This topic is for discussion of map #148: Mediterranean
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=148)
Author: ThirdParty
Size: 212x97
Desc:
It's West vs. East in the battle for control of the Mediterranean! #Digitalis infests the high ground, encouraging you to build mainly in the lake basin. #Runners are everywhere, but fortunately carry no payload. #NoSpores. #NoTechLimits, but you get an extra 30,000 points if you voluntarily refrain from using Terps and Berthas. #RealWorld #Earth #Europe #Italy #MediterraneanSea #3P
I can't even take Rome, let alone Venice.
Really, I somehow managed to beat Farbor (2nd phase), I should be able to get one runner nest.
:P
Those runners are tough. I'm trying to set up a collector network, but they just keep knocking my production down to 7 or less; not enough to hold off the creeper, let alone kill those runners.
I'm horrible at this. :P
Edit: 30 minutes into the mission, and I have secured a foothold, and collected my first aether pack.
E2: Yay! Almost time to place my first nullifier! ...at the 53 minute mark. I suck :P
I love the way you tell the story with your #tags. Makes it seem...more alive. I may have to do that as well when I have a map.
score punishing for bertha use makes sense, but i think punishing for terping is silly, since it already affects your score negatively cos of the extra time/energy cost. it's also sort of mean, since many players will want to neaten up all your messy terrain due to their ocd and you make it so they can't get a high score.
so i will not be finishing this map now i found this out. takes all the fun out for me if i know i have to play maps in a certain way to even compete for score time. shame cos you put a lot of effort into your maps, but i dislike limitations on tactics enough to just move onto the next map
tek - I think TP did it this way so that he/she didn't have to totally block terps and berthas, but make the competitive game without them, if that makes any sense. That way, the people who play for fun can have fun, and the people who play for score have some extra challenges.
Quote from: Michionlion on January 26, 2014, 10:42:04 AM
tek - I think TP did it this way so that he/she didn't have to totally block terps and berthas, but make the competitive game without them, if that makes any sense. That way, the people who play for fun can have fun, and the people who play for score have some extra challenges.
Mich- i understand that, just had to point out my feelings. i like to have fun and sometimes go for scores, so most maps get played first for fun then i will/may replay for a score, it's just this is something that puts me off :)
Quote from: Michionlion on January 26, 2014, 10:42:04 AM
tek - I think 3P did it this way so that he/she didn't have to totally block terps and berthas, but make the competitive game without them, if that makes any sense. That way, the people who play for fun can have fun, and the people who play for score have some extra challenges.
I completely agree here, but please use 3P for ThirdParty, TP is for ThePenguin.
Lowering score for terping is because you will destroy important cultural and geographical heritage of earth :P
tek & Mich -
I think it is just a function of map makers trying out the variations of CW3, but there is a fairly significant percentage of games being posted that just aren't worth my time to play - AND - are simply no fun.
I really make an effort to stay positive in my comments...and I am POSITIVE that maps with these kinds of restrictions aren't as much fun as they could be.
H
Quote from: teknotiss on January 26, 2014, 10:39:33 AMso i will not be finishing this map now i found this out. takes all the fun out for me if i know i have to play maps in a certain way to even compete for score time. shame cos you put a lot of effort into your maps, but i dislike limitations on tactics enough to just move onto the next map
Quote from: Helper on January 26, 2014, 10:47:40 AMI really make an effort to stay positive in my comments...and I am POSITIVE that maps with these kinds of restrictions aren't as much fun as they could be.
That's disappointing. I thought I'd come up with the perfect compromise for people like you two.
The high scores list keeps track of players' best scores
and players' best times, and can be sorted by either. So it didn't seem necessary to keep score and time in lock-step with one another. I figured that players who wanted to play without unit restrictions could compete for best time, and players who wanted to try the voluntary unit restriction challenge, and thus face a map that required a different strategy from other maps, could compete for best score.
Oh, well. It seemed worth trying the experiment to see how people would react. Now I know.
Well, I'm accustomed to playing without TERPs or Berthas... they just don't click for me; I'll use them when I have to, but I hardly ever do.
Quote from: ThirdParty on January 26, 2014, 11:16:28 AM
Oh, well. It seemed worth trying the experiment to see how people would react. Now I know.
@3P -
People such as yourself (map makers) are kind of the engine that drives this train and I always try to make it a point to thank those folks for the work they do.
There were obviously those who enjoyed the game, so you have a receptive audience. Take my comments with a grain of salt and as nothing more than one man's opinion.
H
Quote from: Helper on January 26, 2014, 02:26:17 PMThere were obviously those who enjoyed the game, so you have a receptive audience. Take my comments with a grain of salt and as nothing more than one man's opinion.
I know, but I want to understand how to appeal to more people.
