Turtling too strong?

[asmussen]

I take it you would never work a jigsaw puzzle? /Friendly  :)

That's different. You never know until the very end if a piece is missing!

You do if it's an edge piece.  :P

[Otterbear]

I love the jigsaw puzzle analogy. This game is a lot like a jigsaw puzzle, in that you may know how to win a certain map before you even begin. However, there is the issue of the "missing piece", which keeps me going till the end. I do have moments when I agree with every post here. However, I do think this game strikes a great balance. I'm sure that later generation maps will involve some sort of penalty for moving to slowly or in the wrong direction, but I also love to find an easy one now and again.
(And YES, I too have "terped" the terrain to a nice shiny surface now and again. :D )

[JF-T]

While it is true to win by starting out with a turtle-type build order (yes, breaking out the terms on y'all :3) and then just pushing out once enough energy is gained, it is not possible, nor will it be possible to sit in one place AND win.
Sure you can sit in an area and ward off the creeper for forever, but you'd be stuck on one map for an hour before getting close to beating it.

Take the Alpha Sector, Fortress Siege in the Blaze system. you start out with a fully defensible position, yet you are still unable to simply win without doing anything.

Turtling is however a very good way to ensure victory as once you have enough energy and weapons to push the creeper back, it's all just a matter of time. I've come to the conclusion that once built weapons take up half as much energy as they take to produce, unless we're talking terps or guppies then it's more double the amount. quadruple for guppies.

Point of my two cents is... turtling is indeed highly powered on maps without a time limit condition of some sort like

Spoiler

Farbor does... which actually would be more like 3 time limits but all in succession

[close]

, but many factors are pressed upon the defensive's position in every RTS imaginable, though CW3 has no fog of war, there always is the fact the enemy has more ground to utilize, and there's always the chance a stray spore could slip past your beam defense.  :D

[burguertime]

The best quote from all the KC forums of all times IMHO is:

"SQUAZ rates all of his maps as trivial, because the map difficulty depends on the skill of the player." - Freely qouted from memory, if anyone can link the post or correct me, please do.

Turtling is too strong VERSUS the maps currently available. Even without the use of CRPL, it is possible to make a map where you cannot win by turtling. i.e. a map where you have to advance and conquer key positions in a set time, or game is lost.

The stacking emitter with separate start delya and increasing strength, a hidden spore tower that throws hundreds of spores after 20 minutes of game play, jagged terrain without terps, etc etc etc.

The only ceiling to creeper difficulty is the conversion threshold.

So, turtling is not too strong. There will be unbeatable maps. There will be maps where you will be overrrun if you turtle.

[Otterbear]

The best quote from all the KC forums of all times IMHO is:

"SQUAZ rates all of his maps as trivial, because the map difficulty depends on the skill of the player." - Freely qouted from memory, if anyone can link the post or correct me, please do.

Turtling is too strong VERSUS the maps currently available. Even without the use of CRPL, it is possible to make a map where you cannot win by turtling. i.e. a map where you have to advance and conquer key positions in a set time, or game is lost.

The stacking emitter with separate start delya and increasing strength, a hidden spore tower that throws hundreds of spores after 20 minutes of game play, jagged terrain without terps, etc etc etc.

The only ceiling to creeper difficulty is the conversion threshold.

So, turtling is not too strong. There will be unbeatable maps. There will be maps where you will be overrrun if you turtle.

Isn't the Creeper itself a "timer"? If your to slow to set up your defenses, you WILL get overrun, right?

[Yalichenta]

Isn't the Creeper itself a "timer"? If your to slow to set up your defenses, you WILL get overrun, right?

actually no. Emmiter won't ever emit crepper at a height (compared to where they are) higher than their "stength", so if you put an emiter of strengh 2 in a pit of depth 3, it won't ever be able to overflow.

This actually happen in the 2nd (or 3rd?) mission (and probably also the first one), where the emiter do not have the stenght to climb some spots (I ran one game for ~2h30 ig, and the creeper was nearly flat and not increasing, while I was not hitting it with anything.

Those emitters are quite rare in most mission though, as most of them has at least 10 of strengh, and therefore can eventually "climb" any terrain. What's more common is having an "asteroid/planet" (in void) with no emmitor, and no spores on the map (and no crpl weird stuff). If none of the emitor has strengh 500 (height of the "void"), then you know no creeper will ever end in your planet.

edit : and this also mean that it's possible to reach a "steady state" where, if you manage to survive for a while without doing anything, and with a positive net energy income and no building loss, then you know you'll be able to stand indefinitly. This may take a few hours to happen though (depends mostly on the size of the map)

[nebzero]

I agree, it is very easy to gain unlimited resources and basically just power through the level without any creative strategy.

There's many ways to get around this. One way might be to simply limit the number of reactors one can build. And also put emitters on long delays. So as time goes on, you will find yourself struggling to survive.

[Lost in Nowhere]

Disallowing the use of reactors can make some really fun maps, if balanced right.

[Otterbear]

I skip most maps that tie my hands like that.(A limited number of Command Structures I can live with.) But, I will not play hogtied. Just my option though. Not bashing anyone for liking them, I just don't.

Tormented Space is nail-biting, hair pulling, eye bulging hard...and they don't have to take away half your offensive capability.

The information about the emitter strength was very helpful though. *Must remember that when I build my maps.

[pawel345]

True limiting energy production usually makes me turtle more!! As the moment i can hold back the creeper for a while, I will wait and get all possible energy upgrades. Since when you can have a bit more weapons and energy than is necessary than you can make a small mistake and it's ok but in such a scenario you have to play it perfectly. So I rather wait till I have an advantage before attacking.

I think that rather than limiting buildings it's better to limit build space, as than it's the players choice what they do and how much energy/weapons they build. Also that encourages to advance as that means more building space-> more energy/weapons.
Placing sort of "rewards" for advancing is also cool i think, like you start without Bertha's but it lies somewhere near one of the emitters, and there are a few are deposits near another one and so on.