This topic is for discussion of map #3842: map 145 BIGPAC-2 (Runner Bickford)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=3842)
Author: yum234
Size: 220x170
Desc:
Runner GOD-09(Game On Desire of alfanugan) #PlayAsCreeper #GoodLuck
Map is very big&hard, epic and consist of many ideas.
Spoiler
Runner BickFord. You can use helps from Ranner Bickford Effect in several area of map. But BickFord Effect possible with some level (different in each area) of Creeper!
Berthas. The most annoying is 2 Berthas (with auto-target). That is why important using BickFord Effect kill it.
Runners. By controlling of growth of digital network You can send runners in some points where snipers kill it and You can create a bridge.
Beam. A lot of strong beams did not permit You simply go through the map. In some case (in the beginning) after some logical action You can use Spore Towers. But in limited area. Then Spore Tower technic will be useful in the end of game.
PZ Berthas. Very annoying. To go through the map You need to kill most part of this Berthas in Bickford area.
Creeper "knife". From some level of Creeper You can use technology of "creeper knife" to cut voides. It is very attractive using of field. Like cut butter by knife! :)
Tactic. In this game very important right tactics.
P.S. I created this map within one week. In result it was so much hard that I simplified it... ;)
I am afraid a challening start coupled with lag is making this very unejoyable to play, I have to quit for now :(
Edit: I have just noticed something that might make it easier.
Spoiler
There are more initial emitters than what is obvious in the top corner, have a careful look around!
I have to agree with Doom. The map looks great and I'd love to play it but there is no way my system can handle this. It's not a terrible system (can play most AAA games) but the lag here is just too much. Makes me sad because I'd really like to give it a shot.
I don't know exactly what is causing all the lag, but if I had to guess I'd say it's the sheer amount of packets that have to be sent over the network. "Best path" algorithms tend to be fairly processor intensive and you have TONS of things needing to be calculated each frame. Here's something that I've thought about that might help on a map like this. Given the size of the map, I wonder if it might be more efficient in terms of computational power to break the network into smaller pieces that are not connected. Then, power up each section with guppies that come from PZs in a well defended portion of the base. That would make the overall map less connected and each "map" within the map would be smaller. That should theoretically make the best path algorithm require less computation. Again, I've not tried this, but I do wonder if it would help.
Anyway, like I said, the map looks great but I won't be able to play it. :(
Same lag issues here.
yum: on the PAC maps the best thing you can do to limit lag is to limit yourself to a smaller map. Keep it under 100x100 and there shouldn't be any lag issues.
I am very very much looking forward to more PAC maps from you! Just make them smaller. :)
So many unsuccessful tries from players whom I very respect! :(
It is very very pity because strategically map is unusual and interesting. At least for me.
Maybe one more possibility: wrong starting point for playing?
My computer is very old (about 8 years old, 433MHz, very slow, I almost can not play with speed 2X), but for this map lag was very small (in the beginning then became better).
Interesting opinion from player who finished this game. Please, comment!
So many efforts within one week to create big epic map... :'(
I would wonder about the lag being due to the Abraxis.crpl script, but I believe that we've already heard from the builder of it.
I'm having a consistent 1/4th speed on 1x. I would ask for fewer units, but it may be too hard to balance.
The game clock is now pushing 2h, so clearly I lose sight of the goal when I have this much time to micromanage. I'll likely finish it, but not now.
I finished it despite the terrible lag... took me over 2hrs despite official time being 46 minutes. Talk about slow motion :)
I think map is not that hard,
Spoiler
since there are several "safe" starting points
I think lag is caused by something in the script. When I beat the map I got the "claim victory" message and all lag was gone (the game was still running in the background)
edit: Also, the game speed did not change at all during play. It was the same slo-mo until I finished it.
Quote from: MasterBata on August 14, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
I think lag is caused by something in the script. When I beat the map I got the "claim victory" message and all lag was gone (the game was still running in the background)
Yes! The same for me. After finishing game in the background game became very very quick!
