Virgil's new work mule

[knucracker]

I like to build machines that last.  The last such machine I built was nearly 4 years ago.  It created parts of CW1, all of CW2 and all of CW3.  Now the time has come to start shopping for a new system.  Normally I would devote weeks of research and thinking (and I still will), but why not just open up the process to expert input ? :)

Below is my starting criteria.  Anyone who wants to input can.  I'll try to build a list of parts for a complete system in this top post based on the feedback (if any) I get.

Criteria:  
Time frame for purchase:  Before Dec 31, 2013 (this tax year).  Prefer November/first half of December.

Budget: Flexible, but get very nervous above $2k (feels like I am doing something wrong and unnecessary beyond that).

Form Factor: Tower or otherwise desktop oriented. Very quiet is highly desired.  Nothing flashy.  I like invisible and silent not something to cruise the strip in.

OS: Windows 8.1 pro (I gotta go with the times and retire my current machine to the windows 7 testing machine).

Intended use: Development of games (what else do people do on their computers??)  This means good GPU, very good storage, high speed memory.  I will not be overclocking.  Reliability and longevity trump small performance gains.  Reliability and speed of secondary storage trumps amount of secondary storage.

Biases: Current bias towards nvidia for GPU (physx plus things they have announced and/or just released).  Intel CPU.  The most reliable SSD with the best performance, even if it is not the best value.

Vendor:  Parts available from newegg.com

Virgil's Wish list: http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=31603308


Working parts list
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TODO
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Added wish list to top post so I don't have to keep hunting for it -G.

[Cavemaniac]

Oooh.

I can hear something that sounds like G drooling and (appropriately enough) cracking his knuckles before settling in to build you a new system from the ground up...

;)

[Grauniad]

I could not contain myself, but had to chat directly with Virgil. Our talk ranged wide over a number of subjects such as the two Intel architectures (2011- and 1150/1156- pin CPU chips), SSD and other I/O configuration, closed-loop water-cooling and case design.

If time permits, I'll try and post a recap of those here.

I think ultimately Virgil s considering that now is not the time/place to build a top-of-the-line system based on 2011-architecture. Instead it makes a lot of sense to build  a slightly cheaper system with specifications in line with what Helper and I built, but to plan if for replacement next year, depending on what Intel announces for high-end enthusiasts on the next refresh of that line. At that time Virgil will repurpose this build in his own household.

At the same time, the 750-GB Samsung 480 Evo offers great price/capacity and has a projected lifetime of 11 years (estimated by Anandtech) in other publications I've seen 19-year estimates, so it should certainly suffice.

Expect Virgil and I to hammer out an impressive mid-range system with a great graphics card, and to buy the components on Newegg (with occasional glances at NCIX) between now and November 25th.

Hopefully Virgil will assemble it by mid-December and have some time to benchmark it for us, so we can see how it turned out.

The Windows 8.1 thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but it is a necessity and Virgil is brave to bite that bullet. I can't bring myself to do it.

[Grauniad]

@Virgil. Do us a favor and use Piriform Speccy and post your current machine specs. Feel free to trim the .txt file only to contain hardware specs. Don't really need the rest.

[knucracker]

      Operating System
         Windows 7 Professional 64-bit SP1
      CPU
         Intel Core i7 860 @ 2.80GHz   40 °C
         Lynnfield 45nm Technology
      RAM
         8.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 799MHz (8-8-8-24)
      Motherboard
         Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. P55-USB3 (Socket 1156)   33 °C
      Graphics
         ASUS PB278 (2560x1440@60Hz)
         1024MB ATI AMD Radeon HD 5800 Series (ASUStek Computer Inc)   32 °C
      Hard Drives
         238GB Samsung SSD 840 PRO Series ATA Device (SSD)   23 °C
         279GB Western Digital WDC WD3000HLFS-01G6U1 ATA Device (SATA)   33 °C
      Optical Drives
         ATAPI iHES208 2 ATA Device [BD Reader]
      Audio
         Realtek High Definition Audio

[MadMag]

I highly recommend OCZ RevoDrive 3 X2. It is one of the things I was most satisfied with on my latest build.
I have used the SSD for OS, Adobe + some video work. Pretty "hard" work almost every day.

Power Supply: Better to go big than exactly what you think you need. XFX PRO 750 - 1250W Black Edition Full Modular Power Supply
RAM: Go for some good 32.

