This topic is for discussion of map: Quagmire Quest 1: The Golden Maze (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=3582)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=3582) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=3582)
Author: UpperKEES (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=UpperKEES)
Desc:
This is part 1 of the Quagmire Quest: a series of Expert Only maps that will all feature a combination of new game mechanics, tough battles and a puzzle element. Only suitable for all-rounders!
The Minotaur of this crazoniumless maze was replaced by the Creeper. And worse: you can only build SAMs!
Title: | Quagmire Quest 1: The Golden Maze |
Difficulty: | Expert Only |
Creeper type: | Land & air |
Remarks: | This is part 1 of the Quagmire Quest: a series of Expert Only maps that will all feature a combination of new game mechanics, tough battles and a puzzle element. Only suitable for all-rounders!
The Minotaur of this crazoniumless maze was replaced by the Creeper. And worse: you can only build SAMs!
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Description: | The Quagmire Quest will lead you through various Creeper invested wetlands to the sacred grounds where your final task will await.
The golden maze gives and the golden maze takes. It will give you enough blasters to reach every corner, but it will take them back just as easily when you fail. Losing more than one blaster will probably mean the end of your mission, so save them quickly when something goes wrong.
Some advise:
- Deep is deeper; high is higher.
- Too far or too close; both are just as bad.
- Have a look at the map comments for more tips and don't hesitate to ask for one yourself.
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Download page: | Quagmire Quest 1: The Golden Maze (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=3582)
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Full size screen shot: | (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=1973;image)
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More maps: | See here for all Nice Jobs, Hard Art and Quagmire Quests 8) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.0) |
Very interesting.. id ask u how u did it.. but im sure i wouldnt be able to do it myself. good stuff.. :)
Quote from: Miss Melissa on November 29, 2010, 08:20:35 PM
Very interesting.. id ask u how u did it.. but im sure i wouldnt be able to do it myself. good stuff.. :)
Thanks. :) You could do it yourself if you would like to, see
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5177.0). Mopa42 did some nice research for us.
I found some more interesting features and will demonstrate their use in my other Quagmire Quest maps, so keep your eye on them. 8)
The first thing I'd do here is move Odin City to around the bend... right or wrong?
You could, if it fits there....
Not giving tips for this one yet though, as I think it's not too hard.
Well, it's different because the number of blasters you have can only decrease, for one thing.
KEES, take this as it is: an honest opinion on this map.
I was expecting some kind of surprise mid-game. but after you get estabilished and protected from the spores, its just a matter of moving forward an inch at a time to get the goal.
Surely it takes M4D 5|<1LL22 to finish under 25 minutes like you and MM did. But the puzzle element was ruined because there were plenty of blasters to juggle around.
Also lotsa rooms to build.
It is between hard to experts.
But congrats and here's hoping for another series of cool looking and fun to play maps.
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 29, 2010, 11:09:24 PM
Got this far, just more and more of the same from here on I imaginge, so I'm not going to go any further.
As you can tell from the limited number of blasters connecting to the last totems is obviously a lot harder than connecting to the first ones. Same goes for your energy consumption. Too bad you'll never know....
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 29, 2010, 11:09:24 PM
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this map is any different from the multitude of brute force maps out there. Admittedly a nicer background and custom heights, but otherwise just another "Berman Post"-type map.
Well, this clearly shows you haven't played those maps till the end as well, which I do understand by the way. Because there are major differences.
Spoiler
First of all blasters are very strong in confined spaces, so you can easily hold off lots of creeper with just 2 of them (just look at your own screeny). No mortars or drones required to deal with that.
Spoiler
Furthermore you would be able to notice some differences in energy consumption when you pay close attention. Just think of some recent forum discussions....
The emitters are only 6 intensity, how can you compare that to the 100 intensity emitters of Berman that keep you sealed in crazonium for half an hour? It was clearly my intention to fill up the maze with creeper without overflowing the walls, thus avoiding the need for crazonium. As it only takes a few blaster shots to clear the corridors you can't call this a brute force map (you seem to call anything above an intensity of 4 brute force).
Spoiler
The amount of energy you spend on 'capping' is entirely up to you....
Quote from: mszegedy on November 29, 2010, 11:15:06 PM
Well, it's different because the number of blasters you have can only decrease, for one thing.
Yep, the limited amount makes it different and the order in which you pick them up as well.
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
KEES, take this as it is: an honest opinion on this map.
That's all I can ask for! :)
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
I was expecting some kind of surprise mid-game. but after you get estabilished and protected from the spores, its just a matter of moving forward an inch at a time to get the goal.
Nah, no big surprises this time, I've saved that for some future maps. ;)
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
Surely it takes M4D 5|<1LL22 to finish under 25 minutes like you and MM did. But the puzzle element was ruined because there were plenty of blasters to juggle around.
Also lotsa rooms to build.
It is between hard to experts.
It's hard to finish, but it takes Expert skills to finish fast. The advises in the opening text give you a few clues why. Some interesting game mechanics apply here....
I could have given 1 blaster less, but then I would have had 10 complaints from people who lost a blaster after 45 minutes with only 5 minutes to go. They would rate with 1 star and never replay again. Obviously no fun, not for me and not for them.
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
But congrats and here's hoping for another series of cool looking and fun to play maps.