First of nice map.
As mentioned before my game speed was also around 1/4th-1/5th speed on 1x. It was a bit unconvenient so I probably won't try to get a better time soon.
The start was relatively hard but after getting established it was just a matter of being patient enough and choosing the right targets.
Thats why I belive that many people didn't finish the map because of lag issues.
Keep up the good work and I hope to enjoy another PAC map soon
Until the game end condition is met, the script is doing a lot of work. The main bottlenecks are that each frame it is checking to see if all the items are destroyed (Triggering victory) and it's also checking to see if it should start rebuilding any destroyed item, and if yes, can it rebuild it? (Is the ground clear of active digitalis and creeper?).
These checks all happen for each square of the map, each frame, and this is why huge maps are so extremely laggy.
One change I made long ago, and I don't know if it's in your recent version or not, is to make it so it only does those checks once every 20 frames or so, instead of every single frame. That helped a little bit at the time. You might experiment with that.
You said you wanted to hear from people that beat it so here I am. I post my scores under 'Xander' now instead of my forum name.
Anyways The lag issues were a Killer, I have no idea how many hours it took me in real time, but if the 46 score was over 2 hours I think it's safe to say I put in 4-5 on my time.
This map was more frustrating than anything and I beat it simply because I knew it could be beaten.
Simply put, the defenses were a pain in the ass. PZ berthas, normal berthas, PZ beams, snipers, and nullifiers that were built the second I claimed anything at the start. Maybe it was the lag that made it so frustrating, because it took even longer to make progress and it would quickly be destroyed.
Spoiler
I did figure out a few things, mostly that aside from a few spots to the south spores are useless, too many pz beams that will destroy them as soon as they are spawned.
Just make a massive linked emitter and use the fact that after what 600 density? It will just flood into the void. Combine that with taking note of I think 4 emitters that are elsewhere on the map and will never be nullified. Link up enough emitters to get 1000 or so power and let it just pump for a while to overrun the defenses. I have no idea which set of berthas to take out first though, I'm not sure which ones were the most persistent in slowing me down. Runners helped a little at the start but overall not too much for me.
I could do the map faster, if only for the fact that I know how to not waste my time, but I don't wanna put in that many real time hours again right now.
BTW something I don't understand, I'm not familiar with the term. What is the "BickFord Effect?"
Quote from: Durkon on August 14, 2016, 04:50:35 PM
First of nice map.
As mentioned before my game speed was also around 1/4th-1/5th speed on 1x. It was a bit unconvenient so I probably won't try to get a better time soon.
The start was relatively hard but after getting established it was just a matter of being patient enough and choosing the right targets.
Thats why I belive that many people didn't finish the map because of lag issues.
Keep up the good work and I hope to enjoy another PAC map soon
Thank You for so kind comment! Especially valuable that it is Your first post in our Forum! You are welcome! :)
About lag: I created new version of game (BICKFORD PAC) with the same scenario, not so hard and without lag! Please, enjoy! :)
Quote from: NNR_Alex on August 14, 2016, 05:07:30 PM
BTW something I don't understand, I'm not familiar with the term. What is the "BickFord Effect?"
Thank You for comments! :)
Bickford Effect for non-PAC maps explained for instance here:
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=20944
But in case of PAC map it means that You can (with enough Creeper level) start get a lot of Creeper in some point when snipers killing Runners. And it helps in game. In this map 4 Bickford area.
This map had lots of lag for me as well but I still enjoyed beating it, thanks!
Quote from: alfanugan on August 14, 2016, 05:49:43 PM
This map had lots of lag for me as well but I still enjoyed beating it, thanks!
Thank You for comments! :)
Sorry for for lag problem in map created on Your Desire. :-[
As a compensation I created new version of this map (BICKFIRD PAC) with the same scenario, not so hard and without big lag problem! Please, enjoy it! :)
Quote from: mzimmer74 on August 14, 2016, 08:01:57 AM
I have to agree with Doom. The map looks great and I'd love to play it but there is no way my system can handle this. It's not a terrible system (can play most AAA games) but the lag here is just too much. Makes me sad because I'd really like to give it a shot.
