Creeper World 4 Time Mechanic

[knucracker]

Take a look at the video I did where I talk about the time mechanic in CW4:


What are your thoughts on this mechanic?  I'm not too worried about lore/story at this point (though it does mesh with the story I have). I'm also not super worried about details of the aesthetic. I'm mostly interested in your interpretation of how it works based on what you saw in the video and how you see yourself interacting with it or using it.

I will mention that on maps below a certain size, the time mechanic could be optional. So there might be maps that have no time mechanic and no chronats.  On maps beyond a certain size, the time mechanic (or something like it) becomes a practical requirement for performance reasons.

[GoodMorning]

You asked, so here's a list:

• 
  I'm impressed at the possibilities, though it seems that incremental Chronat movements would allow the Creeper to be bled off cell-by-cell. I think that takeoff and landing will need to take a certain time while the effect persists.
  
• 
  Being able to cause/override this with RPL would be good, though easily leading to lag.
  
• 
  Changing range of Chronats (possibly independently) feels like an interesting addition (mapmaker limited). A small range could form a pathway through a maze of Emitters to get techs, say. This could also be used to bleed Creeper off gradually... Perhaps set the range at Chronat construction time?
  
• 
  I also wonder if/how tech collection would interact with this. Currently it appears that units "frozen" to not form connections.
  
• 
  If Chronats are related to time, then using multiple could allow speed upgrades. Fire rate, Creeper flow (tricky), energy production...
  
• 
  Bouncing Creeper off the time-wall works well at the moment, and might replace Void. It does make for some other questions.
  
• 
  Having patchy time over the map would prevent a 100%-safe base, otherwise there is no threat without expansion. Spore-analogues aside.
  
• 
  Mapmakers will need a way to cap the charge of an Emitter.
  
• 
  Guppies/Nullifiers will be tricky to balance.
  
• 
  Waves will be deadly, by intent, it seems. Freezing a wave seems almost a mandatory trick.
  
• 
  I suggest significant damage be done to units on the edge of the time-effect.
  
• 
  Edit: Foolish, removed.
  

That's the first pass, unfiltered to help spark other ideas.

[planetfall]

If there is an emitter that stockpiles creeper quite fast but emits slow normally, I can foresee a stream of suicide chronats keeping a death wave from building up.

I'm not 100% clear on why stopped time still allows units to move through it. Presumably chronats are required to permit ground units to function, hence the need to expand using them. This is more a potential lore and tutorial/explanation snag than anything else - it just seems counter-intuitive.

A map with only 1 chronat could be interesting - can the number available be changed?

Making the player choose which threats to engage and when is interesting. I worry that even greater slogs will now be possible, due to the reduced interdependence of areas and less imminent threat from distant areas. Lots of people already make maps the max size just because they can, then fill them with nothing - that would be deadly dull to this gameplay model.

Limiting available chronats seems to discourage base-building, or at least incentivize placing one's main base very centrally on the map such that a chronat chain can reach the entire map. Purely nomadic gameplay is also an interesting concept worth toying with. I have some ideas re:base-building, but don't want to push at this stage (and may be entirely out of whack with your story anyway.)

If spores or similar exist in this game, how will they interact with the time-freeze areas?
If guppies or similar exist in this game, will they be able to travel between two "lit" areas separated by a "dark" area?

Re: GM on scripting: the following doesn't seem far-fetched:

Code Select Expand


CurrentCoords GetCellTimeFlowing eq0 if
    return
    #or do something else
endif


[jaworeq]

At first I thought it's fog of war..boy, was I wrong ;)

To the point - you showed yourself (unintentionally I guess), how it can be exploited:
- if in trouble, just move/destroy chronat
- if mapmaker misses it, half of the emitters will never pop on some maps, as people will look for a least resistance path (just imagine those cw3 comments - "har, har, unprotected inhibitor = insta win" times 10)
- prepare a bunch of suicide cannons/mortars/whatever new weapons are available (even charge berthas), activate chronat for a second, let them all shoot/die, deactivate chronat. Rinse, repeat. If it proves most effective.

It's an interesting mechanic, but if used as intented (which I guess is - uncover emitter, clean up, move to another emitter), brings only pain and suffering to a player ;) . If they're unprepared, a bad wave will mean game-over, additionally boosted by other emitters in the area making more waves.
Although, I guess nullifiers will show up, so those additional emitters should not be there to cause trouble (unless you have to fight your way to pick up the tech).

And lastly - you wrote you need it for performance reasons.. that's kinda bad if so early in development, with no fancy tech yet, you're already fighting for those frames. I guess it's all related to heavy fluid physics, but the sound of it make me concerned.

