players have problem rating a game, or to determine a game skill as a map designers especially when it comes to a TRICKY maps.
it's common to see an 'expert only' map with scores like 9500 and more... post a reply to support.
Score is not realtive to difficulty
i didn't said that. high score is a great index to determent how fast a player complete the mission. 'expert only' maps should take a long time to finish, and several attempts. for example the map: 'Sea Rescue'
http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1598&scores=1
thats not true if its a expert map a pro might be able to slice through it in a certain amount of time. Some easy maps take a long time. So ur saying that the time it takes the difficuity it is
Quote from: F0R on May 23, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
thats not true if its a expert map a pro might be able to slice through it in a certain amount of time.
no doubt. there are many easy maps that take 20 min more or less, but there isn't a real challenge. for example: The Great Plains. http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1836&scores=1
Quote from: F0R on May 23, 2010, 04:22:58 AM
So ur saying that the time it takes the difficuity it is
not always, in the example above the map is easy but you have to wait 50+ minutes until you can start the fight. in the other hand, many difficult maps (according to the creator) are been finished very quickly - so... is it difficult?
that a map with walls in it no skill involved
whatever man... you completely missing the point
Your not making a valid point, your saying Score/time is relative to the difficulty. easy maps shouldent be short and fast, wheres as extremes are just endurance runs..
Tomiz, the time needed to finish a map, might be an indicator for the difficulty, but I know some very hard (definitely Expert Only) maps that can (or even need to) be completed in just 3 minutes. Some maps are very hard because of required tricks, some because of limited space to build and other because of creeper intensity/interval or a time limit. I don't think we should create categories for each cause; it's the combination that determines the difficulty rating.
You guys are misunderstanding Tomiz. What his point is, is that he says that map authors are having a difficult time rating some maps because although they may be difficult to some, others will find them easy, and just because a map is rated Experts only, doesn't mean that Experts will struggle with the map. But those who aren't experts may struggle..
So there is a difference between "I'm an expert and this map is easy" and "I'm an expert and this map is hard". Either way, you're still an expert, but some are "Experts only - Hard" and some are "Experts only - Easy".
And maps that take a long time should be hard, and maps that take a short time should be easy, when it comes to the expert only level. No doubt that some experts can finish maps quickly, while others struggle. But an "Experts only - hard" should take a fair amount of time to complete.. Otherwise you're just an expert and it's easy.
But the original poster definitely understands that some maps (For example, those with walls), may take a long time, but that is regardless of whether or not you're an expert, so they wouldn't fall under "Experts only", they're more of just an endurance run and "Tedious".
Quote from: Echo51 on May 23, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
Your not making a valid point, your saying Score/time is relative to the difficulty....
Quote from: UpperKEES on May 23, 2010, 01:27:50 PM
Tomiz, the time needed to finish a map, might be an indicator for the difficulty, but I know some very hard (definitely Expert Only) maps that can (or even need to) be completed in just 3 minutes.
dear friends, i understand your point of view. no matter how you spin it: time (and score) determine the difficulty. IF there's a map that need to be complete in 3 minutes, the player have to fight hard for 3 minutes - but it's just 3 minutes! you can use trial end error until you done with it. and that map need to be rated 'expert only' or 'hard'. yes, there are a few tricks that newbie must learn in order to finish some of the maps more easily - but maps designers shouldn't rate their maps according to the newbie players.
Quote from: archn on May 23, 2010, 03:40:00 PM
You guys are misunderstanding Tomiz. What his point is, is that he says that map authors are having a difficult time rating some maps because although they may be difficult to some, others will find them easy, and just because a map is rated Experts only, doesn't mean that Experts will struggle with the map. But those who aren't experts may struggle...
exactly, if a map author managed to create a map that not entirely based on trivial game-play, and there is a back-door that can help finish the map more quickly it should be rated tricky. in my opinion the best way to spot a tricky map is by the large standard deviation of the scores. example: Hope Invasion (fixed). http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1815&scores=1.
If a map is rated expert only, hard or medium but there is another easy way to finish, you can see it in the topic maps that have been pwnd (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=882.0).
Quote from: tomiz on May 23, 2010, 02:52:29 AM
players have problem rating a game, or to determine a game skill as a map designers especially when it comes to a TRICKY maps.
it's common to see an 'expert only' map with scores like 9500 and more... post a reply to support.
You are so far off the mark it is not even funny.
Some expert-only maps require skill and takes 30 seconds to win or lose. Other expert-only maps require careful thought to place a number of towers and slowly best the creeper. These may take 20+ minutes. There are maps in both categories that I simply cannot win.
Similarly, there are trivial maps that one can win in 12 seconds and others that take maybe 45 minutes. THey are not hard, they just require plasting one's way through a sea of creeper.
Tricky does not begin to describe it. A long time back I proposed a "puzzle" category (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=522.0) for those maps that rely on discovering a specific technique or placement to win.
Quote from: tomiz on May 24, 2010, 04:00:14 AM
no matter how you spin it: time (and score) determine the difficulty.
Sorry, you're very wrong. Hard maps need some thinking and planning ahead and might still turn out differently than expected. Trivial maps don't; you'll see the solution at first glance. If you like to relate time to difficulty, you should say: "The hardest map is the map with the largest gap between best time and worst time." Finishing times between different maps mean nothing.
There's
Quote from: archn on May 23, 2010, 03:40:00 PM
So there is a difference between "I'm an expert and this map is easy" and "I'm an expert and this map is hard".
Not one map is the same, so even within the Expert Only classified maps you'll find easier and harder maps (also depending on your playing style), but normally 'Expert Only' means 'only very experienced players will be able to finish this map without too many problems'. Of course less experienced players might also finish it, but they'll probably need some more time of a few more tries' (and learn more).