I don't know exactly what is causing all the lag, but if I had to guess I'd say it's the sheer amount of packets that have to be sent over the network. "Best path" algorithms tend to be fairly processor intensive and you have TONS of things needing to be calculated each frame. Here's something that I've thought about that might help on a map like this. Given the size of the map, I wonder if it might be more efficient in terms of computational power to break the network into smaller pieces that are not connected. Then, power up each section with guppies that come from PZs in a well defended portion of the base. That would make the overall map less connected and each "map" within the map would be smaller. That should theoretically make the best path algorithm require less computation. Again, I've not tried this, but I do wonder if it would help.
Anyway, like I said, the map looks great but I won't be able to play it. :(
Thank You for comments! :) :)
I tested Your idea about using guppies. Was not successful.
Main problem in number of units (weapons etc.). I remember similar problems in CW2 and CW3 in usual big maps when You have to build many many weapons. That is why I created improved version of this game (BICKFORD PAC) with the same scenario, not so hars and without big lag problems! Enjoy it, please! :)
Finished at last, about 1hr to achieve every 5 mins and for the fist time ever no pausing required!
Quote from: stdout on August 14, 2016, 05:00:57 PM
Until the game end condition is met, the script is doing a lot of work. The main bottlenecks are that each frame it is checking to see if all the items are destroyed (Triggering victory) and it's also checking to see if it should start rebuilding any destroyed item, and if yes, can it rebuild it? (Is the ground clear of active digitalis and creeper?).
These checks all happen for each square of the map, each frame, and this is why huge maps are so extremely laggy.
One change I made long ago, and I don't know if it's in your recent version or not, is to make it so it only does those checks once every 20 frames or so, instead of every single frame. That helped a little bit at the time. You might experiment with that.
Main problem in number of units (weapons etc.). I checked and desided to create improved version of this map.
Name: BICFKRD PAC. Very similar scenario, more easy and almost without lag problem! Please, try it. Hope You will enjoy! :)
Quote from: D0m0nik on August 14, 2016, 06:10:30 PM
Finished at last, about 1hr to achieve every 5 mins and for the fist time ever no pausing required!
Great and C 8) 8) 8L!
Sorry for lag problems! As a compensation I created new version of this map (BICKFORD PAC) for enjoyable playing! Please, try! :)
Quote from: stdout on August 14, 2016, 05:00:57 PM
Until the game end condition is met, the script is doing a lot of work. The main bottlenecks are that each frame it is checking to see if all the items are destroyed (Triggering victory) and it's also checking to see if it should start rebuilding any destroyed item, and if yes, can it rebuild it? (Is the ground clear of active digitalis and creeper?).
These checks all happen for each square of the map, each frame, and this is why huge maps are so extremely laggy.
One change I made long ago, and I don't know if it's in your recent version or not, is to make it so it only does those checks once every 20 frames or so, instead of every single frame. That helped a little bit at the time. You might experiment with that.
I haven't looked at any CRPL but if this is what's going on it seems to me like there are a couple of ways to make this much more optimized. I don't know if any of these are possible in CRPL, but thought I'd give the basics of both ideas.
First, instead of checking for each square, is there any kind of function along the lines of "CN1 STILL ALIVE"? If there is, couldn't you just check to see if any CNs are still on the map and if there aren't then have it be a win? Once all three CNs are gone the game is basically over anyway. Everything from that point is purely mop up.
Second, is there a way to receive "item destroyed" and "item created" events? If there are, could you have a global variable that decreases on each destruction and increases on each creation? Once the number of items left gets down to a certain point then start using the current method. I would probably not go down to zero in case you got some kind of weird number problem, but if you set it to a number like 20 or something I'd think you could get rid of a lot of the computational lag and still be able to be precise with the actual time of the win.
