3P Maps

[Clean0nion]

The only thing I can think of doing at the moment is build a balster then moving into the creeper whilst building another... again and again and again. Doesn't get me anywhere.

I wouldn't say that it got you nowhere.  If you measure progress by "If I built something on the ball that wasn't a weapon, how many seconds would it take for the racquet to be completely flooded?", you're probably a few seconds further from death than you were when you loaded the map.  This is a map where a few seconds sometimes make the difference between completing a building in time or not.

Spoiler

Shields, I'm guessing you refer to. I completely forgot about disabling things. Time to get off SW3 and back onto Racquet.

UPDATE: Nope, still gets me nowhere! Better try something else.

UPPERDATE: Nope, I'm just going to give up on this. The rage of quit bubbles upwards.

[close]

[Altren]

I think I fun solution, that was prevented by landing/getting up, but it wouldn't take take minute (at least it doesnt looks so).

Spoiler

Mortar, then build and start loading guppy, while mortar is alive (also shoot from time to time, as unfrequent as possible). When mortar is going to die return to orbit, heal mortar. Then repeat loading guppy. After all this build nullifier. Took me only two extra landings (5 total if I counted properly) and about 6:30 minutes of game time.

[close]

Still trying to find correct solution.

[Altren]

Oh, I did it. Not perfect one, since did few misclicks, but still valid.

Spoiler

Used 5 CN, Nullifier and three more structures to win this. Even thought it is spoiler I don't want to spoil too much ;)

[close]

I think I'll replay it to try for more accurate score. If it is same as yours then I guess it is "correct" solution to your puzzle.

EDIT: Nope, my score is much better :P

EDIT2: My solution is definetly "wrong", since I used only

Spoiler

three different structures, one copy of each (excluding Nullifier and CN)

[close]

sent PM with my solution, hope this can be fixed, because I want to get all fun from this map :)

[ThirdParty]

I think I [found the] solution, that was prevented by landing/getting up

Yes, that's the solution I was trying to block.

Oh, I did it. [...] Nope, my score is much better :P

Let's see, you scored 5:40.4...  (ThirdParty experiments...)  Okay, I just scored 5:39.8, so I think I know what you did.  (And then I got your message, and it is indeed what you did.)  The last half or so is basically identical to my original solution; you just found a better way to do the first part.

hope this can be fixed, because I want to get all fun from this map :)

I'm not going to "fix" the original map, but I've attached a harder version that will force you to find an alternate solution.  (In this version, you get one fewer CN landing, and the racquet handle is shorter.)  I made no effort to optimize my solution to it, so you should be able to easily beat my time of 13:22.9.  Edit: I decided the level was fun enough to be worth replaying; my new time is 10:39.1.

[Ceraus]

Played your last three.

I think that for me, Natlan didn't exactly perform as advertised. Even without Reactors, I never had Energy problems, and instead of small strategic gains, I pretty much just brought a huge force from one target to the next, starting with the Nest and never really slowing down. But I suppose it's because I'm used to counting on Collectors for Energy (and I'm pretty fast in general).

Nihon slightly scared me at first: I tend to approach maps strategically, making a general plan and putting it into action as efficiently as I can. But I managed to put that mindset aside and just enjoy the map and its unpleasant surprises, which definitely are surprising and unpleasant.

As for Racquet... aw, come on! You'd think the brutal restrictions on building space would make the solution easy to find, but one hour later, I'm stuck. I've tried most combinations of relevant weapons, sending them to their doom one after another or keeping them alive by temporarily bringing the CN back up. I tried sneaking in a Terp or Guppy, but they can't be ready fast enough (although the Terp comes so close!). It's trivial to keep the Creeper down, but even a Mortar-backed Blaster can't survive on the handle! And even if it could, well, I have no idea what good it would do me.

So yeah, I'll be joining Clean0nion in giving up for a while.

[ThirdParty]

I think that for me, Natlan didn't exactly perform as advertised. Even without Reactors, I never had Energy problems, and instead of small strategic gains, I pretty much just brought a huge force from one target to the next, starting with the Nest and never really slowing down. But I suppose it's because I'm used to counting on Collectors for Energy (and I'm pretty fast in general).

Yeah, I'm a pretty slow player.  A map that's balanced for me is probably going to be too easy for the real experts.

As for Racquet... aw, come on! You'd think the brutal restrictions on building space would make the solution easy to find, but one hour later, I'm stuck.

Yes, I'm quite happy with how the map turned out.  You'd think that a 20x20 map wouldn't have room for much strategy, but it does.

