This topic is for discussion of map #3953: map 162 BIG BICKFORD PUZZLE
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=3953)
Author: yum234
Size: 220x120
Desc:
#PlayAsCreeper #GoodLuck
Very tricky PAC PUZZLE.
Only if You will stuck, please, see this spoiler:
Spoiler
semi-hint:
Very critical disable 4 auto-target Berthas. For that You can use
original and very beautiful extra-long distance "single spore attack"! :)
If You need I can explain in detail later. Please, try and if not successful ask me! ;)
Good Luck! :)
And here came the first hater! :)
They do not like fine ideas, but can be me personally.
Came second hater.
It's a shame for our CW3 society... :( :(
Don't take that for some hate more a frustration thing.
That one really hard.
Maybe it's time for the full hint?
Quote from: Portelly on September 19, 2016, 04:38:23 PM
Don't take that for some hate more a frustration thing.
That one really hard.
What is most hard? How disable evil Berthas? Or go through islands?
The Berthas.
They start firing and i'm only at this point.
Quote from: yum-forum on September 19, 2016, 04:39:44 PM
Maybe it's time for the full hint?
I'd like the full hint!
Yes, Id like the full hint. Not sure how a single spore can reach the berthas.
Quote from: mzimmer74 on September 19, 2016, 04:58:21 PM
Quote from: yum-forum on September 19, 2016, 04:39:44 PM
Maybe it's time for the full hint?
I'd like the full hint!
Quote from: Oblivion on September 19, 2016, 05:21:02 PM
Yes, Id like the full hint. Not sure how a single spore can reach the berthas.
In spoiler screenshots about
elegant way (main point of map! ;)) how disable Berthas:
Spoiler
see screenshots 162-1, 162-2, 162-3, 162-4 and 162-5
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=15234.msg111876#msg111876
If You going fast to this poin You can disable 3+1 evil Berthas. Then will be usual hard battle.
At least if You place Spore Tower in this point You can kill even active Berthas (but it need time).
Quote from: Portelly on September 19, 2016, 04:50:13 PM
The Berthas.
They start firing and i'm only at this point.
WOW! It is terrible way! See, please, screenshots in my full hint above.
And Good Luck! :)
For me very interesting opinion of RrR, Ratboy, Rogacz and gambit. Are You used long distance spore attack? Or not?
If possible, please, comment.
Quote from: yum-forum on September 19, 2016, 06:04:26 PM
For me very interesting opinion of RrR, Ratboy, Rogacz and gambit. Are You used long distance spore attack? Or not?
If possible, please, comment.
No, details in the spoiler.
Spoiler
I actually ignored the left side and went for the 3rd bottom island, from there I was able to launch a few spores at the Bertha. Also I destroyed the Relays there to starve the bottom for easy destruction. I had larger emitters away from where I was actually moving so the Bertha would usually target them.
Another amazing map!
That was tough but fun. For those who are curious, as long as you get that lower spore set up you can beat the map even if the berthas get built. However, it takes a LONG time! :)
Quote from: mzimmer74 on September 19, 2016, 09:55:42 PM
That was tough but fun. For those who are curious, as long as you get that lower spore set up you can beat the map even if the berthas get built. However, it takes a LONG time! :)
Yes. It was designed originally. :) Important was that Bertha will not appear again in comparison with pre-build Bertha.
Quote from: yum-forum on September 19, 2016, 06:04:26 PM
For me very interesting opinion of RrR, Ratboy, Rogacz and gambit. Are You used long distance spore attack? Or not?
If possible, please, comment.
Similar strategy to ratboy.
Spoiler
Focus on taking out the pz beams in the centre of the map before switching to a spore heavy game. So many totems, even relatively weak emitters spill into the void. Haven't managed to take the berthas out before they build yet (one spore cycle too late). If I synchronised my spores, I think I could knock several minutes off my current time.
What is difficult or wrong? Screenshots was not helpful?