[knucracker]

Processor wise, it looks like I might want the non-k version.  I have no interest in overclocking, it's cheaper, and has some processor features that can matter for a development machine.  The K version of the i7 is missing: VT-d and TSX-NI and a couple other things...

http://ark.intel.com/compare/75123,75122

[MadMag]

Overclocking and "tuning" PC is overrated, It is the fast road to hardware failure.
+ many many hours of learning and tweaking.

[Grauniad]

Here is some background reading for the decision-making progress. I will mostly reference only Anandtech, but Tom's Hardware, Engadget, TechPowerup, Guru3D and BGR are among other sites that have similar reports. Always try and read more than one review or report and make sure that a range of opinion is present, and that one report does not simply parrot a referenced report.

The market segment we're talking about in this post is what Intel calls "High-end enthusiast" The processors are more powerful, and has more cores and I/O paths than the standard processors. The 3 new processors in this line is the i7-4820K, i7-4930K and the i7-4960X,



These are the direct and logical replacements for Virgil's 4-year old X-series. This Intel processor comparison gives details specifications. I included the two high-end processors from the desktop line, the i5-4670K and the i7-4670K as well as Virgil's current processor (the venerable i7-860)in the lineup.

Anandtech reviewed the new processors in September,  and here are some pertinent observations (some other sites were less complimentary):

The platform brought more cores, more PCIe lanes and more memory bandwidth to those users who needed more than what had become of Intel's performance desktop offerings. It was an acknowledgement of a high end market that seems to have lost importance over the past few years. On the surface, Sandy Bridge E was a very good gesture on Intel's part. Unfortunately, the fact that it's been nearly two years since we first met LGA-2011 without a single architecture update, despite seeing the arrival of both Ivy Bridge and Haswell, doesn't send a great message to the users willing to part with hard earned money to buy into the platform.

Side note, also note the Intel Closed-loop liquid-cooling offering. I have the previous model in an older build and I'm highly satisfied with it.



None of these new processors come with integrated graphics.

And again, quoting from Anandtech:

Understanding why we're talking about Ivy Bridge E now instead of Haswell E is pretty simple. The Extreme desktop parts come from the Xeon family. Sandy Bridge E was nothing more than a 6-core Sandy Bridge EP variant (Xeon E5), and Ivy Bridge E is the same. In the Xeon space, the big server customers require that Intel keep each socket around for at least two generations to increase the longevity of their platform investment. As a result we got two generations of Xeon CPUs (SNB-E/EP, and IVB-E/EP) that leverage LGA-2011. Because of when SNB-E was introduced, the LGA-2011 family ends up out of phase with the desktop/notebook architectures by around a year. So we get IVB-E in 2013 while desktop/notebook customers get Haswell. Next year when the PC clients move to 14nm Broadwell, the server (and extreme desktop) customers will get 22nm Haswell-E.

The only immediate solution to this problem would be for the server parts to skip a generation - either skip IVB-E and go to Haswell-E (not feasible as that would violate the 2 generations rule above), or skip Haswell-E and go directly to Broadwell-E next year. Intel tends to want to get the most use out of each one of its architectures, so I don't see a burning desire to skip an architecture.

Server customers are more obsessed with core counts than modest increases in IPC, so I don't see a lot of complaining there. On the desktop however, Ivy Bridge E poses a more interesting set of tradeoffs.

The big advantages that IVB-E brings to the table are a ridiculous number of PCIe lanes, a quad-channel memory interface and 2 more cores in its highest end configuration.

While the standard desktop Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge and Haswell parts all feature 16 PCIe lanes from the CPU's native PCIe controller, the Extreme parts (SNB-E/IVB-E) have more than twice that.

There are 40 total PCIe 3.0 lanes that branch off of Ivy Bridge E. Since IVB-E and SNB-E are socket compatible, that's the same number of lanes we got last time. The difference this time around is IVB-E's PCIe controller has been fully validated with PCIe 3.0 devices. While Sandy Bridge E technically supported PCIe 3.0 the controller was finalized prior to PCIe 3.0 devices being on the market and thus wasn't validated with any of them. The most famous case being NVIDIA's Kepler cards which by default run in PCIe 2.0 mode on SNB-E systems. Forcing PCIe 3.0 mode on SNB-E worked in many cases, while in others you'd see instability.

NVIDIA tells us that it plans to enable PCIe 3.0 on all IVB-E systems. Current drivers (including the 326.80 beta driver) treat IVB-E like SNB-E and force all Kepler cards to PCIe 2.0 mode, but NVIDIA has a new driver going through QA right now that will default to PCIe 3.0 when it detects IVB-E. SNB-E systems will continue to run in PCIe 2.0 mode.

Read the rest of the article and gain an insight into the complexities of Motherboards, chipsets and whatnot.

