This topic is for discussion of map #555: Catch 22 (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld2/viewmaps.php?mapid=555)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld2/thumb.php?id=555) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld2/viewmaps.php?mapid=555)
Author: PurpleYouko (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld2/viewmaps.php?author=PurpleYouko)
Desc:
You're damned if you do and you're damned if you dont. The only way to defeat the creeper is to use the anti-creeper emitter. How are you going to reach it though? There's no way to reach that lake of creeper either? Maybe you can use the gateway above you?
Really?? Restrictions on everything again?
I'm sure these maps with the restrictions are fun for someone - but not me. He does not let you actually build anything - so whats the point. I stopped after 5 minutes and deleted the map. Sorry for blasting you, I know its now often taken as constructive criticism, but seriously. No more restrictions on units!!!
It is my belief that many map makers see it as their primary objective to make players fail at completing the map. They also want to avoid players finding alternative approaches and thus they place numerous restrictions on all aspects of the game.
One can only hope that they derive a certain pleasure from making the map.
I rather enjoyed the beginning of this map and thought the restrictions really made it interesting! That being said, after you "race" the gateway to the AC emitter and take out the other emitters, the end of this map is really a slog. I think by the end i had 544 ore usage and just slogged my way into the chamber to finish and once i saw my AC was winning the push against the creeper i just left to go get some food.
My biggest complaint is that the makers are ridiculously weak, and there just isn't enough room to make enough to push the pool back. that said, I tried anyway. filled the line with them, and some blasters in front to kill off drones, then kept having to scoot back a space every now and then. finally I got pushed all the way back to my base, where there seems to be an invisible field pushing down and left. luckily for me, that just happened to push anti-creeper in front of the shield I had, as well as keep the creeper from moving up into all my makers. Over time, the very bottom left dot built up over a billion anti-creeper. And then suddenly it was gone. In its place, over a billion regular creeper. as if someone had dropped an anti-conversion bomb on the spot. From there, things just fell apart. But can anyone explain where all my creeper went? because that's what I really want to know.
Creeper and anti-creeper are just two sides of the same coin. negative and positive numbers. When the number rolls over (as computer representations of numbers are wont to do if they get too large or too small, then the substance reverts to its opposite.
Thus, if you have creeper (or anti-creeper) over or near 2 147 483 648 (that will read as 2147 million) density, then a small addition (or a repulsor beam focused into it, can increase the density to the point where it will flip in to the opposite type of creeper.
Thanks. That could lead to some interesting maps if used just right. Someone should totally do that.
Quote from: Riluna on December 10, 2011, 10:57:02 PM
Thanks. That could lead to some interesting maps if used just right. Someone should totally do that.
Check out my maps Collapsar and Gauntlet III. I use the flip on both of those. Also Diamondique, but I caught some small amount of heat for that one.
I enjoyed this map and decided to replay it using all my lessons learnt from the first time. I improved my time by 0.6 seconds ???
Quote from: fitz on December 11, 2011, 02:03:00 PM
I enjoyed this map and decided to replay it using all my lessons learnt from the first time. I improved my time by 0.6 seconds ???
Well done! :P
I see my first attempt at map making is getting mixed reviews.
This map was designed more as a puzzle to be solved than anything else.
Possibly i even gave too much information away at the start.
the final trick in the puzzle is to keep the gateway alive until you can reach the bottom entrance into the creeper pool.
If anyone manages to beat the map by going in via the top right then I would like to hear about it. I don't think it's possible.
I was hoping that a lot of people wouldn't realize there was a second way into the creeper pool.
And yes i must admit that pushing the creeper back down the tubes is a tad tedious.
As for limits. I don't know why that would be a problem. You have to think a lot more strategically when you have limited resources. Without the limits it would be too easy IMO.
Well on my way to winning from the top right entrance:
(http://emergent.unpythonic.net/files/sandbox/555-topright.png)
this ultimately led to my unimpressive 74 minute finish.
Spoiler
to make any headway going from this direction, I had 9 sets of charging makers that I moved in and dumped one after the other for, well, about an hour.
I guess that going in from the other direction the fields would work in my favor..
Quote from: PurpleYouko on December 11, 2011, 05:23:00 PM
I see my first attempt at map making is getting mixed reviews.