It seems that forum read only few players.
Do not found right way for progress, came evil Berthas, do not read hint, no chance to win, exit, low rating, not happy. I too...
Quote from: yum-forum on September 20, 2016, 12:06:18 PM
What is difficult or wrong? Screenshots was not helpful?
It seems that forum read only few players.
Do not found right way for progress, came evil Berthas, do not read hint, exit, low rating, not happy...
I tried again with the way you suggested and I was able finish even faster. It's a well made map with a real nice challenge and with multiple strategies for destroying those pesky Bertha. Try to ignore the rage-quit bad ratings.
10/10 and favorited. Currently this is my favorite PAC map from you Yum.
Quote from: stdout on September 20, 2016, 04:08:25 PM
10/10 and favorited. Currently this is my favorite PAC map from you Yum.
Thank You! :-[ :)
What do You think why so many unsuccessful tries even despite of the my full hint with screenshots?
I think most players are casual and don't visit the forums.
Quote from: stdout on September 20, 2016, 08:30:11 PM
I think most players are casual and don't visit the forums.
I can suppose reason of low rating for this map.
TOO COMPLEX FOR ONE MAP MIXTURE OF:
BIG, MULTIPLE STRATEGIES, HARD, PUZZLE, BICKFORD, TRICKY, EVIL BERTHAS, PAC TYPE, NOT EASY START etc. :)
Yes, I agree. But don't let that stop you. ;D
Quote from: yum-forum on September 20, 2016, 04:24:33 PM
What do You think why so many unsuccessful tries even despite of the my full hint with screenshots?
Hello, Yum. Your PAC maps are great, don't let low map score prevent you from making more challenging maps. My time was about two hours after four-five restarts and quick forum check. I did not realize that you actually can drop spores right on EVIL BERTHAS, so my time is unimpressive. It was enjoyable, even with Berthas, and I absolutely hate them in PAC maps.
Your maps are great, did I metion it?
I had no problem with this map after I managed to
properly secure bottom-left PZ and build spore tower here. A lot of PAC maps have tight starts, where you have to do everything just right or you cannot win, but these starts are short and you don't waste a lot of time (2-3 minutes?) if you make mistakes. After these intense moments you enter "stable" part of the map where you can lose time or progress, but you cannot lose a map. (Well, you can, if you wish, but you cannot be
forced into situation where you cannot progress further)
But on this map this first "unstable" part is ten minutes long, so if you fail to secure bottom-left PZ in time and berthas get build, you cannot do anything and have to restart. Ten minutes do not sound big, but it's huge compared to normal PAC restart times. Also, it's balanced too perfectly for me - I could secure bottom-left PZ literally seconds before first bertha shot and I don't think I can do better. (I think I've beaten all of your other PAC maps - so I'm a least competent :D)
Soooo:
1) You must figure out what to do, and you have an interesting bickford generator right near you starting point, which you must fully ignore, or you'll lose, because you'll run out of time. And bottom emitter at first does not look like it has enough power to overcome all firepower that gets thrown at it.
2) You cannot make mistakes. If you misfire a spore and it gets shot by a beam, you have to wait 20 seconds for another one, and that delay might be enough to let berthas ruin your day.
3) You don't make a lot of progress and gameplay is slow. A lot of time you just wait for the spore to reload or for bottom emitter to slowly eat away health of a canon. It does not feel very exciting. It does not help that you enemy is unimpressive - few common, not PZ-boosted units. You are just weak at this point, so bottom emitter confrontation does not feel like epic struggle, more like two babies trying to have a fight.
Ten minutes of rather slow and unexciting gameplay, you can't make mistakes, and you'll probably have to restart these ten minutes two or three times to figure out what you must and must not grab on the way down - that can spook casuals ;) and it definitely spooked me. So my problem was not outsmarting swarm of berthas, it was getting to the point when I have enough resources to have a chance.
