About Farbor

pawel345 · September 30, 2014, 01:05:22 PM

Recently I saw some videos on youtube about game and level design and I think I know where the problem with Farbor comes form.

While the level itself is rather easy for an advanced player, many new players struggle with it. The reason is that the "first-order optimal strategy"
() doesn't really work for Farbor. The best strategy for someone who learns the game is the "build a line of shields and dump a nullifier at the end", which is easy to use and can beat about 90% for CW3 levels. So when the player suddenly is forced to abandon it they don't have an alternate strategy, which most of the advanced players( and some of the new ones that don't have the problem with this level ) know and can use.

The other problem is the "iteration time" that is the time between a failure and a next attempt. Farbor(especially 2cond stage) is a long map. While that additional time makes it easier for a new player to win the level, it also makes the failure harder. If you don't beat Farbor by the second try, you will probably get frustrated. You pay through the first time, fail the first stage, and because your units are all over the place and you don't have the energy infrastructure in place there is a high chance you fail the second stage too. Then you restart and aim for the second stage victory which is far easier. But let's say you lost that too. You can't easily try again, because you have to replay about 20 min before you are at a point where you can try again.

If there was another level like Farbor (in it requiring a similar strategy to win) but took only 5 min to win/loose, it would teach most players the skiills thy need to beat Farbor, while allowing them to find out the strategy by themselves, as it would be fast to try out a diffrent strategy each time you try to beat it.

Metroid in Alpha - MadMag can be an example of rather short iteration time. If you manage to hold out for the first few spore waves(about 3-5 min) you will probably win the map unless you mess up something big. Later on even if you fail some assault, you can quickly rebuild your forces and try again.

abyssoft · December 24, 2014, 12:18:34 AM

Quote from: pawel345 on September 30, 2014, 01:05:22 PM
Recently I saw some videos on youtube about game and level design and I think I know where the problem with Farbor comes form.

While the level itself is rather easy for an advanced player, many new players struggle with it. The reason is that the "first-order optimal strategy"
() doesn't really work for Farbor. The best strategy for someone who learns the game is the "build a line of shields and dump a nullifier at the end", which is easy to use and can beat about 90% for CW3 levels. So when the player suddenly is forced to abandon it they don't have an alternate strategy, which most of the advanced players( and some of the new ones that don't have the problem with this level ) know and can use.

The other problem is the "iteration time" that is the time between a failure and a next attempt. Farbor(especially 2cond stage) is a long map. While that additional time makes it easier for a new player to win the level, it also makes the failure harder. If you don't beat Farbor by the second try, you will probably get frustrated. You pay through the first time, fail the first stage, and because your units are all over the place and you don't have the energy infrastructure in place there is a high chance you fail the second stage too. Then you restart and aim for the second stage victory which is far easier. But let's say you lost that too. You can't easily try again, because you have to replay about 20 min before you are at a point where you can try again.

If there was another level like Farbor (in it requiring a similar strategy to win) but took only 5 min to win/loose, it would teach most players the skiills thy need to beat Farbor, while allowing them to find out the strategy by themselves, as it would be fast to try out a diffrent strategy each time you try to beat it.

Metroid in Alpha - MadMag can be an example of rather short iteration time. If you manage to hold out for the first few spore waves(about 3-5 min) you will probably win the map unless you mess up something big. Later on even if you fail some assault, you can quickly rebuild your forces and try again.

This is quite true after my 6th attempt at this I have now rage quit this part of the game. I'll take one more stab at it and should I fail again I probably will not go back to it... maybe ever it took what I had found to be a thoroughly enjoyable game and turned it into pure hell, especially since there were no other levels that had a time requirement.
I've looked at the Youtube guides and I don't see how they accomplish what the do without a hacked game. 13 mins in the ship launches for me and I've just cleared the starting islands. 2 mins in and the main Island and lower left islands are completely drowning in creeper. I don't honestly see a way to beat this level. oh and it would of been nice had the ships computer told me snipers would shoot down the ore ships, because I had no clue that would happen until I found that time on this forum. I would still have failed probably but I might have gotten a little farther.
Bad design on Dev's part for not introducing the time critical element earlier in the game.

Also why is that sometimes right click lets you drag the map and other times it doesn't that inconsistency is very aggravating.

