This topic is for discussion of map: The Temple of Moloch (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=3572)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=3572) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=3572)
Author: Kapoios (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=Kapoios)
Desc:
In this mission you are required to save a group of babies that were meant to be sacrificed to the creeper. Can you save the infants?
This is a hard puzzle map. It does not involve direct fight with the creeper and plays with the notions of infinite and zero energy. Save those babies!
A few more comments about this map:
This map is based on the idea that you generate large amounts of energy during the first few minutes and basically zero energy during the second part.
It has a few features that I consider very novel. It features a "device" that sucks up all the energy you produce so that you can't even spare one packet for anything else in the map during the second part. It also uses the Thor in a way that it hasn't been before, utilising a disadvantage of it. The solution is also very unlike anything you would do in a normal CW map.
Tedious things like bridging or pausing every second are not required to beat this map. There is a lot of redundancy in time, energy etc., so that the player doesn't need to do anything in a "frame-perfect" or "pixel-perfect" way. Once a solution is discovered, it can be put into practice with no sweating.
Please feel free to ask for hints here. Don't forget that it is a puzzle map and meant to be rather hard. The normal methods do not work here.
nice map =)
I hope you'll create many other puzzle maps.
What a superb map! 8)
Loved it from start till the end during my numerous attempts to find the solution. Very nice use of various game mechanics in an unusual way; this is what original puzzle maps are all about!
This is the very first time that I wished a map contained
more crazonium! ;D
Like probably most other players I was completely on the wrong track during my first attempts and even thought I found an unintended way to finish the map, but that turned out to be a huge mistake. Looking at the ratings so far this is probably the moment that people with less patience (and/or brains) give up and rate this CW gem with one star. Don't worry about that; there's always a bunch of people who think they should be able to finish a map on their first try, even though the description states that it's a hard puzzle.
What I also liked is that this puzzle doesn't require perfect timing or bridging and such to be able to solve it. There's enough time and energy (for a while ;)) to build everything required and there's no need to use one specific lay-out.
Quote from: hi on November 25, 2010, 12:19:55 PM
I hope you'll create many other puzzle maps.
Yes, please! :)
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 26, 2010, 02:04:51 AM
Waiting 4+ minutes ever time is kind of boring, so I'll pass.
With double speed it's only 2 minutes and believe me when I say that you really need to do some very important things within that time frame. When you're fast doing so, you only have to wait for 40 seconds (20 seconds with double speed). I think that's not too much to ask for....
What a great puzzle. Not that I have finished it ;D
I'd say I've spent an hour and a half on it and going off to think about it as I can't figure a route that delays the packets to Thor enough so there must be something else or whatever. I am not looking for hints by the way, the puzzle is spoiled when you open the envelope.
Anyway, getting hi and UpperKees to rate it really makes the other ratings irrelevant. You must have spent an age getting the balance right in this - for instance the effort to play with the emitters to prefectly must have been a real pain. Really appreciate it.
I really can't believe that is your first map it is so perfectly constructed.
Karsten you wuss, go and figure it out :D
It was tough, but with a little help, I got to the end! :)
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 26, 2010, 02:04:51 AM
Seems interesting ,but my bottom survival pods got destroyed a few times well before the creeper has managed to erode the walls above them.
The reason is most likely one of these: You either tried to build something after your collection fell to 0.8 (after the factory explosion), or you disabled the "creeper switch" in the penultimate aisle. I'm saying that because it seems that many people thought that the switch is bad, but it is there to help you (I tried to make that very clear in the artifact). It is in fact perfectly correct in the moment it decides to disconnect the blaster otherwise you will waste energy and the bottom baby will die. So, don't put a relay that connects directly to the blaster except the one on the "device". Remember, after your collection drops, you can't even spare one packet of energy.
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 26, 2010, 02:04:51 AM
Waiting 4+ minutes ever time is kind of boring, so I'll pass.
