Custom Map #2275: Pyramid X. By: Dp

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This topic is for discussion of map #2275: Pyramid X


Author: Dp
Size: 180x180

Desc:
My take on a pyramid map. Wanted to make something that was not symmetrical and provided a challenge until the end. May be slightly sloggy if you are slow off the mark but then pyramid maps usually are!

[RealAndy]

Brilliant.

I especially like how the 'surprise':

Spoiler

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that just when the 15 spore towers are about to start, creeper starts leeking out of that corner and makes me have to totally redesign my defences in that whole corner.


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[Tero]

I don't know about everyone else, but my wind-up computer CAN'T build this FAST!!!  Do you think you have enough spores?  This game has a lot depth to it.  TOO many authors go for complete over kill, and low ratings.  Instead of subtle challenges. 

[RrR]

I don't know about everyone else, but my wind-up computer CAN'T build this FAST!!!

Computer speed has precisely nothing to do with it. The game proceeds in frames, not seconds. If the map is too complex for the computer, it runs slowly in seconds but at exactly the same rate in frames (ie the frame-rate decreases).

(I play on a geriatric laptop).

[Tero]

I don't know about everyone else, but my wind-up computer CAN'T build this FAST!!!

Computer speed has precisely nothing to do with it. The game proceeds in frames, not seconds. If the map is too complex for the computer, it runs slowly in seconds but at exactly the same rate in frames (ie the frame-rate decreases).

(I play on a geriatric laptop).

I strongly disagree.  A number of times I have download & played maps where you only to land and place a nullifier to finish.  The score page backs up my claim!

[RrR]

I strongly disagree.  A number of times I have download & played maps where you only to land and place a nullifier to finish.  The score page backs up my claim!

Without knowing the speed of everybodys' computers, you cannot logically reach this conclusion.

Differences of a few tenths of a second are easily accumulated by the exact placement of the nullifier (you want it close to the CN), whether additional collectors are built (useful when only one CN), and in what order, and whether the CN flyover trick is used to speed the last packet into the nullifier.

[Tero]

As an example: Custom Map 1842 by Andy.  Place a Nullifier in one of the PZs.  Select where the CN should land.  There is little wiggle room on this one.  Press "P" or click on Pause.  The scores should be very similar.  Yet there not.  Granted a new member may take longer for whatever reason.  But an experienced player has few choices if they wish to finish the map?

[Helper]

I just posted this in the other thread where you made the same claim.
You are wrong on the facts of how this game operates, and you are wrong to aver that the posted scores are less than similar.

"You might want to find a better example.
In the example you cite, the first 54 scores "very" (sic) by only one half of one second.
Further, 85 (or 2/3) of the scores range from 1:00.3 to 1:01.9
Statistically, the Standard Deviation is almost meaningless; much less "surprisingly different".
H"

[RrR]

As an example: Custom Map 1842 by Andy.  Place a Nullifier in one of the PZs.  Select where the CN should land.  There is little wiggle room on this one.  Press "P" or click on Pause.  The scores should be very similar.  Yet there not.  Granted a new member may take longer for whatever reason.  But an experienced player has few choices if they wish to finish the map?

I've just knocked 0.2 seconds off my time for map 1842 with better placement of units (and timing of placement). The fastest time for this map can be replicated by anyone, however fast their computer.

[Tero]

If memory serves, the score page lists the best 250.  I haven't looked at 1842's lately.  But can anyone explain why the times are so different?  Seems to me finishing 1842 is three step process.  As I have described before.
Some posts trivialize a tenth of a second. Even many multiples.  So I'll pose this question:

Is the statement below true or false?
1:00.1 = 1:00.9

[knucracker]

The game is definitely frame locked.  All game logic is tied to a "frame"  of execution and those frames proceed as fast as possible up to 30 per second.  So on a slow computer the average frame rate might be 15 fps... but the game logic won't care or even know.  Similarly, when you play at an increased speed the game just executes more than one "frame" per game loop. 

Put another way the game is "turn based" where the turns proceed automatically (unless you pause and press "n" to advance the turn).

When it comes to scores there are a number of things to consider:
- Cheating.
- Very careful placement to minimize packet travel path.
- Movement of the CN (juggling) to minimize packet travel path.
- Turn based game play. Or, the player pauses and then only ever presses "n" to frame advance the game so as to optimize game play.

The most overlooked of those above items is usually the CN juggling option.  It's where you move the CN so that it is essentially flying over the thing that needs packets.  You keep it there by pausing the game and issuing a move order (back and forth) every game frame.  I personally never do this, but on simple maps where it comes down to 0.1 seconds... people do it.

[Tero]

The game is definitely frame locked.  All game logic is tied to a "frame"  of execution and those frames proceed as fast as possible up to 30 per second.  So on a slow computer the average frame rate might be 15 fps... but the game logic won't care or even know.  Similarly, when you play at an increased speed the game just executes more than one "frame" per game loop. 

Put another way the game is "turn based" where the turns proceed automatically (unless you pause and press "n" to advance the turn).

When it comes to scores there are a number of things to consider:
- Cheating.
- Very careful placement to minimize packet travel path.
- Movement of the CN (juggling) to minimize packet travel path.
- Turn based game play. Or, the player pauses and then only ever presses "n" to frame advance the game so as to optimize game play.

The most overlooked of those above items is usually the CN juggling option.  It's where you move the CN so that it is essentially flying over the thing that needs packets.  You keep it there by pausing the game and issuing a move order (back and forth) every game frame.  I personally never do this, but on simple maps where it comes down to 0.1 seconds... people do it.

I'm experiencing deja vu...  Seems you and I debated this subject sometime ago with CW1.  It's very kind of you to take time to explain the more finer points of this most excellent game! 

My earlier equation/question was a rebuttal of sorts to a post trivializing an observation I made about the number of nearly similar scores.  I was trying to note the number of scores where the post focused on the actual times being identical in statistical terms.

I try to be analytical, methodical and patient when playing custom maps.  But easy at times to think 'there must be some way to halt the creeper, spores etc for X minutes so an adequate defence can be built.'  You cite cheating.  Which is outside my skill set.  But I'll have to try your tips first, to see if I can do better at some of the many maps I can't seem to finish.

[stdout]

Almost 2 years went by since you posted this, and I finally played this map, Dominik, and loved it! Great challenge.

[Johnny Haywire]

Almost 2 years went by since you posted this, and I finally played this map, Dominik, and loved it! Great challenge.

2 years, huh? Well, I just played this nearly half a decade after you posted this map, Dom. Really, really well done! (No surprise there)

And not even Alter Old could complete it in under 30 minutes? Wow, Nice!

At first I thought by "slow off the mark" you meant you'd need to expand quickly, which is not typically my style. This map is totally able to be played as a speedrun or a turtle challenge. Not too many challenging maps are designed like that.

I also had to LOL a bit at this thread - people blaming their computers when they struggle with your map. I hate that I missed this debate but at least it's good for a bit of info and a chuckle or two.

Thanks for the map!  ;D ;D

[Helper]

JH - thanks for resurrecting this thread.
Apparently I played it in the distant past and now will give it another go - trying to beat my old hour+ time.

Hey Mr. D.
H