Thanks, I'll do my best. The next one will be a real puzzle (so maybe a map for you to skip ;)), but maps 3 & 4 will introduce something never seen before....
I didn't play it yet, but at the looks of this map it looks like a whole lot more than a simple brute force map, I think that with some careful moving and placement you can finish it faster than normally would be the case.
Looks really nice =)
And i have done some starts now ,
but i dont know how good it is .
atleast i survived the first spore attack =P And i hope there is'nt any stacked Emitters that suprice me , i hate them =P
but there is'nt if i got the other posts right =)
Spoiler
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1861/qq1goldenmazeafterfirst.jpg)
( hope this one works =P )
Let me know if i should delete this post !
Oh my start was okey , but i messed up later =P
Drinking beer and moved slowly againts the creepers =)
And heres an pic of how it is right now ,
but i wount be able to finnish the map ,
because i think i lost 5 Blasters already here =P
And if i only can lose 1 Blaster to finnish it , i'm screwed =D
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
And if i only can lose 1 Blaster to finnish it , i'm screwed =D
SPIFFEN, i think the margin for the full upgraded blasters and very good collector placement would be like 3 lost blasters to be unwinnable.
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 12:15:15 AM
Thanks, I'll do my best. The next one will be a real puzzle (so maybe a map for you to skip ;)), but maps 3 & 4 will introduce something never seen before....
Oh well, sorry about that mess the other day. Promise I will behave.
Yeah collector and Blaster placement matters to save energy ,
and i'm thinking that some Blasters should be used as connection to make an nice score =P
I got an so far 2 pic of the same gameplay ,
but loseing 5 blasters sucks =P
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:28:29 AM
I didn't play it yet, but at the looks of this map it looks like a whole lot more than a simple brute force map, I think that with some careful moving and placement you can finish it faster than normally would be the case.
Yes, that's the point, although I even didn't execute this perfectly myself when setting the current time during testing, because I applied a certain upgrade too soon. It also doesn't make the difference between winning and losing. Maybe I should have thought of a construction with limited energy, so it would be. Could be a nice idea for a future map.
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 06:14:52 AM
Looks really nice =)
Thanks Spiff! :) The tiles you see are not an existing texture, but have been generated by myself.
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 06:14:52 AM
And i hope there is'nt any stacked Emitters that suprice me , i hate them =P
Nope, no stacked emitters; I would warn for that, but the maps in this series will use much less of those kind of things. New series, so emphasis on different mechanics.
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 06:14:52 AM
Let me know if i should delete this post !
No, it's fine Spiff. I'm fine when people like to lose 5 blasters as well! Hahaha! :D
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 08:46:21 AM
And if i only can lose 1 Blaster to finnish it , i'm screwed =D
I'm afraid you are....
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 09:08:23 AM
SPIFFEN, i think the margin for the full upgraded blasters and very good collector placement would be like 3 lost blasters to be unwinnable.
I think you can lose 1 without too much trouble (for a reason stated above) and maybe you are able to finish with 2 less, but then you have to be very good. When you lost 3 or more blasters you can only complete the map by bridging, but as you all know I never require that to solve one of my maps. It was impossible to prevent it from being used (because I wanted the player to be able to move OC through the aisles), but I didn't care this time. If people like to solve it doing so that's fine with me. I didn't use it myself by the way....
If anyone can finish with just 25 of the 28 blasters without bridging I'm very much interested in a screenshot! I'm actually already interested in someone who finishes with just 26 (without bridging OC or destroying the blaster after connecting to the last totem; just leave it in its tower ;)).
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 09:08:23 AM
Oh well, sorry about that mess the other day. Promise I will behave.
I know you will; I liked the picture you posted in the comments for Kap's map! ;)
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 10:35:39 AM
Yeah collector and Blaster placement matters to save energy
Yep!
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 10:35:39 AM
and i'm thinking that some Blasters should be used as connection to make an nice score =P
I think most people will need at least 27 of them, so keeping 1 blaster in a tower to let it 'bridge' won't gain you that much.
Spoiler
If you want to bridge anyway, better use Odin City.
It certainly is expert only, but qua fun-factor this is your second worst map (Bored to Death included), yes, it's expert only, but it's way too frustrating when how many SAMs you have some spores can just pop up, land together and destroy half your network, and all "caps" (which happened to me twice), for your next maps please don't use spores anymore, they're a nice challenge in the beginning, but later on they just become irritating things that you'll forget about.
I now saw I just don't like brute force maps, regardless of the tactics that you need for it. One small inattention and boom there goes a collector connecting a whole part of the labyrinth or worse a blaster, and even though you can win with 3 of them less it still ruins the game.
I understand that some of you (or most of you) might love this map, but it just isn't my cup of tea, staying attentive for 30min, and keeping track of all possible blaster placements, spore progressions and such (which is even more hateful when the speed is only half of what it normally is (at the end it was only 14.7 frames/second).
I also hate spore attacks , thats why i overbuild sam's incase my Blasters are busy .
it sucks when an spore manage to get throw and destroy your connection .
But atleat you have info about the spore attacks here ,
so it's kind of okey , and yes it's easy to forget them , as always =P
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
staying attentive for 30min,
keeping track of all possible blaster placements,
spore progressions and such
That's KEES play style. I remember somewhere he said he plays with a finger on "P" key and pauses to micromanage his gameplay to the finest details.