Lukahna · January 02, 2015, 02:23:35 PM

QuoteThis is quite true after my 6th attempt at this I have now rage quit this part of the game. I'll take one more stab at it and should I fail again I probably will not go back to it... maybe ever it took what I had found to be a thoroughly enjoyable game and turned it into pure hell, especially since there were no other levels that had a time requirement.

First, I do empathize: Farbor does introduce a sharp increase in difficulty, especially if you (like many people, including me) learned to play the "slow and steady" way. The inherent risk-takers in the population probably had a little less trouble. But certainly, if you were used to your levels taking 45 minutes or more to finish, Farbor feels far fetched for sure.

Before I got to Farbor, I had seen older threads bemoaning the difficulty. I didn't look at the strategies, though... I always like to give things a whorl on my own, and only read guides/watch videos if I really hit a wall and enjoyment really starts to suffer. My first two tries, I was like, what the hell! But I got a little farther each time, and on the fourth or fifth attempt (still no strategy help), I blew up the objective with 1% left. My sum total experience with the entire Creeper World franchise was the two days prior, so I was (and still am) no great shakes with CW3.

So, don't give up. It's probably not as bad as it looks. If you don't get any bright ideas your first 3-4 attempts, though, and the fun factor fizzles for you, yeah, no shame in a guide or a video, in my opinion. A very talented friend of mine reads walkthroughs during or before his first playthrough of almost any game (not my preference), and he has plenty of fun, so, to each their own!

4xC · January 04, 2015, 02:20:42 AM

With a lot of pausing and micro-management, you can (like I have) finish with as much as 10% or more left.

You would need to snipe the Harvesters a lot (have the PZs occupied by them), harvest your own AC while you do so, support a base with guppies, and focus your armed forces on that one base.

In fact, the youtube ad for the game gives away what I found to be the quickest possible way to win with no cheats.

jrodman · January 05, 2015, 10:33:46 AM

Slow & steady is what I liked about Creeper World.

iamltr27 · January 05, 2015, 07:19:03 PM

Ya'll are going to love Tormented Space.
After you tool around in that mess for a while, Farbor seems refreshingly easy.
I like it that the game has challenging maps that force you to improve your strategy.

tornado · March 28, 2015, 05:22:33 AM

First inhibited world:
Not hard. Annoying yes. Time consuming Yes. Hard no.

pawel345 · March 28, 2015, 07:51:31 AM

Well actually the first inhibitor has been changed during the beta testing as it was too hard :P To was so that you could try and play some maps without a huge skill wall. If you want to see what really was the first world in tormented space go to G's alpha sector and play Waternaris. :P

tornado · March 31, 2015, 05:24:23 AM

Forgive me if i sound pertinent but i haven't beaten farbor yet and cannot reach said alpha sector

Karsten75 · March 31, 2015, 08:11:11 AM

Quote from: tornado on March 31, 2015, 05:24:23 AM
Forgive me if i sound pertinent but i haven't beaten farbor yet and cannot reach said alpha sector

How to bypass Farbor

tornado · March 31, 2015, 09:17:59 AM

I am a cheat but I'm not That big of a cheat. Also been there and seen it.

Karsten75 · March 31, 2015, 09:31:50 AM

Quote from: tornado on March 31, 2015, 09:17:59 AM
I am a cheat but I'm not That big of a cheat. Also been there and seen it.

Do you think something proposed by a moderator and posted on the official site is a cheat? Oh well.... have it your way.

pawel345 · March 31, 2015, 10:00:54 AM

I think V wrote somewhere a way to make your campaign think a world is complete, not sure what that was, CTRL+shift+u? something like that. Or you can just edit a file in your folder with saves to get access.

stdout · March 31, 2015, 12:00:03 PM

It is Ctrl-Alt+U and it gives you a score of 1 with an incredibly long time of map completion. It does not destroy the inhibitor, though.

tornado · March 31, 2015, 04:46:31 PM

Is the CTRL-ALT-u intentional. And is the non inhibitor destruction deliberate

Quote from: Karsten75 on March 31, 2015, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: tornado on March 31, 2015, 09:17:59 AM
I am a cheat but I'm not That big of a cheat. Also been there and seen it.

Do you think something proposed by a moderator and posted on the official site is a cheat? Oh well.... have it your way.

Well that and the last time I tried it it failed. However, point is proved. Ill try it again.

It worked. I thank you greatly.