Custom Map #660: map 93 DOG SHOW-2. By: yum234

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This topic is for discussion of map #660: map 93 DOG SHOW-2


Author: yum234
Size: 448x252

Desc:
#PleaseLoveDogs #GoodLuck

[yum-forum]

Particles as a nice little dogs follow rightful owner (HQ)!  :)

[yum-forum]

Very hard start?  :-\

[mercan1299]

Awesome map.

I like it. 10/10 point. :)

Congratulations...

[yum-forum]

Awesome map.

I like it. 10/10 point. :)

Congratulations...

Thank You! You are welcome!  :)
Very glad to get positive feedback! How it was "dog show effect"?

P.S.  I disappointed that only 2 players finished this map...  :(

[mercan1299]

It was inventive. I liked it.

[yum-forum]

WOW, ISOYAMA-SAN!  Very good time score! OMEDETOO GOZAIMASU!  :)

[GoodMorning]

This map, yum, is one of the few you have made that I actively dislike. I hope to see more from you in future, but this is one concept to which I do not hope for your return.

I came here to seek assistance. Below are some notes on what has failed, and some guesses as to what might succeed.

Spoiler

This map seems to have taken the previous ship-targeting particle storm, and distilled from there. So far, it has proven impossible to hold both mine-covered landmasses. It has also been impossible to hold more than one of the back corners. With one landmass, a temporary stalemate can be reached; but with a gem factory, victory could be clawed back. At the tipping point, however, three waves of additional ships descend.

My best guess as to the intended strategy is that it would involve micromanaging the HQ to pull particles away from both landmasses until such time as they were firmly held by Omnis - thus doubling the gem rate and allowing the power and range upgrades in reasonable time. The rear corners would then need to be assaulted with what ships were available (with a possible pause for the HQ to crash the trailing particles into the land), including not less than one MK7. This would allow a momentary pause for breath, and to get some MK7s up in time for the larger opponents. From there, cleanup.

[close]

So, I ask, what is the major difference between your method and mine? I do not wish a walkthrough, only some indication of which (if any) of my guesses at strategies have a chance of succeeding.

Edit: The undercontained was badly expressed, and took a page to say what RrR has said in a few lines below.

Poorly written section, preserved for reference

Victory may be sweeter when earned oneself, but failure is a bitter state indeed. I sacrifice considerable pride in asking as much as I have, so please excuse any tones that seem bitter - I cannot filter my thoughts from multiple perspectives currently, and my words will likely be interpretable in ways not intended.

If I seem irritated in the below-spoilered section, this is for a reason. However, some things need to be said unambiguously. Please do note that I would not write this if I did not hope it would help for a future map of yours - when and if you return to making them. Also note that it is only one opinion, and that I had just been defeated by this map, three times, with progressively less intermediate success, immediately before writing. The words are therefore more than likely tainted heavily by the immediate aftereffects of this - but are possibly a useful reflection of the opinions of many of the hundred-plus players who have not posted scores on this map. Do not open the spoiler if you do not with to receive an actively negative opinion enfolding pointed advice.

Original opinion, with minimal varnish

Normally, your maps are amenable to multiple approaches (both in CW3 and PF), and while a start may be tight, it is usually clear what must be done, and options begin to present themselves after a short time.

This is not the case here.

In another map, you expected the correct tech selection, three different actions immediately, and the moving of the HQ clear across the map at the beginning. That map was soluble, if slow, by another method.

This is also not the case here.

In the previous maps on this theme, holding a the landmass was sufficient to allow a shelter in which to build even a single ship. This was possible through careful manipulation of the HQ, even if it did sometimes require a warp-in.

This is further ... wait for it ... not the case here.

This approximate style of map worked in CW3, where there were only so many actions, the opposition was well-guided and the player options limited and well-understood. Also, there were various strategies that could be employed after the first minute or so. In PF, the number of things that the HQ could do is vast, and when multiple initial techs are combined with this in a lengthy and difficult start requiring the correct selection - the result is not enjoyable. It is instead comparable to crossing a darkened room, while being pushed forward (that you might not stop to feel the way ahead), along the rafters, which both require jumps from one to the next and do not necessarily lead anywhere. This, while having no ability to catch oneself if falling. It might be a challenge if one had seen a map beforehand, but merely knowing that one exists is not enough.

It has been said elsewhere that closing every back door to a map can take out much of the fun. This is not necessarily true, but there should generally be at least one alternative path. The term "rail-roading" applies to many maps - there is one clear path. Some of these maps you have made are reminiscent of the stereotypical trapped floor - take the exact path required, or pain ensues. This is a common form of rail-roading. However, you have also removed any hint of what the correct route is, leaving trial-and-error as the main method. This has no benefit to playability, and is a breeding ground for frustration.

As one metric, if your score is better by a considerable margin than every other score posted - the map is overly railroaded. You, knowing the route backward from testing, can proceed with confidence along a path designed to be sure and safe. We, blundering along in the dark, must test each step individually, not knowing if it will lead anywhere - therefore having much longer times, even when replaying.

[close]

Tomorrow, I will look at this post again, and edit the ramblings into something more cohesive. I place this up now, very much imperfect, in the hope that this rewrite may be made amid the glow of success, rather than the mental cloud of failure (according to an arbitrary, internal standard which exists mainly to support another internal facade of considerable arrogance). Make of that what you will.

[close]

[RrR]

I too found this map frustrating (and normally I enjoy Yum234's maps). I tried various options but never succeeded. Not sure if I needed better micromanagement or a different strategy. With the correct strategy opaque and incorrect strategies punished heavily, I gave up.

[GoodMorning]

Returning to this, I find that my above thoughts are fairly valid.

Spoiler

It is possible to draw the particles off long enough to establish a mire coating on both sides (though I used movement speed and circled about the far east), and defensive Struc is useful where possible (though I changed to Omni reactors for a while, until the first new gems arrived). Once the mire cover is stable, a gem to mine power gives vast amounts of energy, and some MK7s and the lathe-craft can be constructed. This allows the right to be taken before the large ships arrive from that direction, and the left is then easily resisted - the sufficiency of gems allowing the player to avoid chronic energy issues.

[close]

However, I still agree with RrR's opinion. I now see (or think I see) what you were going for, but it is very counterintuitive. A conversation explicitly mentioning (in-game) the need to draw the particles off with the HQ would be an appropriate solution.

[pasqualz]

Help Please! I can mire the top land and hold it for a while, but I cannot make any progress past that. The particles are just too thick to stop and the enemy ships just start coming in groups that are too many to repel. There must be some basic approach I'm not thinking of.

[GoodMorning]

Spoiler

The trick is to run the HQ around at the right to keep the particles off the land, having take the time only to build an energy mine on both top and bottom. While the HQ runs around as a distraction, Omnis need to grab every pickup and mire their landmasses. Once this is done and the amp-gem factories are running, you can build a reasonable fleet and take out the right, then move left.

[close]

[Johnny Haywire]

Hmmm, yeah I can see how this might have been a rough start. The key is the pic that Yum has with the particles following the command ship. Once you get that, it's pretty much straightforward.

I actually liked the map. Perhaps not my favorite, but definitely at least an 8/10.

Thanks for making the map!  ;D

[yum-forum]

Yes. You are right. Not usual gameplay, but I thought that it will be funny!  :)

[Johnny Haywire]

It was indeed funny - and I'm glad to see you're still making masterful maps! I can always expect something creative, that's for certain!  ;)