Have you considered... (Suggestion)

[TheDigitalWizard]

I had a cool idea. What if instead of just getting 1 ship per blueprint, have something similar to CW (Infinite ships after one blueprint is collected), but with a twist: Mining for resources.

Basically, an upgrade you could get for a power source would be a miner unit, which would go out and gather different resources from asteroids, hull plating, dead particles, etc. Some resources I thought of are:
-Ironium (basic metal, mined from asteroids and hull plating)
-Titarium (More advanced metal, mined from asteroids and rarely from hull plating)
-Creepelium (Very rare, strong metal, mined from enemy hull plating and rare asteroids)
-Indestructium (Super rare, strongest metal, only mined from enemy hull plating)
-Crystalium (Fuel source for ships, mined from Crystalline asteroids)
-Energium (Better fuel source, collected from enemy hull and dead particles)

To build ships, you need the right amount of resources to build it (Ex: Wolf needs 10 Ironium, 5 Titarium, 1 Crystalium, and also 5 crystelium as fuel). More powerful ships would require higher and rarer resources, making them harder to come by. You still need the blueprints (which could be customizable, to create custom ships for custom maps, or as a goal in a story mission, that it is very hard to beat the level without), but you can build as many as you want from one blueprint, as long as you have the resources.

Once built, a ship refuels automatically when it's within range of a power source (A ship would use fuel to move, but energy to fire it's weapons). To repair damaged parts, more resources are needed.

Some larger ships could have smaller, less efficient miners, making them semi-self sufficient, but it happens much slower.

Obviously, starting with some resources is important. Enough to build some ships, some miners, and a power source (which needs a better name, by the way. How about a Subspace Nexus?).


I think this would be very cool, and add deeper strategy to a game that already seems to have a decent amount.

[pawel345]

One thing I always liked about the Creeper World series was the simplicity of the energy model. You have only one resource and have to manage all with it. It provides for a lot of strategical depth as you can use it to get more of the resource(build energy infrastructure such as reactors) or weapons. Also both building the weapons and firing them requires the energy so you have to find the perfect balance between getting more reactors up and getting more weapons up.

In a model where you have different resources for each ship type would remove that simplicity and the strategical depth. You would just build all you can until you reach the resource limit.

Well since the new game is not creeper world then things might be different. Can't wait for another video.

[warren]

I don't know about all those resource types, but it would be kind of fun to play a game where there is a resource, call it Matter, that is needed to make ships instead of a one per blueprint limit. Just one thing. This resource can neither be created or destroyed. If a ship blows up, fragments of Matter go flying everywhere. A recycler would have to go out and collect the pieces of Matter in order to rebuild the ship. Asteroids, made out of Matter, would become strategic objectives.

[planetfall]

^YES.

Although I do also find the idea of finite fuel to be interesting. Possibly leading to a factory that produces it from energy very slowly and takes up all the upgrade slots of one node.

[CrusaderDeleters]

^YES.

Although I do also find the idea of finite fuel to be interesting. Possibly leading to a factory that produces it from energy very slowly and takes up all the upgrade slots of one node.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of a finite fuel source. It's kind of like Anticreeper from CW2. You lose out on all ability for AC, and almost no way to get more after the mines are gone.
It would lead to an offensive cap, and players would have to either get it done before the resource timer (time before no more fuel), or turtle for an hour.

[scifispirit]

I hope you are able to make these resource systems into a custom mission at least. As well as the Matter idea. One thing better than this being part of the basic game, and in every mission, is that we get to have varied custom missions with never before seen events and entirely different gameplay, it's like playing a new game, and that we get to choose what missions and how we play them and design our own easily.

Pretty sure CRPL already allows these ideas to be implemented in CW3. I would expect Game 4 to also include CRPL, because why would Virgil throw away his pet language just after creating and using it for the first time? Either way, i would be happy with any kind of powerful scripting/extending with programming solution.

I wouldn't make the conclusions yet that this game is not part of the Creeper World series. If not, there probably are at least some ties to it i think.

[warren]

I think we can safely assume that:
a) PRPL will be turing complete.
b) Game 4 is not officially a creeper world game.

Also, I agree with CrusaderDeleters that finite fuel source is a bad idea, even if you get a trickle from defeated enemies via pawel345's statement that One Resource to Rule them All makes for better strategy.

It does not always, but I think in this case it does. Creeper World family strategy games embrace the idea that the game is not easily lost: If you make tactical mistakes, you lose ground, but you can try a different strategy from the same set in the next surge. Having a finite resource violates this rule by cutting out possible strategies after a time limit.

On the other hand, unit limits that increase as you make progress plays into a psychological principle: Escalating numbers makes for exciting gameplay. You feel more powerful, taking out more powerful enemies creates awesomeness. The only question is how. In creeper world, territory gained is linked to energy production.

A third principle associated with this kind of game is time forgiveness: If you survive long enough but do not make progress, the game gets easier. In creeper world 1 and 3, this was accomplished by the ability to switch to reactors from collectors. In creeper world 2, the tech tree served similarly. In the particle game, the answer to this question has not been made clear. Perhaps it truly is a different sort of game.

TLDR:
here I am just talking about how resources affect mapmaking.
[
All games need to be structured around a narrative. A script. In properly creating a larger "multiple conflict" map, each battle must be tougher than the previous. The most obvious way to accomplish this is by having later enemies be harder faster than the bonus you get from territory gain. Luckily, the creeper flow model makes the influence of enemies relative to distance, so this was possible even on maps without void (to block the creeper). Based on the sample videos, it already appears that some magic is happening to make more distant particle fountains have less influence. The type of resources available will affect the difficulty of constructing this narrative. With unit limits or Matter, the mapmaker is in control. A different resource model could discourage people from making maps or prevent amateur maps from being any good.