Finally, head on over to  Passmark.com and review the benchmark data for these processors:

The Intel Core i7-4960X, the Intel Core i7-4930K and the Intel Core i7-4820K. Make sure especially to review them against the I7-4770K (or non-K based on Virgils latest post to this thread).

[Grauniad]

I highly recommend OCZ RevoDrive 3 X2. It is one of the things I was most satisfied with on my latest build.
I have used the SSD for OS, Adobe + some video work. Pretty "hard" work almost every day.

I used to think OCZ was the cat's whiskers and the bee's knees. But then there are reports like this (http://www.itworld.com/hardware/379015/ocz-its-last-legs) and I've heard some bad feedback on some of their SSDs.

While it is entirely possible that they have great products. I would hesitate to recommend them now. ALso, it is one of these bad spirals. Every bad report generates more negative publicity and hten it is hard to get people to trust you, but they are admitting that they don't have money to buy components anymore....

Power Supply: Better to go big than exactly what you think you need. XFX PRO 750 - 1250W Black Edition Full Modular Power Supply
RAM: Go for some good 32.

I don't think Virgil should spec the power supply before he hasn't decided on the processor and graphics. I agree on the fully modular part, though. I like to overspec my power supply on the premise that they run cooler, quieter and lasts longer. I always try and go for Gold- or Platinum-efficiency levels as well.


And agreed on the 32GB RAM. At the very least, and maybe a tick or so above the native level supported by the processor if the motherboard supports XMP.

[knucracker]

"NVIDIA tells us that it plans to enable PCIe 3.0 on all IVB-E systems. Current drivers (including the 326.80 beta driver) treat IVB-E like SNB-E and force all Kepler cards to PCIe 2.0 mode, but NVIDIA has a new driver going through QA right now that will default to PCIe 3.0 when it detects IVB-E. SNB-E systems will continue to run in PCIe 2.0 mode."

That... that right there makes the choice of a cpu more 'interesting'.  The i7-4820k to the i7-4770  are all within $30 of each other, so price isn't really that much of a decider.  The IVB-E cpu's can use more power, though... and that means more heat to move.  But looking at that comparison chart and thinking about memory bandwidth and nvidia and pcie 3... that sure makes the i7-4820K look nice.

[MadMag]

I like to overspec my power supply on the premise that they run cooler, quieter and lasts longer.

Yep, before I had PSU`s that was "cheap", but now I know the need of a good PSU just because of what you are saying and it seems like PC`n more often crash when the PSU goes 90%-100% all the time.

[Grauniad]

Processor wise, it looks like I might want the non-k version.  I have no interest in overclocking, it's cheaper, and has some processor features that can matter for a development machine.  The K version of the i7 is missing: VT-d and TSX-NI and a couple other things...

http://ark.intel.com/compare/75123,75122

Unless you run  (or plan to run) Virtual machines you don't *need* VT-d directed I/O inside a virtual machine.  And the Transaction synchronization - what transactions are you planning to run? it helps with stuff like database locks, etc...

Edit: and if you really need lock synchronization, you have excluded all of the high-end processors. Then you may have to look at a Xeon processor and that is another bag of worms (or kettle of fish).

[Grauniad]

Case design I'll summarize briefly, it's rather easy. :)

I like cases from Fractal Design, but in two cases there were small, correctable mistakes in manufacturing. If I was to build again, I'd still have a strong bias towards Fractal Design, but I would take a long, hard look at the Deep Silence range.

Both have nice internal design, foam silencing pads, steel construction, multiple fan locations, and filters in front of fan openings.  After that it gets to be a matter of preference. I built once, long ago a case with lights and stuff. Now I don't. My latest build had a window, but only because I had a really good deal on the case. My preference is for closed, unobtrusive and silent... For the most part, though I did build a bright orange case for my sister. :)

I like Vortex PWM fans to replace non-PWM case fans. I also prefer all fans to be PWM modulated so the motherboard/processor can adjust fan speed as temps increase, rather than manual or software controlled. There are some other fans specifically designed to provide high negative or positive pressure and those might be interesting to use in combination with a closed-loop water cooling setup.

[MadMag]

I love high Towers by Fractal Design,
but.. I love Cosmos 2 even more :) What I love about Cosmos 2: Plenty of space, in-buildt fan speed panel, "ulimited HD racks", plenty of holes with rubber gaskets, ready made for intercooler, "unlimited fan space" and comes with around 6 fans as far as I remember, two side panels that slides open with one touch where one side you got your wires and mess and the other side is your nice hardware :)