Anyway, as I said I'm not familiar with CRPL so put these ideas out there as a thought to look at. Maybe someone who is knowledgeable with CRPL could say whether either way would be possible.
Edit: I decided to pull open the CRPL and take a look at it. From what I can tell the time intensive part isn't the checking for win condition but checking to rebuild. If that's correct then neither of the above ideas will do anything to help with the lag. Oh well, should have known it wouldn't be something that simple! :P
That is the issue. Rebuild checks can be optimized only so far, and they are already generating floods of "X Lost" event tags.
That said, I haven't opened up that specific script yet. "Si non confectus, non recifiat" (Or, in a different language and dialect, "If the relevant object is currently functional, do not attempt to repair it.")
I didn't enjoy the map.
It is so big that it makes it repetitive.
The number of PZ beams effectively disables 1 of the only 2 weapons the creeper has.
The AC spores were a nuisance and not a challenge. And I couldn't destroy them or turn them to my side (flip spores?)
Nullifier-beyond-the-gap is OK a couple of times but not 20 or so (I didn't count).
The number of PZ reactors made energy starvation impossible.
The aforementioned PZ beams made extend-digitalis-in-void a chore. There were one or to gaps where I could do that but then I had to extend the digitalis a long way.
Visually the map is nice and appealing.
The overall impression I got from the map is that there were no feel of "power amplification" and no sneaky tactics. Just brute force.
Possibly a bug: it seems to me that at least some of the berthas could continue to fire even after I had cut off their energy supply. I think some of the early PAC maps suffered from the same bug.
Quote from: isj4 on August 15, 2016, 05:19:38 AM
I didn't enjoy the map.
It is so big that it makes it repetitive.
The number of PZ beams effectively disables 1 of the only 2 weapons the creeper has.
The AC spores were a nuisance and not a challenge. And I couldn't destroy them or turn them to my side (flip spores?)
Nullifier-beyond-the-gap is OK a couple of times but not 20 or so (I didn't count).
The number of PZ reactors made energy starvation impossible.
The aforementioned PZ beams made extend-digitalis-in-void a chore. There were one or to gaps where I could do that but then I had to extend the digitalis a long way.
Visually the map is nice and appealing.
The overall impression I got from the map is that there were no feel of "power amplification" and no sneaky tactics. Just brute force.
Possibly a bug: it seems to me that at least some of the berthas could continue to fire even after I had cut off their energy supply. I think some of the early PAC maps suffered from the same bug.
Thank You for comments! :)
I also noticed that Berthas worked without energy supply!
Quote from: yum-forum on August 15, 2016, 09:33:34 AMI also noticed that Berthas worked without energy supply!
If this is happening, you are using an old version of the PAC scripts. I fixed that bug long ago.
Quote from: stdout on August 15, 2016, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: yum-forum on August 15, 2016, 09:33:34 AMI also noticed that Berthas worked without energy supply!
If this is happening, you are using an old version of the PAC scripts. I fixed that bug long ago.
I was happy when found PlayAsCreeper-2015-01-25.cw3.
Can You supply me with newest template?
Yes, it's this post:
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=17638.msg132982#msg132982
Your template .cw3 file should be about 144K in size if it's the right one.
Quote from: stdout on August 15, 2016, 07:58:55 PM
Yes, it's this post:
http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=17638.msg132982#msg132982
Your template .cw3 file should be about 144K in size if it's the right one.
Thank You!
But I had the same name and size file. Will try "newest" :)
Honestly, I am enjoying this map very much, impressive design and game play. Lagging doesn't bother me much, the map should not suffer or be modified. I take my time and enjoy every moment, it's almost like painting. So far, the best PAC map I have ever played. THANK YOU.
Gruesome lag, and once I were past the 2000 assist support, it was essentially just a waiting game, often interrupted and reset by Bertha fire.
The size of the map made it then a seeking game to check which spot might look promising, plus trial&error afterwards.
Not fun.
Fresh video of this map from Master DarkRubberNeck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0x4AsSGiuY