In a play that beats the map, you will be pretty busy during most of those 4 minutes. As KEES said, you only have about half a minute to spare and only if you do everything very well. I could have made it up to 40 seconds shorter, but that extra time available is intentional, as I wanted everything to be possible to do in a very leisure and suboptimal way that doesn't require precision building, as the point of the map is not that. The point is to solve the puzzle, which I find hard and interesting by itself, not to be precise and perfect. The extra time also allows some more small variations in the solution.
I think, however, that even if you don't do anything during that time (eg. if you want to observe what happens to think about the solution) it's still not that bad. Double speed is your friend in that case and you can put double speed, come to chat, go back to CW when you hear BOOM and observe. Waiting 2 minutes is not that horrible, and there are very nice blokes in chat!
I do recommend that you give it another try (of course, it's my map, what else would I do!? :P). The solution is very satisfying.
Quote from: RichieRich on November 26, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
What a great puzzle. Not that I have finished it ;D
Thank you very much!
Quote from: RichieRich on November 26, 2010, 09:43:25 AM
You must have spent an age getting the balance right in this - for instance the effort to play with the emitters to prefectly must have been a real pain. Really appreciate it.
I really can't believe that is your first map it is so perfectly constructed.
Thank you again! Designing required EXTREME precision (but solving doesn't as I keep repeating!), lots of calculations and very thorough testing. The precise "energy sucking" blaster arrangement at the bottom is far from trivial. Those emitters were indeed a great pain, especially because I was initially mistaken about how they work. I thought that emitters of 0.2 frequency will fire 5 times per second, but they actually fire every 7 frames, i.e. 5.14 times per second. This is a huge difference in this precise design and I literally spent hours trying to understand why the baby dies, when the math says that it should be surviving.
Quote from: burguertime on November 27, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
You should have given a little margin on the energy drain blaster phase, to give it a collection rate of 1.05 or something.
It has explicitly been designed to have no margin at all!
Quote from: burguertime on November 27, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
I deviated 3 packets to Thor to make it finish, and bam! baby blew. And it weren't even 3 in a row. i left several ammo packets through between each build packet.
This is supposed to happen. You shouldn't even have 1 packet to spare; that's what this puzzle is about! You need to find a different way to send that packet.... ;)
Quote from: burguertime on November 27, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
I am sure i won't try counting 159 packets to thor again. Or trying this map again.
No need to count when you play it smart. I have also been counting once during my attempts, but it isn't necessary, especially when you realize you have more than enough time to execute your solution..... if you found it! :P
Quote from: burguertime on November 27, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
Sorry I disliked this map so much.
That's ok. One man's meat is another man's poison. However, I do think you misunderstood a few bits.
Quote
The only good thing i got out of it is the discovery that OC will send packets to Thor even after the 160th (contrary to other buildings) left city, up to the moment that 160th packet arrived at the thor building site.
This is not the city sending more packets. This is a result of the packet control bug (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5259.0). But that's ok for this map. I was aware of it and I've made sure that this bug will neither help you nor make the solution impossible. Hopefully it will be fixed soon anyway.
Quote
You should have given a little margin on the energy drain blaster phase, to give it a collection rate of 1.05 or something. I deviated 3 packets to Thor to make it finish, and bam! baby blew. And it weren't even 3 in a row. i left several ammo packets through between each build packet.
This is exactly what you are misunderstanding. KEES, as usual, has covered this very nicely. The point of the map is exactly that. That you CAN'T divert packets to Thor to finish. No matter how precise you are, you will not be able to send even one packet to Thor after 4:00 without dying. Let alone 3! The energy collection and depletion is regulated very precisely, to many decimal digits, to make that impossible. Any more, and you could actually send one packet to Thor making the solution you imagined possible. But it's not meant to be possible and I'm confident it isn't, or you could pwn my map. Which you can't. There's something else you have to do. Therefore, try to think of another trick. Don't forget that it is a puzzle. A hard one.
Whew!, I finally did it. This is one very hard map. But I enjoyed getting to the solution very much. I have to thank you Kapoios, for making this map for all of us to play. It must have extremely difficult.
One thing I must emphasize, is something that has already been said many times. You should be very busy the first 4 minutes, without too much time left to spare. One more thing I will say, is that the answer is elegantly simple, and counterintuative, because you would not want to do this in any ordinary map.