For him this brute force maps are not a problem, he can spot one droplet of creeper going the wrong way the moment it thinks to go there, and react accordingly.
It is a clockwork engine.
But yes, spores are challenging in the beginning, annoying in the end. You end up putting so much SAM overlaying in the end that you can't see nothing over the white translucid circles.
Too bad there's no way to turn them off after a while
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
it's way too frustrating when how many SAMs you have some spores can just pop up, land together and destroy half your network, and all "caps" (which happened to me twice), for your next maps please don't use spores anymore, they're a nice challenge in the beginning, but later on they just become irritating things that you'll forget about.
As you probably know I use spores for only about 20% of my maps, because I don't like the random factor either. In a maze however, it becomes a very strategical element, because you can't always place your SAMs where you would like to.
Spoiler
My advise is to create tiny groups of them as close to the bottom of your screen as possible. There's only 5 of them, so you can eliminate the random factor completely!
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
I understand that some of you (or most of you) might love this map, but it just isn't my cup of tea
That's fine of course. :) I have learned over the past 36 maps I released that it's impossible to please everyone at the same time (although I tried!). It's not only the difference in experience, but also a matter of taste and we could talk endlessly about that. The only thing I can do is offer a wide variety of maps, so that's what I try. The other maps to come will be completely different, so I'm sure there will be one of your likings.
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
staying attentive for 30min, and keeping track of all possible blaster placements, spore progressions and such (which is even more hateful when the speed is only half of what it normally is (at the end it was only 14.7 frames/second).
Funny that you mention this, because Kap has been experimenting with this while he played this map yesterday (hence his score). It turns out that the path finding algorithm is responsible for these slow downs. You can actually play at double speed and still play slower than you normally would.
When you would change your network structure (more single connections and more dead-ends instead of a heavily interconnected network), you would be able to increase your frames per second from 14 to 36 FPS! So this is not something that has to do with the map (although you need to build quite some units to finish), but due to the program design. Luckily CW2 will calculate a packet path only once!
Quote from: SPIFFEN on November 30, 2010, 12:13:53 PM
atleat you have info about the spore attacks here ,
so it's kind of okey , and yes it's easy to forget them , as always =P
I think so yes; forgetting about them is your own mistake and part of the game. Almost every Tower Defence game has airborne enemies and they are always the worst ones, just like in real life! 8)
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 03:16:15 PM
Creeper type: Land & air
I always indicate if my maps contain spores, so you don't even have to download it when you don't like them. Most of my maps don't feature them however....
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 12:37:13 PM
That's KEES play style. I remember somewhere he said he plays with a finger on "P" key and pauses to micromanage his gameplay to the finest details.
For him this brute force maps are not a problem, he can spot one droplet of creeper going the wrong way the moment it thinks to go there, and react accordingly.
Yes, I do play rather precise, but I only pause about every 10-15 seconds. I know Kapoios for instance pauses almost every second, hence his great scores. A good score takes time and you have to be willing to sacrifice that or else just be happy with finishing the map.
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 12:37:13 PM
spores are challenging in the beginning, annoying in the end. You end up putting so much SAM overlaying in the end that you can't see nothing over the white translucid circles.
Well, I played this map about 5 times during testing and never ever built more than 10 SAMs. Just once a part of my network collapsed, and this was in the bottom right corner. I just conquered that part and forgot to move a SAM there, so 100% my own fault. It's exactly the reason I included them: punish stupid mistakes! :P
Well, I'm not willing nor able to spend enough time to get a top-score, but you could for instance stop the spore waves after Xminutes, cause at the end they only punish inattentiveness, which causes the player the shout "Goddamn you motherf............" and hate your map (what happened to me quite some times).
So I understand you can't make maps at everyone's liking, but you can try to make map at less people's hating.
But I'm mostly focussing on the bad points of your map, maybe without that path to the left from in the middle it would be more about strategy, as I love the lay-out of the paths on the right, as they kinda force you to paratroop and use good placement, but I can't focus on that if I have to take care about the other paths which also could go wrong.
What I'm missing though is some kind of story, the background are nice, I don't doubt the gameplay of the other maps will be great, but a story line would top it off. It's called the Quagmire Quest, but why?
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 01:10:44 PM
Next Please! =P
Quagmire Quests 2 to 4 are already done, but I will only release 1 of them per week, just like I used to do with my previous series. QQ-2 is one of my personal favourites, but like I said: you have to be able to appreciate a puzzle map (although some fighting is included as well).
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
So I understand you can't make maps at everyone's liking, but you can try to make map at less people's hating.
I just repeat this:
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 12:49:37 PM
Almost every Tower Defence game has airborne enemies and they are always the worst ones, just like in real life! 8)
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 29, 2010, 03:16:15 PM
Creeper type: Land & air
I always indicate if my maps contain spores, so you don't even have to download it when you don't like them. Most of my maps don't feature them however....
If you absolutely can't stand them, just skip the map. I really don't mind; I skip for instance crazonium maps myself, but never go posting in the comments:
"I don't like crazonium!". That would be like walking into the butcher shop and yelling:
"I'm a vegetarian!" ;D
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
But I'm mostly focussing on the bad points of your map, maybe without that path to the left from in the middle it would be more about strategy, as I love the lay-out of the paths on the right, as they kinda force you to paratroop and use good placement, but I can't focus on that if I have to take care about the other paths which also could go wrong.