All in all, I don't have a verdict - it all depends on intentions, whether you want it there to as opression tool(like spores), as helper (like terp/shield?), or a little bit of both (can't draw a comparison here ;)).

PS: One more thing I just thought about - maps with and without this mechanic will be 2 entirely different games.

[Nicant]

What you could do is have the "Zoned Out" areas just simply slowed down instead of completely frozen. This could be varied from each map too. Where some maps will be slowed, and some maps will just be frozen.

[knucracker]

On the issue of performance, time mechanics are only necessary for maps that are extremely large.  For instance, a max size CW3 map was 500x500.   The map I was playing in the video was 1750x1200. That's an over 800% increase in surface area.  The one practical bonus from a time mechanic is it can limit the amount of computation required for a map, while allowing the map to be nearly any size.

That said, the time mechanic is not needed if the map is 'only' 500x500... or even if it is 700x700 (for instance).  CW4 uses an enhanced creeper engine that is more efficient and multithreaded, so at least in theory it could handle more surface area than CW3.

A few additional notes:
- In the video, the time ranges were very small. That exaggerates their effect, to a degree. Other things I've played with are time ranges that a much larger, Chronats that can't move, Chronats that are on the map to start with (can't be built), and of course no chronats at all (the time mechanic is absent).

- Emitters would have limits on how quickly and how much they queue up when frozen (which could be set to zero).

- Regarding lore, the general idea is that units have a temporal engine that allows operation of the unit (it's internals).  That allows movement and even damage and repair of a unit.  But the unit can't shoot since the onboard temporal engine only extends around the unit.  The same explanation would be used for why emitters can queue up creeper.  Only the chronats (and the built in chronat in the command base) can extend a field outward that allows the creeper to flow.

- The mechanic can used to inch up on an emitter (depending on other emitters and geography of course). My gut reaction on the mechanic was I did not like that. I would fly in, let an emitter release it store, then fly out and proceed to inch my way back in.  After playing a while the mechanic wasn't as tedious or OP as I initially though it was. The emitter goes back to queuing when it freezes, and when you move a chronat you deny yourself potential area for an operational base (and energy production which I have to imagine at this stage). It does, however, remain my primary concern.

- I have considered making the time effects by non-digital (a slow down or a speed up).  That would lose any large map performance benefit, but that is neither here not there if the maps don't grow super large.

- It may be that I don't allow really super large maps. I had/have plans to explore a nomadic game play across very large maps that have mission regions, but I have concerns about custom maps based on what I have learned over the years.  Generally, CW1 had some of the best maps (only considering game play mechanics and trying to look at it from a feature adjusted perspective).  CW3 maps that are smaller are generally better.  So a 'world' might tend to allow (as mentioned in the previous posts above) for lots of a boring custom maps.

- Lastly, I'm on the fence and will remain there for at least a few days about the whole time mechanic as a general feature. That's the main reason I'm reading everyone's comments on youtube/blog/here about it. I'm judging player reaction when they see it.  I might drop it entirely, keep it as a mechanic for special missions, or keep it generally (with some alterations that I discover in the coming weeks).

[planetfall]

I do like the idea of being able to freeze a wavefront in "oh crap" moments. It gives time to bring in reinforcements with the knowledge that the emitter is building up more creeper all the while.

If chronat range were modifiable, very large maps could be fun in the hands of a mapmaker who knows what they're doing, but that won't stop people from leaving it at the default.

Can weapons fire at creeper in frozen areas?
If not, do you have a system to guard frozen creeper from being damaged by a blast targeted at unfrozen creeper?

[knucracker]

Weapons can't fire at frozen creeper (they don't target it).  As for splash damage, I will make it so frozen creeper is not damaged.  It's just a matter of checking the frozen status in the damage function.

Factoring in the feedback I've gotten so far, I'm starting to lean in the direction of flipping the model... at least as something to experiment with.  This would mean 'limiting' maps to surface areas around 500,000 or less (which is a large map) and the time mechanic would be 'off' everywhere by default.  Chronats would become special units that freeze, rather than unfreeze time.  Or something sort of like that.

It would mean the time mechanic would not be a performance optimization used to support ridiculous world sized maps, it would instead be an advanced player capability provided by a unit.  Similar to how the freeze AoO works in CW3, but on a larger scale and with some different rules (like you can't damage the creeper that is frozen). Using it might also take a lot of energy, or require a cool down, etc.

Of course even in this model there are some things to consider. It sounds like the kind of thing that would be good to defend against "spore" (or similar enemy)  type attacks. If a meteor of creeper hit in your base, you could activate the Chronat and use it to prevent catastrophic damage while you brought in units.  I do suppose if the Chronat is only good for so long and uses a lot of energy, it might not be too OP.

[Karsten75]

If you go this way, it's a reiteration of previous mechanics.