This map was designed more as a puzzle to be solved than anything else.
Possibly i even gave too much information away at the start.
the final trick in the puzzle is to keep the gateway alive until you can reach the bottom entrance into the creeper pool.
If anyone manages to beat the map by going in via the top right then I would like to hear about it. I don't think it's possible.
I was hoping that a lot of people wouldn't realize there was a second way into the creeper pool.
And yes i must admit that pushing the creeper back down the tubes is a tad tedious.
As for limits. I don't know why that would be a problem. You have to think a lot more strategically when you have limited resources. Without the limits it would be too easy IMO.
Enlighten me - why is the bottom entrance so important? fighting the creeper in another tunnel with a few blasters is hardly improving the game play? At issue here is that it takes an inordinate amount of time to destroy the very dense major pool of creeper. It is relatively trivial to dig through to the anti-creeper emitter and then to (slowly, due to energy constraints) build up a huge base of Makers to fill the two pathways the creeper will threaten to escape - but it can't be done fast. Your time is about 70 minutes and the best times is around 33 minutes - which I think is astoundingly fast, given the restrictions.
I personally like limits on units, and think that it CAN alot to most maps. That however is not the issue here in my oppinion. In my oppinion the problem here, is simply that there is too much creeper in the enclosed space. I believe that you might have accomplished the same with alot less creeper, interesting start, different finish then most maps, but without the tedious slog.
Im guessing that whoever beats the map in a very short amount of time is spending alot of time micro-managing the movement of charging Makers to be able to pump more then average anti creeper into the hole.
Going in from the lower entrance I bettered my time from about 74 minutes to under 56. It's true that the lower area lets you fit a lot more makers in without juggling them.
I took out the emitter and gateway in the room just below first, then let the gateway dig out the final chamber. I am not sure whether this is the faster method or not---doing it "all at once" might trim some time.
I also wonder whether attacking from both directions is the fastest, since that gives you two fronts and a couple dozen more tiles for makers to sit on. You could let the gateway open both undiggable sides of the big chamber from the bottom and then when you are up to it you can manually dig the second (top) side the rest of the way open.
This is in my top 10 favorite maps list, for sure.
I've done it a few times, and every time I work my way from the top. The secret is to use 60-million AC makers as bombs, and just throw them at the dense creeper over and over. You'll need more bombs than you think, so be patient!
I'm proud of my 33-minute time. I think there's only 2 custom maps where I have the best time. :)
When you say "use them as bombs", do you mean to actually let them be destroyed, just to make sure that when they burst their payload they're over the creeper, or what?
For my 60-minute time I feel like I'm constantly building makers even though I lose relatively few of them—just slowly growing the 8 or so groups that I cycle in to burst. and yet the map is far from full of them by the time I finish.
Don't let your makers die (well, you can, but it certainly won't be any good for your time). As long as all the anti-creeper from your makers is reaching the creeper, it doesn't really matter if you just produce or charge up the makers and burst them or whatever - just make sure all your makers are constantly either charging or producing at all times, and all the anti-creeper is being used. You should definitely have maxed out fire rate as the fire rate does effect the rate at which makers can use ore.
240 minutes? Holy Mackerel .
I suspect (but haven't the patience to try) that the best avenue would be to open both paths, but then to have sufficient anti-creeper stored up in makers to rapidly increase the amount of a-c in the upper passage to prevent being swamped. Not sure about the fields, but perhaps a substantial amount of a-c can be stored in the path used to open up the a-c emitter.
Not sure of one *has* to use a-c to push back the creeper in the bottom pathway. Cleaning it up would be time-consuming, so if not absolutely necessary, then that might be a time-saver. But again, I don't have the patience.
??? Lookit I just take these stupid slog almost unwinnable maps and just open in editor give myself what I want and go play, I have long stopped playing impossible or long drawn out maps that take two hours to finish, just aint worth my time
You are of course welcome to do so, and edit any level to suit your needs. Only thing to keep in mind is that you cannot submit a score on a map that has been edited.
I am apparently missing something obvious here, how do you get through the stone wall?
Look carefully. At least one "stone" tile is marked with a blue "x".
That means that a gateway sending out digging packets can dig through that tile. The digging packets need an path that is not obstructed by anti-creeper.
wow, I didn't know you could do that. this makes the map significantly easier :)