finish, or don't have time to play it once I'm done  :(

[Twi]

As pointless as this map is, it still needs testing because I still can't play it and submit a score...
:(

[mthw2vc]

Done. A bit boring if you choose not to float your way over there.