I'm glad you mention this, because it's indeed an easy thing to do: mention the things you didn't like, in particular after some frustration. Especially people with some perfectionistic tendencies tend to do so (and believe me I know, because I used to do this myself! ;)). So nice to read you also liked some parts. :)
My personal believe is that maps that frustrated you for a while give most satisfaction in the end. This could be my personal preference, but hey, they're
my maps! ;)
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:14:44 PM
What I'm missing though is some kind of story, the background are nice, I don't doubt the gameplay of the other maps will be great, but a story line would top it off. It's called the Quagmire Quest, but why?
Also good you mention this. I have considered adding some more background story, but I didn't for 2 reasons:
1. I like my maps to be playable in any order (so you can pick the ones you like and skip the ones you think you'll hate). This will make more people play them, as there's no pressure to finish all of them. I believe this is one of the reasons that the Nice Job series became a success.
2. I like to concentrate on the game play. I can write very nice stories (and you know that better than anyone else here ;)), but I rather use my blog site for that. I know a lot of people even skip the opening text and artifacts because they only have 1 hour to play and just want to be fighting the creeper or solve a puzzle. Most people already read enough for their work and/or education.
But to clarify something: a
quagmire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog) is a wetland. It's also a synonym for a difficult, precarious, or entrapping position. :)
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 01:35:50 PM
If you absolutely can't stand them, just skip the map. I really don't mind; I skip for instance crazonium maps myself, but never go posting in the comments: "I don't like crazonium!". That would be like walking into the butcher shop and yelling: "I'm a vegetarian!" ;D
It's more like going to a buffet, yelling "I'm a vegetarian" but to get the delicious vegetables you have to eat the disgusting meat.
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 01:35:50 PM
1. I like my maps to be playable in any order (so you can pick the ones you like and skip the ones you think you'll hate). This will make more people play them, as there's no pressure to finish all of them. I believe this is one of the reasons that the Nice Job series became a success.
2. I like to concentrate on the game play. I can write very nice stories (and you know that better than anyone else here ;), but I rather use my blog site for that). I know a lot of people even skip the opening text and artifacts because they only have 1 hour to play and just want to be fighting the creeper or solve a puzzle. Most people already read enough for their work and/or education.
Well, skipping an artifact or intro is just a push of a button, if you don't want the story just press continue. But I know your writing talents so you should make a background story I think.
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:41:46 PM
It's more like going to a buffet, yelling "I'm a vegetarian" but to get the delicious vegetables you have to eat the disgusting meat.
And that's exactly the reason my buffet currently offers 36 dishes, probably about 26-30 of them without meat. ;) Enjoy the vegetables!
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:41:46 PM
Well, skipping an artifact or intro is just a push of a button, if you don't want the story just press continue. But I know your writing talents so you should make a background story I think.
Yeah, maybe a nice idea for another series (CW2?).
By the way, I forgot to mention an important third reason: I will introduce something completely new in QQ-3 and this already takes up 2 full screens of intro text plus 2 artifacts. There's just no room for more story there (although it's a story on its own).
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 01:51:55 PM
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:41:46 PM
It's more like going to a buffet, yelling "I'm a vegetarian" but to get the delicious vegetables you have to eat the disgusting meat.
And that's exactly the reason my buffet currently offers 36 dishes, probably about 26-30 of them without meat. ;) Enjoy the vegetables!
Yes, but I want this dish, I don't want to miss the first part of your new series. If I hadn't tried this I'd never be aware of the possibility of making 0 and 7 elevation terrain.
Quote from: Sqaz on November 30, 2010, 01:53:58 PM
Yes, but I want this dish, I don't want to miss the first part of your new series. If I hadn't tried this I'd never be aware of the possibility of making 0 and 7 elevation terrain.
Then chew quickly and swallow the meat for just one time. It won't kill vegetarians.... ;)
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 10:53:36 AM
If anyone can finish with just 18 of the 21 blasters without bridging I'm very much interested in a screenshot! I'm actually already interested in someone who finishes with just 19 (without bridging OC or destroying the blaster after connecting to the last totem; just leave it in its tower ;)).
I count 28 blasters, so I take it you meant "25 out of the 28 blasters". I have managed to do that. Here's what one can do:
Spoiler
Basically, I use two blasters to not-quite-Kap each of the 12 sets of emitters, except the one on the mid-right, which I haven't found a way to defend with only two blasters. The situation in the screeshot is stable, as I've let it run for 10 game minutes and no blasters or other structures got any damage. I cheated, by designing the left half of the network in the level editor, as I didn't want to play it properly again, because the large network needed is a bit taxing on my CPU and the game becomes slow. However, as I only did the left part in the editor and properly played the rest, it is definitely a situation reachable in game. I also counted the blasters 2-3 times, to make sure I didn't accidentally duplicate any! In case you wonder how I managed to approach the last set of emitters without an extra blaster, I left the one on the left last (the one that in the screeshot doesn't have charged totems) which can be defended by one blaster but needs two to be Kapped.
I love these new spoiler boxes. Though, admittedly, my experience is that once I get used to them, I simply click them without thinking so they don't fulfil their purpose very well!