I've tried most combinations of relevant weapons, sending them to their doom one after another or keeping them alive by temporarily bringing the CN back up. I tried sneaking in a Terp or Guppy, but they can't be ready fast enough (although the Terp comes so close!).

Sounds like you're pretty close.

"Fast enough" is relative to what you're trying to accomplish with the Terp and the Guppy.  I suspect that you're trying to deliver knockout punches with them, when what you ought to be doing is trying to make small, incremental gains.

[Ceraus]

"Fast enough" is relative to what you're trying to accomplish with the Terp and the Guppy.  I suspect that you're trying to deliver knockout punches with them, when what you ought to be doing is trying to make small, incremental gains.

Spoiler

(but not too many spoilers)

I kind of started from my goal and worked backwards. I thought "if I can make a Guppy, I win", but to do that, I needed a weapon to keep the Creeper down. A Mortar can't survive right next to the Creeper (at least not without tons of CN return/reland), so I thought a Cannon might. But I tried it, and it couldn't keep up, being too close.

But if I could Terp down a single square at the bottom of the handle, maybe the Cannon could land far enough from the Emitter and keep it down. But the Terp would complete way too late. So I tried sending a Mortar instead, but regardless of my timings, the exact amounts of shots it'd fire and other considerations, the Terp would be just too late.

And then you changed the map, invalidating what I was trying to do.

I've deliberately left out a few details that might be important.

... and rereading myself, I think I just had a new idea. But if I don't post again soon, it means it didn't pan out and I quit again.

[close]

[ThirdParty]

And then you changed the map, invalidating what I was trying to do.

:o My intention was to not have changed the map.  The version I initially uploaded remains the official 3P Racquet, which continues to be linked to on the front page of this thread.  I uploaded an alternate 3P Racquet Hard for Altren because he blew through the original so easily and asked for more.

I definitely recommend playing the original version, not the hard version, especially if you're struggling.  In the original version, there are several different strategies that will work, and room for quite a lot of error along the way.  In the hard version, there's only one option (as far as I know) and it takes a lot of precision.  The original is likely to be more fun for everyone except hardcore puzzle solvers.

I kind of started from my goal and worked backwards.

Sounds like a potentially useful way to think.

It also sounds like you've at least figured out what progress would look like.  Minor spoiler describing what I think you already know:

Spoiler

At the start of the map, there's no creeper at all.  So keeping creeper down isn't "progress" toward victory.  The only way a later position can be an improvement over the starting position is if (1) the player has engaged in useful terraforming, or (2) the player has an extra unit alive.

[close]

"Fast enough" is relative to what you're trying to accomplish with the Terp and the Guppy.  I suspect that you're trying to deliver knockout punches with them, when what you ought to be doing is trying to make small, incremental gains.

Spoiler

if I could Terp down a single square at the bottom of the handle...

[close]

Yeah, that's what I figured you were probably trying to do with the Terp.  Good long-range goal.  Probably not a viable first move.

[Altren]

I finally finished Racquet Hard. Would've done this a two days ago, but I didn't knew that

Spoiler

Guppy can launch not only when it is fully loaded, but also when Cargo + Pad total is 120 or more. I tried to give it more than 120, but was only trying to launch is second time after fully using first Cargo.

[close]

Awesome map. Thank you.
I used only 5 different structure types, not 6 as you told in your initial post. I broke my head trying to find that 6th structure, but now I guess you counted CN, while I didn't.

[ThirdParty]

I finally finished Racquet Hard. Would've done this a two days ago, but I didn't knew that

Spoiler

Guppy can launch not only when it is fully loaded, but also when Cargo + Pad total is 120 or more. I tried to give it more than 120, but was only trying to launch is second time after fully using first Cargo.

[close]

Interesting.  I didn't know that either, though I guess it makes sense.

You must be using a different strategy than I am.  My solution begins with...

Spoiler

...Using a Terp to build pits along the south and east edges of the paddle, so that a Guppy can build things in the northwest part of the paddle even after the southeast part has been overrun.

[close]

Awesome map. Thank you.

Well, at least one person enjoyed it.  I'm sad that everyone else gave up.

Heck, of the 33 people who downloaded 3P Nihon, only 2 submitted scores--and I thought that it was an easy map.  I think I'll go back to making maps that are winnable using more conventional strategies.

[Altren]

Interesting.  I didn't know that either, though I guess it makes sense.

You didn't? Than means that you used some different way to finish map.

You must be using a different strategy than I am.  My solution begins with...