Now, if you will excuse me, I did not spend who knows how many hours on this map just to get third place. I can drop a few more seconds... ;)
EDIT: I guess I will stick with third, I am happy with 7:00. :)
Quote from: burguertime on November 28, 2010, 05:16:26 PM
"the trick" is buried in the forum archives, been used in a couple other maps, that you guys know of it.
To my knowledge, the trick required certainly hasn't been used before in a map or mentioned in the forums. If it has, I would be very interested to see that map!
You might think that one needs to exploit some bug or obscure mechanic, but this is not at all the case. I'm certain that you have all the knowledge you need to solve it, and searching the forums will not help. It's only a matter of getting the right idea to solve the puzzle.
Quote from: burguertime on November 28, 2010, 05:16:26 PM
I won't search. Dislike puzzles anyway.
That's perfectly fine. Some of us like them :). I think it's great that CW has this kind of versatility that you can make very different kinds of maps.
Yes, you are right, My apologies. It seems I have unconsciously entered this cycle:
http://funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/1025825/How+The+Internet+Works/
Quote from: Gaara on November 29, 2010, 04:46:52 AM
Could also be "stop being an ass and if you don't like puzzle maps, don't post on the puzzle map discussion thread."
But so did you.
"A bizarre need to prove his intelligence to strangers..."
Ok, I am having a hard time understanding what your messages are saying. I don't understand what the switch is supposed to do. Is this by design? I find the dialog hard to follow. I honestly don't really understand what OPS and Commander are trying to say to each other. I've read over them a hundred times and it's not making sense.
I realize I have to delay Thor's build so that the creeper doesn't get destroyed so it can be used to break down the walls. But, I'm not sure what the blasters at the bottom are supposed to do and what this switch is all about.
I don't want everything revealed, but for crying out loud what is this switch?
Quote from: Kharnellius on November 29, 2010, 11:39:41 AM
Ok, I am having a hard time understanding what your messages are saying. I don't understand what the switch is supposed to do. Is this by design? I find the dialog hard to follow. I honestly don't really understand what OPS and Commander are trying to say to each other. I've read over them a hundred times and it's not making sense.
I realize I have to delay Thor's build so that the creeper doesn't get destroyed so it can be used to break down the walls. But, I'm not sure what the blasters at the bottom are supposed to do and what this switch is all about.
I don't want everything revealed, but for crying out loud what is this switch?
Try to connect the blaster and let the game play and observe what happens. At some point, the emitter near the top blaster will stop. The switch, which is a relay, will explode, so the blaster disconnects and cannot request more energy. If it would, a baby would die.
The whole setup at the two bottom aisles is to make sure you have zero energy after 4:00. No excess and no deficit. All you need to know is that it doesn't let you send a packet anywhere after a point. You can ignore the details.
Such a setup was necessary, because Odin City always produces some energy and I had to remove it somehow for the puzzle to work. I could have skipped the switch, but then the player would have to deactivate and disconnect the top blaster at exactly the right time, but I didn't want such extreme amount of precision to be required for the solution, so it's done automatically.
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 11:59:59 AM
Putting aside the flame above, and trying to help my fellow CreeperWorlder:
[...]
Thank you very much for changing your position. Much appreciated. I would like to ask you to remove the last paragraph from your post as I think it's a bit too spoilery. The point of the riddle is to figure out exactly that.
Quote from: Gaara on November 29, 2010, 04:46:52 AM
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 03:25:49 AM
Your hint "it involves the concepts of infinite and zero energy" is misleading. Your factory does not give infinite energy.
It instead should be
"blahlblah."
Could also be "stop being an ass and if you don't like puzzle maps, don't post on the puzzle map discussion thread."
Having a bad day at school?
Quote from: Karsten75 on November 29, 2010, 06:40:38 PM
Quote from: Gaara on November 29, 2010, 04:46:52 AM
Quote from: burguertime on November 29, 2010, 03:25:49 AM
Your hint "it involves the concepts of infinite and zero energy" is misleading. Your factory does not give infinite energy.
It instead should be
"blahlblah."
