Guppies and Forward Bases

[Ronini]

As I read the comments to the last blog ("Aether") it became evident that some people are dissatisfied with how the Guppies have turned out. Since discussions on the blog comments are hard to follow, here's the floor to battle it out.

I, for one, think that energy should only travel along land-lines, and collectors and reactors that have no "hard" connection to a CN therefore do not produce any energy at all.
Now, there are currently two modes of operation for guppies. Either packet transport or ore transport. No AC transport. This seems nonsensical for the following reasons:

1) There are two types of packets. Ammo and Build. The Guppy seems to carry raw energy, since the type of a given packet the Guppy carries is only decided when the packet is distributed. There is huge potential for contradictions here.

energy should only travel along land-lines

2) Ore and AC would usually travel in opposite directions. Ore goes from a forward base to a CN to be processed to AC. AC goes from a CN to a forward base to be delivered to sprayers and bomber landing pads.

3) Why should a Guppy make an empty return flight when there are resources to be transported in both directions? That's highly inefficient.

I know, these things do not need to make sense and I'd rate a "easy to learn, hard to master" game-play above flawless logic. But the more these two go together in a game, the more satisfying the game is overall.

Discuss.

[ShadowDragon7015]

But the guppy carrying the energy allows for a base that could be on a far cliff which could be very helpful if there are important things on that cliff or if it would be helpful to attack the creeper from both sides. But even better is cutting off some digitalis from far away to make the rest of it that is coming close to the CN to just stop moving and die. so the guppies with energy are very helpful and a good idea. Also the guppy with energy allows you to build a forward base across a void in areas that would normally be unreachable.

[4xC]

I can see something in this making sense. For one thing, I am starting to think guppies ought to carry AC as well as ore and packets. THere does not seem to be any reason that the guppy should only be able to reinforce energized weapons and not AC-deploying weapons. Otherwise, there goes the concept of distant sprayers or even distant bomber pads.

[UpperKEES]

To me the choices currently made seem very logical:

1. Energy is generated closed to the CN's anyway; no need to transport it.
2. Energy packets are very likely to be needed at distant locations.
3. Ore can be available at distant locations, but not close to the CN's that need to refine it into AC.
4. Probably most of your AC will be dropped by bombers, that can reach distant location themselves. Sprayers can use their collection field to use the same AC over and over. Without a network connection, they wouldn't be able to dispatch excess packets back to the CN's, so it makes less sense to use them disconnected.
5. It does make sense to have dedicated guppies for dedicated flights, just like in real life. You don't put milk in an oil tanker. Yet in no time a guppy can be transformed from an energy packet transporter into an ore transporter. Besides that it's very unlikely that you will have an ore mine at the exact distant location where you need your energy packets.
6. For simplicities sake (one of the main reasons CW1 was such a success), having 4 transport modes would be overkill. I'm glad the 2 redundant modes have been eliminated.

[hoodwink]

1) There are two types of packets. Ammo and Build. The Guppy seems to carry raw energy, since the type of a given packet the Guppy carries is only decided when the packet is distributed. There is huge potential for contradictions here.

energy should only travel along land-lines

Ok, let's clear this up to start with.
The CN receives all energy, and converts it all into packets. These packets are converted into either build packets or ammo packets on release. This is because the packets essentially contain the same matter, just structured (and/or 'programmed') in a different way. A guppy would simply convert between build packets and ammo packets, but cannot use energy in any way.
Therefore the guppy does not carry energy when set to packet-carrying mode, but rather carries mass.
The video 'mule' gives us a possible scenario for wanting to be able to transport energy and AC via guppies. It's true that most of the AC will be used in bombers, but you might want to transport them to sprayers too.
Personally, my tactic would be to drown areas in AC, and then launch unfilled sprayers to absorb and 'redirect' any AC that's not exactly where I want it. This will never require AC guppies, unless there is no room for bombers - but then I'd probably move the CN anyway.

I think we should stick with it being able to transport:
Ore - very likely to be in hard-to-reach areas, and will always require constant transport back to the CN(s).
Packets - this is the backbone of guppy uses, allowing you to build and supply weapons and units remotely (see all vids using guppies)
Energy - this may be the most unused use of guppies, but it will come in very useful if you don't want to conversely move the CN and use many more packet guppies to achieve the same effect

(Sorry for the long response; I've been doing essays most of this week and I've gotten into it... :P)

[Shrike30]

Removing Energy makes sense to me; why not just build more reactors at the CN?  Removing AC does not.  What this prevents me from doing is supplying a forward base that uses Sprayers with ammunition unless I also have bombers dropping AC on my forces.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to allow the ammunition for one weapon type to be ferried forward, but not the ammunition for the other weapon type.

[Kingo]

I believe there should be a different unit for getting energy in remote parts of the map.
Something like a rectenna (recieving antenna for those who didn't know). The creeper could influence how much power is recieved, along with other factors.

[UpperKEES]

It's actually kinda funny....

Remember playing CW1? When paratrooping on a hard map with heavy emitters you had to drop a dozen blasters and a couple of mortars into the Creeper, support them with drones and fly them all the way back if you weren't able to cap that emitter with the first run. Sometimes a little bridging with Odin City could make them last a few seconds longer, but that's it.

Now we will have the guppy. As many as you want (space permitting). Drop a pulse cannon, a shield and a mortar; a nifty little assault team supplied by 2 guppies and you will be able to build your nullifier right away. Assist with bombers as desired. Don't you see the power of that?