True Kap, but I haven't played this map yet, nor have I looked at the spoilers! :P It is up to everyone to hold themselves back enough to not press the button. . . :D
Quote from: Kapoios on November 30, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
I count 28 blasters, so I take it you meant "25 out of the 28 blasters".
Oh, I must have lived with a very old number in my head. The initial version only had 21 and I created this map a while ago.... Will correct this in my previous posts, thanks! :)
Quote from: Kapoios on November 30, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
In case you wonder how I managed to approach the last set of emitters without an extra blaster, I left the one on the left last (the one that in the screeshot doesn't have charged totems) which can be defended by one blaster but needs two to be Kapped.
Smart! This is something I should actually have made part of the puzzle, even when this would have kept some people from completing it....
Quote from: Kapoios on November 30, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
I love these new spoiler boxes. Though, admittedly, my experience is that once I get used to them, I simply click them without thinking so they don't fulfil their purpose very well!
Quote from: Colin on November 30, 2010, 06:37:30 PM
It is up to everyone to hold themselves back enough to not press the button. . . :D
Yep, I like them too, but for my next map I'm gonna ask anyone not to post spoilers for the first 2-3 weeks, or maybe not at all. It takes just one weak moment to click them and ruin the puzzle, so I rather add them later on when everybody had a chance to think for themselves. The map won't run away. ;)
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 06:50:34 PM
Oh, I must have lived with a very old number in my head. The initial version only had 21 and I created this map a while ago.... Will correct this in my previous posts, thanks! :)
I experimented a bit and it turns out I also found a way to defend that mid-right set of emitters with only 2 blasters. So, although not optimal at all for a highscore (you should probably use all your blasters for a good time, or at least leave only 1-2 in their homes so that they can serve as a kind of bridge between areas to make distances a bit smaller). I have a new screenshot using only 24 out of 28. This time, some of the extra 4 blasters I'm not using are not in their little homes, but sitting beside OC disarmed and deactivated. That's because I used them to do some shuffling more easily, but the situation is still reachable without ever removing them from their homes, since you could do that early when you still have plenty of them. Note that this time some creeper leaks near that area. However, it "evaporates" quickly enough not to damage any structures. Again, the situation is stable, since I let it run for ~10 minutes, while going to the store to get booze and back, and everything was alive and kicking when I returned!
Quote from: Kapoios on November 30, 2010, 07:13:07 PM
I have a new screenshot using only 24 out of 28.
Heheh! :D I like it how you can make a challenge out of everything! That's my kind of looking at things as well!
Quote from: Kapoios on November 30, 2010, 07:13:07 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 06:50:34 PM
Oh, I must have lived with a very old number in my head. The initial version only had 21 and I created this map a while ago.... Will correct this in my previous posts, thanks! :)
I experimented a bit and it turns out I also found a way to defend that mid-right set of emitters with only 2 blasters. So, although not optimal at all for a highscore (you should probably use all your blasters for a good time, or at least leave only 1-2 in their homes so that they can serve as a kind of bridge between areas to make distances a bit smaller). I have a new screenshot using only 24 out of 28. This time, some of the extra 4 blasters I'm not using are not in their little homes, but sitting beside OC disarmed and deactivated. That's because I used them to do some shuffling more easily, but the situation is still reachable without ever removing them from their homes, since you could do that early when you still have plenty of them. Note that this time some creeper leaks near that area. However, it "evaporates" quickly enough not to damage any structures. Again, the situation is stable, since I let it run for ~10 minutes, while going to the store to get booze and back, and everything was alive and kicking when I returned!
Spoiler
You can connect those three totems from the end of the upper right path by moving the city, thus saving another 2 blasters.
Quote from: Sqaz on December 01, 2010, 12:36:45 AM
You can connect those three totems from the end of the upper right path by moving the city, thus saving another 2 blasters.
Yep, I already wrote that here:
Quote from: UpperKEES on November 30, 2010, 10:53:36 AM
When you lost 3 or more blasters you can only complete the map by bridging, but as you all know I never require that to solve one of my maps. It was impossible to prevent it from being used (because I wanted the player to be able to move OC through the aisles), but I didn't care this time. If people like to solve it doing so that's fine with me. I didn't use it myself by the way....
If anyone can finish with just 25 of the 28 blasters without bridging I'm very much interested in a screenshot! I'm actually already interested in someone who finishes with just 26 (without bridging OC or destroying the blaster after connecting to the last totem; just leave it in its tower ;)).
Well I finally finished it! Thanks for another great map KEES! ;D
I also lost a blaster somewhere in there when I wasn't looking, but
I was able to makeup for that mistake. ;)
Quote from: Colin on December 01, 2010, 01:57:55 AM
Well I finally finished it! Thanks for another great map KEES! ;D
Thanks Colin, glad you liked it! :)
Quote from: Colin on December 01, 2010, 01:57:55 AM
I also lost a blaster somewhere in there when I wasn't looking, but
I was able to makeup for that mistake. ;)
Well, the margin seems to be a blaster or three, so that should indeed work out fine.
Quote from: Sqaz on December 01, 2010, 12:36:45 AM
Spoiler
You can connect those three totems from the end of the upper right path by moving the city, thus saving another 2 blasters.
Yeah, I know, but I was going for the "no bridging allowed" sort of challenge/request for a screeshot by KEES. I wonder if those spoiler boxes work within quotes.