And I just don't see why the points penalty for using terps and berthas would interfere with your fun in any way. You're able to play the map using all units, and are able to compete for best time against other people who used all units. How does the existence of a second high scores list, for people who accepted unit restrictions, interfere with you enjoying the map your way?
Quote from: ThirdParty on January 26, 2014, 02:43:20 PM
Quote from: Helper on January 26, 2014, 02:26:17 PMThere were obviously those who enjoyed the game, so you have a receptive audience. Take my comments with a grain of salt and as nothing more than one man's opinion.
I know, but I want to understand how to appeal to more people.
And I just don't see why the points penalty for using terps and berthas would interfere with your fun in any way. You're able to play the map using all units, and are able to compete for best time against other people who used all units. How does the existence of a second high scores list, for people who accepted unit restrictions, interfere with you enjoying the map your way?
For some (many? most? few?) achieving a high score is part, if not all, of the fun. Take ea3401, for example. High-score bearer on almost every map. Whether that's his/her fun or not I can't tell, but I suspect it probably is.
Quote from: ThirdParty on January 26, 2014, 02:43:20 PM
How does the existence of a second high scores list, for people who accepted unit restrictions, interfere with you enjoying the map your way?
My nemesis is lack of Totems/Aether. The whole Forge function is such an incredible improvement over prior versions of CW, and not having it available is like being reined in.
H
Quote from: ThirdParty on January 26, 2014, 11:16:28 AM
The high scores list keeps track of players' best scores and players' best times, and can be sorted by either. So it didn't seem necessary to keep score and time in lock-step with one another. I figured that players who wanted to play without unit restrictions could compete for best time, and players who wanted to try the voluntary unit restriction challenge, and thus face a map that required a different strategy from other maps, could compete for best score.
Everyone is different, but my preferred play method is the speed run - probably because the original Creeper World had the score tied directly to the time.
With the advent of points to pick up in CW2, I modified my play method - I'd first play for a fast time, then replay for my best score.
Two games for the price of one!
Can't wait to try your map dude.
It seems like some people are being terribly one-sided here. I think that having multiple play-styles is ALWAYS a good thing, no matter if one is for people who enjoy highscores or not. I would definitely encourage you, 3P, to make more maps like this. I, for one, really enjoyed it, although I never got around to finishing...
Quote from: Helper on January 26, 2014, 02:54:20 PM
Quote from: ThirdParty on January 26, 2014, 02:43:20 PM
How does the existence of a second high scores list, for people who accepted unit restrictions, interfere with you enjoying the map your way?
My nemesis is lack of Totems/Aether. The whole Forge function is such an incredible improvement over prior versions of CW, and not having it available is like being reined in.
H
in this i agree with Helper, the score penalty i could prob live with (and i may eventually replay this map, it just put's me off for now), but the killer is the lack of upgrades, make the forge cheap and whack a limited aether or two down and this map is much more playable.
also i think berthas are more useful so i'd have done the points the other way round.
don't worry about what we say too much, it's our opinions, and you have made some really fun maps.
i guess being forced to respond to threats is fun, and being forced to alter you play style without any threats isn't for me.
still i give you top scores for your maps designs, you clearly work at them.
make more maps, i just want you to remember us terpers are already punished everytime we start our first terp! ;)
I respectfully suggest that you guys take the "what makes a popular map" conversation to the Custom Map Discussion Board (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?board=32.0) where other map makers may find and participate in the thread. It is a discussion that happens a number of times for each release of Creeper World.
This one was an interesting exercise in sneaking collectors etc in between strands of digitalis. (And in placing snipers to keep the runners from knocking out big sections of my network.)
Done without either terps or berthas, and I figured the aether packs weren't worth the effort. (once I finally spotted them.)
One of my favorite maps played to date. So often maps played end up resembling an old Risk board -- with 'one army' remaining in each of the conquered territories, forgotten as the fronts advance.
The 'digi on this map makes you pay for conquered areas with a standing army if you wish to develop them beyond collectors. Terrific initial defense, and several strategic chokepoints. Finished w/o terps or bertha, but I agree with above comments that having them optional is a plus for replay 'scorched earth' assault.
I sortof wonder if I was the only one who actually cut off all the digitalis and expanded. I had blasters parked all around the outside of the map preventing the digitalis from coming back.
It also took me a bit to realize that there was no draining the western ocean. Though instead of just accepting that I had mortars constantly killing it off... even though there was no point to it.
I really enjoy the point penalty for terps and berthas. Terping makes this level MUCH easier because then you can build sniper towers and flatten areas to fit more reactors. So playing without terps is a fun challenge.
Berthas aren't really very useful here, there's just not enough creeper to warrant them. I can't imagine how to do it without terps, though.