Quote from: tomiz on May 24, 2010, 04:00:14 AM
if a map author managed to create a map that not entirely based on trivial game-play, and there is a back-door that can help finish the map more quickly it should be rated tricky.
This is where the error in your thinking occurs. There's no such thing as trivial game-play and tricky backdoors. Of course you need the basic knowledge how every unit works and what's required to finish a map, but only then the playing experience starts. There's a huge gap between understanding the game mechanics and applying advanced techniques like bridging. The most important part lies in the continuous improvements you'll make after playing many maps. These improvements most of the time don't consist out of 'tricks', but much more out of building the right things in the right time. The best (and hardest) maps don't require special techniques to be used, but prevent these tricks from being used (which indicates the map maker is also an experienced player).
If you're still convinced that playing time equals difficulty, just look at the average playing time instead of the difficulty rating and your problem is solved. I'll only have to warn you that you'll probably be playing more boring maps....
this post is for UpperKEES and Karsten75
instead of words, why don't you both give me an example to the 'expert only' maps, that MUST be done in 30 seconds. and beside that don't write down ridiculous assumption - I'm an experienced player. until today i saw only one 'expert only' map that was really hard. and it cannot be done in 30 seconds/minutes.
Quote from: Karsten75 on May 24, 2010, 03:56:05 PM
You are so far off the mark it is not even funny.
Similarly, there are trivial maps that one can win in 12 seconds and others that take maybe 45 minutes. THey are not hard, they just require plasting one's way through a sea of creeper.
nothing is funny... believe me. if this thread needed to be rated by the author - i would rate it 'expert only'.
i never thought that no one will support that idea. you think i'm wrong... see your quote, "there are trivial maps..." - I wasn't talking about difficulty of the map! but that's what you think! i was talking about the large standard deviation of the scores. (maybe you skipped the middle posts).
for future reference let's assume that the common player is one that finished the story mode & conquest & special ops
Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't think there are any 30-second "Expert Only" maps. There just aren't enough stategies for that time period and the solution will seem obvious (that doesn't mean it can't be hard, though). There are certainly a few that take 10 (Modify "Expert Round" by Jonas by locking the city, moving the totems to the corners and adding a 10-minute time limit, and you'll see what I mean *Hint* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgK4Zfz2W2Q)), or even 5 minutes (Or so I've been told) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1822&page=)
Quote from: tomiz on May 25, 2010, 12:39:27 AM
this post is for UpperKEES and Karsten75
instead of words, why don't you both give me an example to the 'expert only' maps, that MUST be done in 30 seconds.
Here you go: 33 seconds (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=773&page=).
For the rest of your post, I can't figure out what you are on about. I get the visual image of you foaming around the mouth.
Interesting discussion...
I know the topic of "map difficulty" has come up before. I have considered just removing it as a map classification since it can be subjective.
Stepping back for a second, I'm actually fairly pleased that the topic of map difficulty is so confusing and a subject for debate. :) Strange as it sounds, this is a good thing in that it means that the maps (and the game concept) aren't subject to over simplification.
My personal opinion is that map difficulty isn't actually that important.... map "stickiness" is (see 'The Tipping Point' by Malcom Gladwell). Some maps are really good and others not so much. Some are memorable, others not really. The qualities that make maps interesting and memorable are the things I wish I could quantify....
In any case, I hope that game 2 will offer similar and expanded confusion over how to categorize maps :)
Quote from: virgilw on May 25, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
My personal opinion is that map difficulty isn't actually that important.... map "stickiness" is (see 'The Tipping Point' by Malcom Gladwell). Some maps are really good and others not so much. Some are memorable, others not really. The qualities that make maps interesting and memorable are the things I wish I could quantify....
Actually, I think most maps sink into oblivion over time....
Quote from: Karsten75 on May 25, 2010, 09:12:40 AM
Here you go: 33 seconds (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=773&page=).
very nice map, thanks
by the way if there is a lot of people around you with foam problems maybe you are the one who causing it.
ur joking right
Quote from: tomiz on May 25, 2010, 12:39:27 AM
this post is for UpperKEES and Karsten75
instead of words, why don't you both give me an example to the 'expert only' maps, that MUST be done in 30 seconds.
I can't recall anybody saying "MUST be done in 30 seconds". I said:
Quote from: UpperKEES on May 23, 2010, 01:27:50 PM
I know some very hard (definitely Expert Only) maps that can (or even need to) be completed in just 3 minutes.
Here are some more maps (besides the good example that Karsten mentioned) that can or should be finished quickly, but require more skill than you'll have after finishing the in-game maps:
- Reverse Funnel (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1662)
- Devil's Den (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=7)
- The Athlete (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=1416)
Play these and you'll see that difficulty is not related to the time it takes to complete them.
Quote from: tomiz on May 25, 2010, 12:39:27 AM
and beside that don't write down ridiculous assumption - I'm an experienced player.
Who made an assumption about your experience?
Quote from: tomiz on May 25, 2010, 12:39:27 AM
(maybe you skipped the middle posts).
Hmmm, I wonder if you skipped my posts or just don't understand what I'm saying....
Quote from: virgilw on May 25, 2010, 08:53:36 PM
I have considered just removing it as a map classification since it can be subjective.
(...)
My personal opinion is that map difficulty isn't actually that important
Exactly. Difficulty is just a rough indicator, determined by many factors relative to player experience, playing style and other preferences and of course the experience of the person who created the map. What map is harder? The one that requires 30 blasters to cross a mountain range or the map that requires 30 minutes of thinking how to solve it? Both can be hard and both can be considered easy, depending on your qualities. Like mathematics can be hard for people who prefer languages and vice versa.
Once again, if tomiz prefers long battles because 'long' means 'hard', just use the time filter.