Edit: Indeed they do!
KEES, I absolutely love the look of this map. It's pretty amazing
Thanks Kam! :)
I'm still experimenting with new graphics that enhance the looks of a map and still keep it playable. It's important to be able to see where the creeper is, where you can build or not and to be able to distinguish between the various terrain levels. The fact that you can't set the level tint for the new 0 and 6 terrain heights makes it a lot harder to create a custom background for it, as it unfortunately becomes impossible to apply custom shading.
The beginning was the hardest to figure out but, once you got past that, it wasn't too bad. I made one bad move when trying to cap the last creeper farm and I had to retreat a bit adding a solid 5 minutes of work. Doh!
Good times. On my slow ass computer, it took about 3 hours to finish even though my game time was something like 33 minutes. Lol.
Also, like the custom textures. Good job, man.
BTW, people are awfully opinionated around here. As a newer visitor, it is certainly a bit of a turn off. Everyone needs to chill out and realize their opinion speaks only for themselves and stop acting like they were granted some God given right to tell people how to make their FREE CUSTOM maps. Make your own if you don't like what is out there. And for the record, I have no problem with spore waves. ;) :P
(Also UpperKEES always posts whether there are any in his map. Why would you waste people's time posting if you knew it had them to start with?)
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 01, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
BTW, people are awfully opinionated around here. As a newer visitor, it is certainly a bit of a turn off. Everyone needs to chill out and realize their opinion speaks only for themselves and stop acting like they were granted some God given right to tell people how to make their FREE CUSTOM maps. Make your own if you don't like what is out there. And for the record, I have no problem with spore waves. ;) :P
Nothing offensive here, but I really thought the comments on a map where meant to tell whether you like the map or not, and spores are a part of that criteria. If someone can't say his opinion because the map says that it's in there I think you take away a part of our freedom of speech. I could for example make a map, write in the description that it's awfull, and yell at everyone that they are awfully opinionated because I clearly said that my map was bad, so why do they think they're allowed to complain.
Please don't understand me wrong, but if there are things that someone doesn't like about a map he should say so, and thus letting the map maker know that that type of gameplay doesn't please him. This is not because he thinks he's granted a god given right to tell people how to make their maps, but a help for the map-creator, cause if many people say so, it might be a good idea to make that element less present in his map.
And I must honestly say you are a bit hypocrite yourself, just because you don't mind the spores doesn't mean noone is allowed to find them frustrating.
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 01, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
Make your own if you don't like what is out there.
Everyone that complained has already made some Custom Maps, but if you go for a dinner at Kees' exquisite Map Restaurant, you expect quality, and even though the quality of this map is higher than most (99%) of the Custom Maps I expected more (or actually less ;)), but this still keeps him the best CW map maker the world has ever known, this just shows that everyone can make mistakes (even if it are just little ones that some people don't see as mistakes).
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 01, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
The beginning was the hardest to figure out but, once you got past that, it wasn't too bad. I made one bad move when trying to cap the last creeper farm and I had to retreat a bit adding a solid 5 minutes of work. Doh!
Good times. On my slow ass computer, it took about 3 hours to finish even though my game time was something like 33 minutes. Lol.
Yep, that path finding algorithm indeed slows down the game a lot. With a dense network with lots of interconnections like you will probably build for this map this becomes very noticeable. This is not due to the amount of units! When you would build the same amount on a map with less connections between them, you would be able to play much faster. Kapoios tested this and when you would build less collectors (that connect to anything), but instead would build
collector - reactor - collector or
collector - speed - collector, you would experience a more than double increase of game speed! I think this is the main reason Virgil stepped away from this for CW2.
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 01, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
Also, like the custom textures. Good job, man.
Thanks Kharnellius! :)
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 01, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
BTW, people are awfully opinionated around here. As a newer visitor, it is certainly a bit of a turn off. Everyone needs to chill out and realize their opinion speaks only for themselves and stop acting like they were granted some God given right to tell people how to make their FREE CUSTOM maps. Make your own if you don't like what is out there. And for the record, I have no problem with spore waves. ;) :P
(Also UpperKEES always posts whether there are any in his map. Why would you waste people's time posting if you knew it had them to start with?)
Yes, people are. I don't mind some constructive criticism however, especially when it comes from experienced map makers. I'm never too old to learn.
When it comes to taste however, we could discuss endlessly without ever agreeing. I know what most people think of spores and that's why I only include them when they really add something (in
my opinion) and try to limit the amount of them.
This is exactly why I warned you for your first map. Not to teach you a lesson, but to prevent you from being disappointed about the comments after a lot of hard work. I think some people (and you will quickly learn their names) tend to only comment on negative things. When they did like a map, they don't even take the effort to post a compliment or a brief thank you. Something you maybe can expect from a 12 year old, but in fact it's often older players doing so! You'll get used to it however and will realize the same thing happens all over the internet. People often seem a little less tactful when typing their comments than when they would give their opinion face to face in real life.
Quote from: Sqaz on December 01, 2010, 04:07:39 PM
Nothing offensive here, but I really thought the comments on a map where meant to tell whether you like the map or not, and spores are a part of that criteria. If someone can't say his opinion because the map says that it's in there I think you take away a part of our freedom of speech. I could for example make a map, write in the description that it's awfull, and yell at everyone that they are awfully opinionated because I clearly said that my map was bad, so why do they think they're allowed to complain.