Your maps are amazing, by the way, this one was the reason I decided to submit my score and register on forum.
BTW, do you have plans on cutting bertha's health of further maps? It sometimes sucks to wait for bertha literally swimming in creeper to finally die, while if pulls energy out of thin air and keeps firing.
This is gonna be sooooo offtopic.
Yum, why aren't you creating maps for Particle Fleet? Your maps here were awesome and I'd love to see you in PF as well!
Quote from: Stickman on September 21, 2016, 02:13:48 PM
Quote from: yum-forum on September 20, 2016, 04:24:33 PM
What do You think why so many unsuccessful tries even despite of the my full hint with screenshots?
Hello, Yum. Your PAC maps are great, don't let low map score prevent you from making more challenging maps. My time was about two hours after four-five restarts and quick forum check. I did not realize that you actually can drop spores right on EVIL BERTHAS, so my time is unimpressive. It was enjoyable, even with Berthas, and I absolutely hate them in PAC maps.
Your maps are great, did I metion it?
I had no problem with this map after I managed to properly secure bottom-left PZ and build spore tower here. A lot of PAC maps have tight starts, where you have to do everything just right or you cannot win, but these starts are short and you don't waste a lot of time (2-3 minutes?) if you make mistakes. After these intense moments you enter "stable" part of the map where you can lose time or progress, but you cannot lose a map. (Well, you can, if you wish, but you cannot be forced into situation where you cannot progress further)
But on this map this first "unstable" part is ten minutes long, so if you fail to secure bottom-left PZ in time and berthas get build, you cannot do anything and have to restart. Ten minutes do not sound big, but it's huge compared to normal PAC restart times. Also, it's balanced too perfectly for me - I could secure bottom-left PZ literally seconds before first bertha shot and I don't think I can do better. (I think I've beaten all of your other PAC maps - so I'm a least competent :D)
Soooo:
1) You must figure out what to do, and you have an interesting bickford generator right near you starting point, which you must fully ignore, or you'll lose, because you'll run out of time. And bottom emitter at first does not look like it has enough power to overcome all firepower that gets thrown at it.
2) You cannot make mistakes. If you misfire a spore and it gets shot by a beam, you have to wait 20 seconds for another one, and that delay might be enough to let berthas ruin your day.
3) You don't make a lot of progress and gameplay is slow. A lot of time you just wait for the spore to reload or for bottom emitter to slowly eat away health of a canon. It does not feel very exciting. It does not help that you enemy is unimpressive - few common, not PZ-boosted units. You are just weak at this point, so bottom emitter confrontation does not feel like epic struggle, more like two babies trying to have a fight.
Ten minutes of rather slow and unexciting gameplay, you can't make mistakes, and you'll probably have to restart these ten minutes two or three times to figure out what you must and must not grab on the way down - that can spook casuals ;) and it definitely spooked me. So my problem was not outsmarting swarm of berthas, it was getting to the point when I have enough resources to have a chance.
Your maps are amazing, by the way, this one was the reason I decided to submit my score and register on forum.
BTW, do you have plans on cutting bertha's health of further maps? It sometimes sucks to wait for bertha literally swimming in creeper to finally die, while if pulls energy out of thin air and keeps firing.
Very big thanks to You for so detail comments! And additional and special thanks that to write post You registrated in our Forum. For me it is very valuable!
Now about content of Your comments about this map:
1. Your scientifically detailed analysis of map is almost perfect.
2. Yes. You must fully ignore Bickford generator right near starting point (to save time!).
3. Yes. To reach in time bottom-left PZ and start shooting (long distance spore attack) to not yet activated Berthas
is critical for this map. Time is important and You cannot make mistakes. This is maybe very uncomfortable, but after disabling 4 auto-target Berthas game became doable and not too hard.
4. In my semi-hint and then in full hint (with screenshots) I explained about this. But unfortunately not so many players read our Forum.
P.S.