In addition to this you can get your ore from any place on the map. For the price of 2.5 relays.

Do you really think this unit should become more powerful?

[Grauniad]

Removing Energy makes sense to me; why not just build more reactors at the CN?  Removing AC does not.  What this prevents me from doing is supplying a forward base that uses Sprayers with ammunition unless I also have bombers dropping AC on my forces.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to allow the ammunition for one weapon type to be ferried forward, but not the ammunition for the other weapon type.

You miss something. AC already has a remote delivery system in bombers.  Packets do not.

[Grauniad]

I believe there should be a different unit for getting energy in remote parts of the map.

You mean like one of your 3 CNs?

[lurkily]

I can understand losing energy.  It's different enough from every other usage of the guppy to be confusing, and adds an aspect to the game that isn't really important enough to offset the inevitable confusion.

I understand the arguments against carrying AC.  You can deliver it with a bomber.  You can even fuel a sprayer (In a kind of gimpy, crippled way) with bomber deliveries instead of guppy deliveries, provided you want to run your sprayer with the collection field on.  (Which I personally don't, not on a beachhead.  Leads to fewer edges exposed to creeper.)

It just seems like a missing option.  When you look at the list of things that can be transported, it's clear and obvious that something is missing without AC in the list.  Energy is different enough from packets that it can be left out without being quite so missed.

I think AC is different enough (in my opinion) not to be confused with ore or packets, but it's similar enough in its use that the additional option (again, in my opinion) also shouldn't be too confusing.  

[Shrike30]

You miss something. AC already has a remote delivery system in bombers.  Packets do not.

Packet-based damage at a distance already has a remote delivery system in Strafers.  It feels very strange to me that we're allowing the transport of Ore but not AC (effectively refined Ore).  What this will do is encourage the dropping of CNs at forward bases and the construction of Guppies at those bases, which then fly to wherever you were getting the ore from in the first place, or using Terps at a forward base to build a giant bowl into which you then drop a CN, a few sprayers set on "collect," and designate as the target for your bomber runs.

Or, another way of looking at it: Energy isn't a visible commodity.  We produce a given value of it and can change that number by establishing more generation or losing existing generation, but it doesn't have a visible marker on our network that a user can point at and say "that's where THAT point of energy is right now."  Packets, Ore, and AC are all visible commodities that we transit along our networks.  While we seem to be able to load the red dots and the brown dots into Guppies, they've apparently got something against the blue dots?  Doesn't make much intuitive sense, and I think it detracts, rather than adds, from gameplay, especially when you start getting into situations where you are trying to figure out workarounds like bombing your own buildings just to let them soak up AC.

[Kingo]

I believe there should be a different unit for getting energy in remote parts of the map.

You mean like one of your 3 CNs?

Sure, I guess that's something that is going to pop up in CW3, but what I mean is that what if you have only 1 CN (like virgil did in the mule video) to use and you have to use guppies if you want to gather region.
And not every remote region might have room for a CN. Or it might not be economically feasible to put the CN down and lose much of your building space.

[lurkily]

You miss something. AC already has a remote delivery system in bombers.  Packets do not.

Packet-based damage at a distance already has a remote delivery system in Strafers. 

No, strafers deliver damage.  You can't deliver packets to a pulse cannon.  You can deliver AC to a sprayer, provided you want to run it with the collection field on.

On a beachhead, that's the last mode I want it in, and I doubt one sprayer will send AC to a different sprayer on the network, but the kind of half-gimped possibility exists.

The rest of your post I generally agree with.

I believe there should be a different unit for getting energy in remote parts of the map.

You mean like one of your 3 CNs?

Sure, I guess that's something that is going to pop up in CW3, but what I mean is that what if you have only 1 CN (like virgil did in the mule video) to use and you have to use guppies if you want to gather region.
And not every remote region might have room for a CN. Or it might not be economically feasible to put the CN down and lose much of your building space.

Fight for a hardline. 

AC/packets is consistent in usage, at least - delivering ammunition - in a way that packets/ore aren't.  If the three options really cause that much confusion, that we had to lose ore or AC, I'd rather see ore dropped, to encourage the player to fight for the map, even though ore transport does add rather than detract from the game, in my opinion. 

[UpperKEES]

You can deliver AC to a sprayer, provided you want to run it with the collection field on.

On a beachhead, that's the last mode I want it in

Depends entirely on the situation. If you only want to take out an emitter and move on afterwards, it's exactly the mode you want it in, because you only want short term protection for your little assault team (and the collection field provides that).

Besides that a beachhead is a beachhead: it's small. You will already be happy to fit your guppies, pulse cannon, mortar, shield and maybe sniper in there. How often do you think there will be room for an AC-guppy plus sprayer? This is typically the kind of unit that you bring in at the moment you connect your beachhead to the network.

I doubt one sprayer will send AC to a different sprayer on the network, but the kind of half-gimped possibility exists.

I don't see why not. Often one area of the map that has been conquered still has a lot of excess AC on it. Using just one sprayer to suck it back up and send it (through the CN) to another sprayer will gain you more AC than you will get from 3 ore mines. Try it!

I'd rather see ore dropped, to encourage the player to fight for the map,

1. You don't know what you're saying. Where will the AC come from that you do want to transport?
2. If a player should fight for the ore, why not let him fight for everything and forget about the guppy at all?

Please take a moment to think about idea's popping in your head before posting them.