Please don't understand me wrong, but if there are things that someone doesn't like about a map he should say so, and thus letting the map maker know that that type of gameplay doesn't please him. This is not because he thinks he's granted a god given right to tell people how to make their maps, but a help for the map-creator, cause if many people say so, it might be a good idea to make that element less present in his map.
And I must honestly say you are a bit hypocrite yourself, just because you don't mind the spores doesn't mean noone is allowed to find them frustrating.
Sqaz, you
are a bit offensive. Didn't sleep well? :P I think you are also a bit stubborn. Not because of your opinion, but because you don't seem to realize that some things are a matter of taste. You can state your opinion once and then it's clear to anyone, but I get more and more the impression that you are entirely missing the point. It seems I have to repeat the same things over and over and I don't like that. Why play a map that contains spores, when you know it does and you don't like them? Play it and don't complain, or just skip the map. It's that easy.
Taste can not be forced onto anyone. Some people like puzzles, other don't. Some people like long intense fights, others rather finish in 5 minutes. There is no wrong and there is no right here. Both are good!
Quote from: Sqaz on December 01, 2010, 04:07:39 PM
Everyone that complained has already made some Custom Maps, but if you go for a dinner at Kees' exquisite Map Restaurant, you expect quality, and even though the quality of this map is higher than most (99%) of the Custom Maps I expected more (or actually less ;)), but this still keeps him the best CW map maker the world has ever known, this just shows that everyone can make mistakes (even if it are just little ones that some people don't see as mistakes).
The funny thing is that this map indeed contains a mistake. The mistake is that it is too easy to my likings. I should have offered at least 1, but probably 2 blasters less, making the puzzle element more important. Or limit the amount of energy, which would force the player to think more about the 'capping' instead of just adding some more reactors and finish 2-3 minutes later. One of the things I'm very happy with, are the spores! ;)
When is something a mistake? When a map does not turn out as the map maker
himself intended! When my map works out exactly as I like, I don't care what any other person says about it!
Please realize your opinion is just your opinion. One out of almost 7 billion people! It's not very important and neither is mine, especially when it comes to taste. Let's be happy that tastes vary so much; this makes the (Creeper) World a lot more colourful! :)
Hi all,
I started this map then ran out of time and had to quit. I wanted one hint but did not want to read the thread and get all the spoilers.
What I want to know is do you need to leave one or more blasters in their original positions as relays. I was working on getting the city tot he center with at least blaster/relays nearby still in their little divots, but not sure if I am making things unnecessaraly hard for myself.
on the ohter hand I dont want to pull all the blasters out and then find out 30 min later that I cant seem to finish the map because packet routing is too slow.
hint please! ;D
Nope, you don't need to leave them in their towers to finish, although it may be convenient to do so at the start of the map to obtain the first upgrade quicker and unlock some more blasters.
Tip: once the game slows down considerably, you can just keep playing at double speed!
thanks for the help Mr. Kees.
I always get a smile on my face when you release a new map
even if I can't seem to beat some of them
(@%#&@& xrays)
Quote from: fraterpotens on December 01, 2010, 09:13:39 PM
thanks for the help Mr. Kees.
You're welcome. :)
Spoiler
By the way: moving Odin City closer to the frontline (where most of your blasters will be) will also speed up the game, as the packets will have to travel less and calculate their route less often.
Quote from: fraterpotens on December 01, 2010, 09:13:39 PM
I always get a smile on my face when you release a new map
I assume that's a positive thing.... ;)
Quote from: fraterpotens on December 01, 2010, 09:13:39 PM
even if I can't seem to beat some of them
(@%#&@& xrays)
Yeah,
X-Ray Visor (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=4354) is a pretty weird and tough one. Don't hesitate to ask for a few hints in the comments of that map as well if you like. :)
Sorry for off-topic but, I nominate this map for the new most comments.
Quote from: UpperKEES on December 01, 2010, 04:50:07 PM
Sqaz, you are a bit offensive. Didn't sleep well? :P I think you are also a bit stubborn. Not because of your opinion, but because you don't seem to realize that some things are a matter of taste. You can state your opinion once and then it's clear to anyone, but I get more and more the impression that you are entirely missing the point. It seems I have to repeat the same things over and over and I don't like that. Why play a map that contains spores, when you know it does and you don't like them? Play it and don't complain, or just skip the map. It's that easy.
Taste can not be forced onto anyone. Some people like puzzles, other don't. Some people like long intense fights, others rather finish in 5 minutes. There is no wrong and there is no right here. Both are good!
It seems like you indeed don't understand the point of my posts clearly.
I only complained about the spores once, that was in the first post after finishing the map, if I can't say what I didn't like about the map what are the comments for then. The next posts I only
tried to explain why, cause you might already have noticed that a lot of my maps feature spores, so I don't hate spores nor do I skip maps to complain them, I coumd tell you once again why, but then you'd prabably call me stubborn again :P.
And then, someone tells we're all opinionated here, which is true, it would be stupid if everyone would agree with the gameplay. But then I hear those assumptions, that I can't say anything about this map, just need to
chill down, and even that I act like a twelve year old.