I tried to create unusual&interesting PAC map with many new ideas and tricks... Sorry, please! :)
Quote from: jaworeq on September 21, 2016, 02:19:54 PM
This is gonna be sooooo offtopic.
Yum, why aren't you creating maps for Particle Fleet? Your maps here were awesome and I'd love to see you in PF as well!
As I know release of "Particle Fleet" will be in Sept., 30. I am waiting for this great event! :)
I will buy it and maybe in future try to create some PF-maps...
Quote from: Stickman on September 21, 2016, 02:13:48 PM
Quote from: yum-forum on September 20, 2016, 04:24:33 PM
What do You think why so many unsuccessful tries even despite of the my full hint with screenshots?
.......
BTW, do you have plans on cutting bertha's health of further maps? It sometimes sucks to wait for bertha literally swimming in creeper to finally die, while if pulls energy out of thin air and keeps firing.
I plan to create one more PAC map similar to this map 162. It will be not so hard, but again with auto-target Berthas. Important that if You already have good infrastructure even auto-target Berthas not so dangerous! :)
Quote from: yum-forum on September 21, 2016, 04:51:24 PM
P.S. I tried to create unusual&interesting PAC map with many new ideas and tricks... Sorry, please! :)
You're doing a great job! I enjoy your maps. They are hard, though, so they are not for everyone, but that's okay.
Bored at work today so I tried something. The map can be done using just emitters, except for the spore you start with, while leaving the berthas until just before the end. You just need to have large emitters away from where you are advancing. Focused on moving along the top to take out the top 2 commands while having some creep to the bottom to sometime distract the berthas. In the process of going for the bottom command the 4 berthas did start to take damage but the command was destroyed before them. After that the bottom left was easily flooded. Took about an hour.
Quote from: yum-forum on September 21, 2016, 04:58:36 PM
Quote from: jaworeq on September 21, 2016, 02:19:54 PM
This is gonna be sooooo offtopic.
Yum, why aren't you creating maps for Particle Fleet? Your maps here were awesome and I'd love to see you in PF as well!
As I know release of "Particle Fleet" will be in Sept., 30. I am waiting for this great event! :)
I will buy it and maybe in future try to create some PF-maps...
Didn't you get a key as a winner of community giveaway vote? :o
Quote from: jaworeq on September 22, 2016, 02:30:45 AM
Quote from: yum-forum on September 21, 2016, 04:58:36 PM
Quote from: jaworeq on September 21, 2016, 02:19:54 PM
This is gonna be sooooo offtopic.
Yum, why aren't you creating maps for Particle Fleet? Your maps here were awesome and I'd love to see you in PF as well!
As I know release of "Particle Fleet" will be in Sept., 30. I am waiting for this great event! :)
I will buy it and maybe in future try to create some PF-maps...
Didn't you get a key as a winner of community giveaway vote? :o
Not yet. What means ''community giveaway vote"?
It means check your private messages on forum/email, you should have a message from Karsten ;)
The members voted for the 10 players who should get a free copy of Particle Fleet. You were among the ten winners.
Quote from: stdout on September 22, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
The members voted for the 10 players who should get a free copy of Particle Fleet. You were among the ten winners.
Now I get it. :)
Quote from: stdout on September 22, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
The members voted for the 10 players who should get a free copy of Particle Fleet. You were among the ten winners.
Congrats yum! Very well deserved.
Quote from: stdout on September 22, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
The members voted for the 10 players who should get a free copy of Particle Fleet. You were among the ten winners.
Interesting to see list of this 10 players.
Yes congrats Yum, and very much deserved.
Just one more thing, have you ever considered doing something like this professionally? You've certainly got the talent and ideas.
If I ever got around to writing my game (which is looking increasingly unlikely), I'd hire you as my level designer on the spot.
No interview or resume. I've already seen enough. :)
I hate levels where you have to retry a lot.
It's not strategy, it's just getting into the mind of the level designer.