I've been thinking and even the Chronat implementation is similar to the CW2 mechanic of beacons. So .... maybe not here or there.

[planetfall]

It's very similar to beacons, but with a twist that leaves room for new tactics and enemy dynamics.

I'd be wary of chronats that actively stop time, considering how inhibitor maps are so trivialized by freeze AOOs. You could make them weaker... but they could become very niche, to the point of possibly wasting a build button. Or you could simply not add analogues to the CW3 units that enabled inhibitor sniping, which you may not have been planning on anyway.

Exceedingly evil idea: chronats are required to pause the game.

[knucracker]

Yeah, inhibitors aren't something I was leaning towards including as a general game play element (somebody could always make one on a custom map I suppose).  I've actually been thinking more along the lines of a CW1 style primary goal (activating totems spread around the map) with the potential to not even allow emitter nullification (a formal capping process might be implemented, but the cap has a finite lifetime or requires energy/resource to maintain).  But in any case, the general concern of freezing time still comes with some issues.

The comparison to CW2 beacons is also relevant. It's interesting that in CW2 areas that aren't lit allow for the flow of creeper, allow units to fire, but do not allow units to move.  That's almost the opposite of the CW4 prototype.  In CW4, units can move, can't shoot, and creeper is frozen.

The CW2 model might actually be an interesting one when applied to CW4.  The main and primary problem becomes one of unit flight path finding. Right now units all operate as the crow flies.  If units can't move into frozen areas, then they would need to navigate around it.  Solvable, but a complexity for the player and their CPU. (It is solved in CW2, but the game is much, much simpler and 2D path finding is always done for all unit movement).

[GoodMorning]

As an idea...

Performance only matters for very large or script-heavy maps. That being the case, an opt-in system for the lag factory mechanics might help, though it would be harder to implement. A bad example: Somewhere in the advanced settings, an option "Enable editor deoptimisation. Enable if you know what you're doing". AKA: Show some advanced settings, including removal of a smaller map size cap.

Personally, I think that setting range of a Chronat only upon the first activation and requiring some significant cooldown on movement would counteract the flaws. However, I'm now less convinced that this will add a lot to the average mission.

However, weapon range seems similar to CW3, implying that vast maps would often become as the mostly-blank 256+ squares we see in CS now.

Two thoughts result: Finite packet lifespan and the effort of maintaining a CW1-ish Totem link.

I'm with planetfall on the time freeze, however I always liked the PZ-from-Nullification.

Last but not least, every bit of complexity needs a good explanation in a mission somewhere.

[Sorrontis]

Hmmm.... frozen time. I'm really torn. There's some pretty interesting things that can be made (first thing when I saw that was a nomad mode). But, otherwise, the current case makes the game rather passive. The emitters "wait" for the player.

Could the emitters have their own chronats? One that maybe grows with thyme, to a maximum size? So, regardless of player action, the creeper will come.
Also, instead of charging, you could have harmonic waves of creeper?

As for the movement of units through frozen time, it's a double edge sword. Our units go, so "spores" and enemy units can also travel through too? Right?

This is just my first thought. The thought is not very good.


Edit: Oh no! I forgot to mention the LOS on weapons! I love it. It's a very nice touch - the esthetics and mechanics.

Edit again: Oh, and if you decide to give the emitters their own growing cronuts; it would be interesting that the map maker can set the shape (not just circles and squares, but more complex like thick lines).

[pawel345]

The time mechanic seems really fun, but like others have said, it might be hard not to overpower it.

The most interesting element of it seemed to be the waves bouncing of the edges of turned on time, and the huge initial waves when unlocking a new area.

If a portion of the map can only be turned on, but not off, and the map is constructed so that the player needs to turn the entire map on at some point. It might not have the effect of trivializing the emmiters.

From the 2 videos so far the most interesting mechanic was the waves, so maybe an interaction between the waves an the time wall could be explored, creeper builds up very fast on the edge of time area, so when the player moves the timed area there is always a large wave incoming? Also similarly to the void in CW3 there could be a limit to time frozen creeper, if creeper builds up beyond that limit it get's moved to the nearest chronostat/command node though a "subspace slit", so a player can't simply forget about the creeper in frozen time.

[GoodMorning]

What if ... just as a suggestion ... the time freeze take a short while to apply, but Creeper cannot be refrozen? A sea, thawed, must be destroyed before refreezing; and a wave cannot be easily rebottled. Units would provide time to precisely the cell they occupy, or possibly a range one cell further (allowing waves to spread through a base). I imagine that a 0-Creeper cell is easy enough to skip in the flow algorithm. AC flow in the player base becomes a lag problem in this scenario, but not significantly more than in the current system. Perhaps it could decay with time or unit contact, if not properly stored?