A way to think about the narrative is whether you want to go Nascar(tight race) or Formula 1(loose race). With resources present that magnify talent, the learning curve becomes steeper. Some gamers will pull ahead and get ridiculous times. Others will fall back and fail to complete the map. This F1 style does not necessarily add strategic depth, merely makes good strategic decisions more important from the get go. This will encourage "Save and load" gameplay, which will probably scare off casual gamers. (You can of course design a map for either race model in any system. This is a question of bias.)
]

[TheDigitalWizard]

I probably should have made it more clear: Asteroids give infinite resources, like ore in CW3. The rarity of the asteroids simply means that you get less of a specific resource over time.

I'm simply saying that having more than one resource (Power) to worry about might be interesting.

And I know this probably isn't a CW game. I have no idea where you got that assumption.

[CrusaderDeleters]

I probably should have made it more clear: Asteroids give infinite resources, like ore in CW3. The rarity of the asteroids simply means that you get less of a specific resource over time.

I'm simply saying that having more than one resource (Power) to worry about might be interesting.

And I know this probably isn't a CW game. I have no idea where you got that assumption.

Nobody said this is a Creeper World game. Warren said it's in the Creeper World Family (It has the same thing to do about gaining ground, getting more space than the opponent).
Having on type of asteroids (and their materials) probably will get boring. Adding all those kinds of resources that you added in the original post would actually make it cooler.
What would be great is if we had three basic offensive weapons (Blaster, Mortar, ???) that can be used with Ironium. You could use the Titarium to make upgraded versions of those (Almost like powerzones). Creepelium (Mined from common enemy ships) would make mega-weapons (Kinda like the Titans in CW3) that take up more than the original space, but is so worth it.  Indestructium would be mined from rare enemy ships, and would be the second (and most powerful) upgrade to your ship, increasing their health drasically. Crystallium should be what you use to make ammo from, and you can mix it with other resources to make better armor. Of course, Energium is, well, energy.
I bet you did not notice that I said "second upgrade to your ship." Well, I'm talking about hulls. The first upgrade would have to mix Ironium or Titarium with Creepelium. I'd be expecting that Creepelium is a material that doesn't suit well for very large structures like ships. Small fighters probably would be fine. It's like when you make a cake, the egg hols things together. The Ironium or Titarium is the egg, but reduces the hardness of Creepelium, making the alloy softer (TitaCreepelium is harder than IronCreepelium).

But what happens when you mix together ALL of the resources? Virgil, if you implement these in the game, add that too, with a surprise! :D

[scifispirit]

But what happens when you mix together ALL of the resources? Virgil, if you implement these in the game, add that too, with a surprise! :D

Having just played Magicka recently, and getting hooked to the element combination spellcasting mechanics, i can see how neat gameplay this could make. I don't think RTS games have used this kind of idea before? Closest i can think of are Earth 2160 where you could choose the parts from which to build your units, and Metal Fatigue, where you could select different arms with different weapons for the large combat bots. But selecting what resources units are made of is something i haven't heard of before.
Might be neat. Might also be a core element of a game that should have been thought of during the very beginning while designing a game.

That sounds similar to Magicka actually. The ship upgrades sound like the special predetermined combinations of elements (resources in this case) that cast advanced magicks (upgraded units) with highly varying effects, and basic combinations of resources that you could choose from freely would apply stats to ships that are determined from types of resources, maybe their interactions, and type of hulls. Actually now i remember one RTS that might be closer to that than any other. Genewars, though i never played it.

Maybe someone will use these ideas some day but i think specialties in Virgil's games are elsewhere. Not that i would mind having these ideas :)

[warren]

This whole discussion and Game4 are starting to remind me of an old game stelcon3 (c) 1994 Ed T. Toton. It is not a particularly good game and you'll need dosbox, but the nostalgia factor is strong with this one. Only one resource, but one of the earlier examples of a game with customizable ships.

I doubt, however, that this particular game is a source of inspiration for game4. Some of you thinking about asteroid mining might get a kick out of it.

[agordon44]

I like the idea of the elements but I think it would be a good idea to use it for the super weapons or teraforming. For instance what if I could make something that instead of teraforming it instead built walls with the iron element. Or to build a bertha I need so much titanium and iron stuff like that. That way it would be more cost prohibitive to play with nothing but the big guns. I also always liked the idea of instead of being able to change land mass with just energy you had to have the energy requirements and the dirt. So you cant just build a level 10 for straight out to the creeper.

[CrusaderDeleters]

I like the idea of the elements but I think it would be a good idea to use it for the super weapons or terraforming. For instance what if I could make something that instead of terraforming it instead built walls with the iron element. Or to build a bertha I need so much titanium and iron stuff like that. That way it would be more cost prohibitive to play with nothing but the big guns. I also always liked the idea of instead of being able to change land mass with just energy you had to have the energy requirements and the dirt. So you cant just build a level 10 for straight out to the creeper.

There won't be creeper, but I understand what you mean. :P
And yeah, larger structures would require more resources to build.

[TheDigitalWizard]

There won't be creeper, but I understand what you mean. :P
And yeah, larger structures would require more resources to build.

My point exactly. Larger/more powerful structures take more/rarer materials to build.

[CrusaderDeleters]

My point exactly. Larger/more powerful structures take more/rarer materials to build.

The better thing about this is that you would have to protect it far more carefully than a normal blaster.