Could also be "stop being an ass and if you don't like puzzle maps, don't post on the puzzle map discussion thread."
Having a bad day at school?
No, burguertime was spoiling the story and solution in his post.
Quote from: Gaara on November 30, 2010, 02:40:06 AM
No, burguertime was spoiling the story and solution in his post.
I admit I got a LOT frustrated with this map and vented some of it in the boards, for that i am
deeply sorry. My apologies to anyone that had to bear with my ranting. I even deleted the posts.
But as much for spoiling the solution??? Unless one post about 3-4 screen shots it cannot be done. This puzzle was greatly done and it is like sudoku:
saying you have to write numbers 1 through 9 in the cells so they follow these rules won't spoil the solution because you have to figure out WHERE each number goes.
Remainder of the post removed by request of author. Not of much use unless gaara edits his post below too.
Quote from: burguertime on November 30, 2010, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: Gaara on November 30, 2010, 02:40:06 AM
No, burguertime was spoiling the story and solution in his post.
I admit I got a LOT frustrated with this map and vented some of it in the boards, for that i am deeply sorry. My apologies to anyone that had to bear with my ranting. I even deleted the posts.
But as much for spoiling the solution??? Unless one post about 3-4 screen shots it cannot be done. This puzzle was greatly done and it is like sudoku:
saying you have to write numbers 1 through 9 in the cells so they follow these rules won't spoil the solution because you have to figure out WHERE each number goes.
So, if I say: (I will use the spoiler tags anyway because they are cool and some people has the right to disagree with me on what is a spoiler or not).
Disclaimer: if you want to figure out from the map and the text in it what the puzzle is, do not click the spoiler button.
Spoiler
1) You cannot divert any packets from OC after 4:00.
2) You cannot finish building Thor before the walls in the right pits break.
3) The walls break at 4:54 +/- 1 second.
4) Thor's AOE is big enough to kill all the creeper in the pits (and making the puzzle unwinnable) in a single shot.
These are only few of the rules of the puzzle. No spoiling this far. And the logical conclusions of these three rules are:
a) You have to send the last build packet for Thor before 4:00
b) That last packet cannot reach Thor before 4:53 (counting there is the liftoff animation before thor fires for the first time).
from a) and b) we come to the conclusion that:
You have to make the build packet(s) walk the network for over 54 seconds without reaching the Thor Build Site.
The statement above is in no way the solution to the puzzle. It is just a description of the puzzle itself.
P.S.: At my best i got it to make 4:48. Five seconds too early at least.
We can agree to disagree, I have deleted my posts as well. :)
;D
Cool, thanks for the clarification. After a dozen or so times, I still keep having a hard time timing the Thor build right with redirects, lol. Very frustrating. Also, I pretty much had it one time, but then I discovered OC had produced a few extra packets for Thor!!!! AAAAHhhhhhhhh!!!! Timing got messed up from that. Ugh.
After all the restarts it took to arrive at a solution, it is at once the most frustrating and challenging map I have attempted.
Not a very good score though. No worries, wasn't the goal.
Thanks for the obvious effort it took to build the map. It was a great challenge.
I have a question (and I'm sure many of you can answer it) about Thor after it is successfully built. Some may consider this question a spoiler so I will designate it so.
Spoiler
I moved Thor to cover the lower emitter and it fires constantly. At this time the blaster runs out of power due to me now being able to build and rescue the infants. If you do it long enough, the blaster (assuming you never move it) will eventually be destroyed.
The question is, how can a blaster keep the emitter at bay, that Thor cannot?
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
After all the restarts it took to arrive at a solution, it is at once the most frustrating and challenging map I have attempted.
Nice job! I hope you enjoyed it.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
Not a very good score though. No worries, wasn't the goal.
This is by design. A good score isn't very meaningful. It's basically you beat it or not. Of course, you can optimise the very last tidying up, but that is not interesting.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
Thanks for the obvious effort it took to build the map. It was a great challenge.
It's my pleasure! Thanks for your comments.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 05:44:26 PM
The question is, how can a blaster keep the emitter at bay, that Thor cannot?