I respect everyones opinion, I never meant to write any comments after the first three, but I can't just sit down and refrain from writing when my words get turned and twisted so it seems like if you'd read only these comments I'm a grumpy old man, searching the forum in a quest to make the most hateful comments on every map that contains spores.
The calling me stubborn is only a self-furfilling profecy (and a good way to get the most comments :P), I'm not planning to post any more on this topic, so before you provocation towards me please try to, atleast try to please, understand the previous comments so I don't have to come again to set everything straight and so heading into vicious circle.
It wasn't directed to only you.
I also have a bit of a problem to say he made a mistake for a design element that was intentionally part of the map. I will assume you didn't mean to make it sound that harsh for the sake of keeping this thread from going any further OT lol. :P
I guess, it just has rubbed me wrong ever since someone said I made a mistake by including Spore Waves in my map as if somehow my careful creation of 30 different waves was a catastrophic series of "mis-clicks" of me hitting "add spore wave" when I actually meant to hit "save map". :D
A mistake is something that makes a map not work, or winnable, etc., not something someone personally doesn't enjoy.
That'd be like me calling "Barbie Horse Adventures: Wild Horse Rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbie_Horse_Adventures:_Wild_Horse_Rescue)" a mistake. While I clearly wouldn't play the game (or would I?), that doesn't make it a mistake. ;)
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 02, 2010, 01:29:22 AM
That'd be like me calling "Barbie Horse Adventures: Wild Horse Rescue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbie_Horse_Adventures:_Wild_Horse_Rescue)" a mistake. While I clearly wouldn't play the game (or would I?), that doesn't make it a mistake. ;)
You certainly seem to know a lot about it...
Quote from: UpperKEES on December 01, 2010, 04:50:07 PM
Yep, that path finding algorithm indeed slows down the game a lot. With a dense network with lots of interconnections like you will probably build for this map this becomes very noticeable. This is not due to the amount of units! When you would build the same amount on a map with less connections between them, you would be able to play much faster. Kapoios tested this and when you would build less collectors (that connect to anything), but instead would build collector - reactor - collector or collector - speed - collector, you would experience a more than double increase of game speed! I think this is the main reason Virgil stepped away from this for CW2.
Ah, good to know. Must keep this in mind for the future.
Quote from: Kapoios on December 02, 2010, 01:37:06 AM
You certainly seem to know a lot about it...
Do you know how to beat the "Save the Furry Kitten" level?
Quote from: Sqaz on December 02, 2010, 01:00:44 AM
it seems like if you'd read only these comments I'm a grumpy old man, searching the forum in a quest to make the most hateful comments on every map that contains spores.
Like Kharnellius I also didn't direct only to you (and not even to comments for this map in particular). I referred to comments on many other maps, even way back. One name that comes to mind is HiredGun; he used to post terrible comments for every map he disliked, but I think he improved on that recently. I also referred to some comments on Kapoios' and Kharnellius' latest maps. You replied rather quickly however (even before I could), so I guess you must have felt addressed at least a little.
I know you are no grumpy old man and you also know I really like your maps, especially the historical & geographical ones you created earlier. The only thing I say is: respect other people's taste. So many people, so many different preferences and that's a good thing.
And by the way: yes, I do like comments on my maps (like anybody else), but I rather discuss possible solutions and used game mechanics.... ;)
Quote from: Kharnellius on December 02, 2010, 01:29:22 AM
A mistake is something that makes a map not work, or winnable, etc., not something someone personally doesn't enjoy.
Yep, you got my point. :)
UpperKEES,
I am definitely a "grumpy old man" (Retired Chief Warrant Officer) and I think your maps are outstanding.
There are several (including this one) that I haven't been able to crack yet - but that is entirely based on MY abilities - not yours.
On several occasions I have noticed some whiney-a$$ed complaints about some aspect of a map - and I always wonder if ever it never occurs to some people to just move on down the road and try a different map.
I also notice that the biggest complainers have never had the 'nards' to build their own map.
As I mentioned before, if you and SPIFFEN would slow down just a bit - I might be able to get more real work done.
Thank you for what you do around here.
dbit
:)
Quote from: DethbyIT on December 17, 2010, 10:13:08 AM
UpperKEES,
I am definitely a "grumpy old man" (Retired Chief Warrant Officer) and I think your maps are outstanding.
There are several (including this one) that I haven't been able to crack yet - but that is entirely based on MY abilities - not yours.
These are the kind of grumpy old men that I like! ;D
Quote from: DethbyIT on December 17, 2010, 10:13:08 AM
On several occasions I have noticed some whiney-a$$ed complaints about some aspect of a map - and I always wonder if ever it never occurs to some people to just move on down the road and try a different map.
I also notice that the biggest complainers have never had the 'nards' to build their own map.
Oh well, at a certain moment you know who it comes from.... ;)
Quote from: DethbyIT on December 17, 2010, 10:13:08 AM
As I mentioned before, if you and SPIFFEN would slow down just a bit - I might be able to get more real work done.
I actually did between August and November, because I was playing a lot of Chronom & tournament maps. Nothings beats creating ans playing custom maps however, so I couldn't resist doing another series. I also think Spiff slowed down a little lately, but real work and CW won't ever go well together.... ;)
Quote from: DethbyIT on December 17, 2010, 10:13:08 AM
Thank you for what you do around here.
dbit
:)
Thank you for all the compliments and of course even more for playing! :)