Spoiler

...Using a Terp to build pits along the south and east edges of the paddle, so that a Guppy can build things in the northwest part of the paddle even after the southeast part has been overrun.

[close]

Same here. Ending seems to be different.

Spoiler

I guess you know why would I need extra 15 energy in Guppy. Was able to get 17 with super perfect timing, even used 'N' hotkey during pause. Would you tell me what was your way? Here in spoiler or in PM.

[close]

Well, at least one person enjoyed it.  I'm sad that everyone else gave up.

Well, it's a strategy game, not puzzle game, so not many love puzzles, and do not expect them especially from one who made so many good strategy maps.

Heck, of the 33 people who downloaded 3P Nihon, only 2 submitted scores--and I thought that it was an easy map.  I think I'll go back to making maps that are winnable using more conventional strategies.

Nihon is nice and interesting, but may be with one of your surprises in it (I'm sure you know which one) made people rage quit this map and not finish it when end is so close.

[ThirdParty]

You must be using a different strategy than I am.

Ending seems to be different. ... Would you tell me what was your way?

Here's what my sadly-inefficient solution to 3P Racquet Hard was:

Spoiler

(Before each step, send a mortar to die on the handle in order to reset the creeper.)

1.  Build a Terp and use it to lower the right and south edges of the paddle.
2.  Build a Guppy and use it to build a Cannon and a Terp, and use the Terp to raise a two-tile-wide height-6 wall between the emitter and the paddle.
3.  Build a Terp and use it to finish raising the wall to height 10.
4.  Build a Guppy and use it to build a Nullifer.

[close]

What's your strategy?  After reading your spoilers I thought I knew what you were doing, but when I tried it I ended up with a time of 5:57.  That's a pretty big discrepancy from your time of 7:38, so maybe I misunderstood somehow. :)

[Altren]

First of all I wasn't playing for perfect score. Just replayed map and got slightly better result - 6:37, probably can cut 20-30 more seconds, but too lazy to do that. So what I did was:

Spoiler

0. Mortar.
1. Same Terp.
2. Mortar.
3. Guppy.
4. Right before Mortar going to die remove CN and send Mortar as far as possible. (shoot with Mortar as few as possible)
5. Wait until Mortar is healed to 75% (would land with almost 100%).
6. Send Mortar to die, place CN back.
7. Send Guppy to "die".
8. Remove CN When Guppy have 120 in Cargo + 12-15 in Pad energy.
9. Start building Canon in top-left corner, return Guppy to get energy remaining in pad.
10. Finish Canon and build Nullifier.

[close]

[ThirdParty]

Ah.  Yeah, that's what I thought you were doing, except I skipped steps 4-6.

[Ceraus]

Finally! On my third distinct attempt, I finally got through Racquet (hard). And it's almost exactly the same method as Altren.

Spoiler

I already knew a Guppy would end the mission, and I already intended to use the extra-supply pad trick, that I sometimes use to concentrate Bomber.. bombings.

My second attempt was all about trying to terraform the handle as a first step, which I almost made work. A Cannon right against the Emitter could probably cap it, I thought, but the Cannon would stupidly fire left instead of directly at the Emitter, leading to its death. So I tried Terp'ing up the square it was firing at. My best timing was by recalling the CN and sending the Mortar far away; on the CN's return, it would stay alive long enough for the Terp to finish. In fact, I got the Terp to fire, but not long enough, and I couldn't optimize any more.

The mission remained in my mind for a few days, and I finally got that if the handle didn't work, maybe the solution was in the head. And I remembered that making a Guppy outright almost worked (after some Mortar control, anyway).

So I went
1. build Mortar
2. send Mortar to die, build Terp
3. terraform head edges down
3. kill Terp, build Mortar
3. send Mortar to almost die, start Guppy
4. recall CN, save Mortar, send it up-left
5. when CN ready, send Mortar to die, finish Guppy
6. send Guppy away, put 9 extra supply in pad
7. recall CN, start Cannon up-left
8. refill Guppy, finish Cannon, cut its resupply at 100 remaining in Guppy, build Nullifier

I think the only real difference with Altren is that I don't wait for my survivor-Mortar to heal, which I believe saves some time.

How the heck is 5:57 possible? I was pretty optimized there.

[close]

As for Nihon, my guess is the same as Altren's: at least 2 or 3 times throughout the mission, the "surprises" lead to results that, in a regular mission, would immediately prompt a restart (or a reload). But since those situations are entirely unavoidable, people give up in desperation.

Me? I liked it, it was exhilarating.