This puzzled me a bit too. I did some testing and now have found that Thor fires a bit less frequently than a blaster. Specifically, Thor fires every 8 frames while blasters fire every 7 frames (without the fire rate upgrade). So, in the case of capping a quick emitter (that particular emitter has 0.2 interval) the Thor is actually worse at this job than a humble blaster. If you take a careful look, you'll see that the emitter manages to spread its load to the surrounding squares occasionally, when capped by the Thor. Of course, for this particular map the Thor does an adequate job (I actually had to take this into account and move the emitter a square to the left from earlier versions when I discovered the baby would die with the Thor defending it!). It's still a way stronger weapon, obviously, it just shoots WAY more powerful shots a little bit less often than the blaster.
This whole talk about frames might sound confusing to you, but if you are interested feel free to ask me more stuff about mechanics etc.. Also you could search some threads in GD and Support, where you'll find a wealth of information if you care though they might be a bit hard to find. Try UpperKEES's mechanics knowledge quiz (in gameplay discussion), I'm sure you'll find it very interesting.
Welcome to the forums!
Thanks for the quick answer, an interesting situation with the differing firing rates.
I find the discussions regarding frame rates and the like intriguing.
Thanks for the heads up regarding UpperKEES' quiz. I actually got a big clue for my solution from one of the questions. A particular quiz question, along with your choice of energy produced after the reactor factory is connected, led me down the path to my solution.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 06:55:38 PM
Thanks for the heads up regarding UpperKEES' quiz. I actually got a big clue for my solution from one of the questions. A particular quiz question, along with your choice of energy produced after the reactor factory is connected, led me down the path to my solution.
Funny you say that; it's probably the same question (well, answer I should say) that lead me to the solution.
Thanks for the hints, gang. Kaps, it truly is a great concept map (another "teachable moment"). It took me a few tries to optimize (tho not quite) the cleanup.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 06:55:38 PM
Thanks for the quick answer, an interesting situation with the differing firing rates.
I find the discussions regarding frame rates and the like intriguing.
My pleasure. I've also recently found that the Thor is not affected by the +15% fire rate upgrade. Not that it would matter in any sort of real situations that involve it.
Quote from: CJ_Omaha on December 01, 2010, 06:55:38 PM
Thanks for the heads up regarding UpperKEES' quiz. I actually got a big clue for my solution from one of the questions. A particular quiz question, along with your choice of energy produced after the reactor factory is connected, led me down the path to my solution.
Quote from: UpperKEES on December 01, 2010, 06:58:38 PM
Funny you say that; it's probably the same question (well, answer I should say) that lead me to the solution.
Oh, I get what you mean now! Interesting thought process!
Quote from: ctuna on December 03, 2010, 07:25:37 PM
Thanks for the hints, gang. Kaps, it truly is a great concept map (another "teachable moment"). It took me a few tries to optimize (tho not quite) the cleanup.
Thank you very much! Although I obviously tried to optimise that (hey, it's my only map so far, I like having the top score! :)), I insist that scoring isn't very meaningful here. I hope you enjoyed figuring it out!
A thoroughly enjoyable puzzle map. Great job!
It took me a while to figure out roughly what I had to do, then a lot longer to come up with a way of doing it that worked. My solution is far from ideal, but figuring this map out was highly satisfying.
Quote from: mopa42 on December 06, 2010, 07:07:30 PM
A thoroughly enjoyable puzzle map. Great job!
It took me a while to figure out roughly what I had to do, then a lot longer to come up with a way of doing it that worked. My solution is far from ideal, but figuring this map out was highly satisfying.
Thanks very much! And thank you for playing!
Also, please allow me to take this opportunity to shamelessly advertise my new map, The Testing Grounds (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5490.0). It is of a similar genre, so people who liked this one, will probably like the new one too. It doesn't feature an equally novel idea as the Temple, but it certainly requires a bunch of counterintuitive tricks and will attempt to keep you sleepless equally long! :)
you thought of absolutely everything, you evil genius... there are absolutely no exploits I can find. Great map! 6/5 XD
I give up... I was so close... now I think I know what the solution is though! I got the thor up just after the surivor pod got destroyed. :(