If you disable a Forge, you lose the upgrades, but re-enabling it will give them back. When a forge is destroyed and you rebuild it, however, all of the upgrades are lost and the costs are reset as if you were building it for the first time. I don't know if this is intentional but it really breaks maps that rely on aether packs and it's harsh even on others. The forge is suddenly by far the most important building to protect from spores and there's no way to make a backup system.
So, bug or not? Either way it ruins the fun.
I'm pretty sure if you pause to think for a minute, you'll be able to figure out the rationale.
If a library is locked, the books are still in there, but you just an't read them. Unlock the library and you have access to all the books again. Burn the library down and .. well, not so much. You have to rebuild the library and then reacquire the books.
Also, imagine an armory.
Lock up the armory and the weapons cannot be used. Unlock it, and you can use them again.
Lose it to the enemy and you need new weapons.
Okay, the rational makes sense, but it should still be changed somehow. Let us build more than one forge for redundancy. Even before I noticed this I wondered why the limit is one; if people want to waste resources building multiple, let them. It's not like beams are disabled on sporeless maps.
I would have to agree. I never really knew this would ever happen, but i think a sensical way might be to allow a second forge which would only just allow a sort of backup of all gained upgrades.
Either than or change it to not do that and use the excuse that the upgrades are way more complex than we are led on to believe.
I dunno, but a second forge would be a good way to atleast avoid losing max all upgrades or something ridiculous like that :)
Yeah I was surprised when this happened too.
The reasoning given above does make sense, but then it would be nice to be able to build a second one if you know that the first one is in a risky spot.
That would allow some of the random/custom maps to have more flexibility. Especially one some maps don't have totems and only have the aether crystals.
There ever only was one Library of Alexandria. Treat your Forge as such.
Not to mention only one Library of Congress.
Just adding support to the above rational statement.
If I wanted to spend the resources doing it, I could make a complete copy of the Library of Congress without having to destroy the original. Isn't the forge supposed to be technology research? If there's only one copy of it then yes, it makes some sense to be lost forever... but there's no reason to limit it to just one copy.
But there is- how does the game determine which copy to send Aether to? How does the game handle switching the 'primary' forge? Those aren't just trivial problems.
Besides that, the same argument could be made for retaining the forge upgrades between missions, which is definitely a game balance decision.
Upgrades are done by forge. More than one forge means buying the same upgrade as many times as there are forges.
Also, the collected aether spread about multiple forges acts against the Singer (singularity weapon). The more aether there is in one forge, the longer it will (it must be long to work right) take the artificial black hole to reach the crescendo of its calling-all-creeper chorus.
Quote from: kwinse on November 11, 2013, 01:57:01 PM
But there is- how does the game determine which copy to send Aether to? How does the game handle switching the 'primary' forge? Those aren't just trivial problems.
Either the closest one or cycling between all of them. Maybe an option to set that per totem.
For a while I thought only the units connected to the network that the Forge was on would have that upgrade applied. I'm glad that's not the case, but it would make an interesting mechanic.
for the sake of argument I say allow more than one forge but make the second cost so much it would take 8 hours to build.
I am not sure why people are building a forge where it is in jeopardy of being destroyed much less wanting to build more than one. they are expensive and have no offensive or defensive capability. not to mention the totems are the limiting factor not the forge.
Regardless of how you argue the story rational, from a gameplay perspective is there any reason to limit the number of forges? As far as I can tell, no, unless this behavior is SPECIFICALLY intended. In which case, can someone give a good explanation for how it makes the game more fun? That's the only reason to specifically design a feature...
I don't see why would you put a Forge in a dangerous place in the first place. If it's easily the most important structure on the map, you should treat it as such and defend appropriately. I don't recall my forges ever being destroyed, mainly because I only build them when I have a strong presence on the map which means I can actually afford it.
It depends how you understand Aether... it could work both ways:
- teach us how to create upgrades - therefore copying them and storing would be possible
- create upgrades - which means second Forge - twice as much Aether needed for a copy
And it's more the latter, because we don't spend energy on actually getting the upgrades, only Aether (unless you treat sending occasional ammo packets as spending energy on upgrades, not to actually upkeep the structure).
I don't see how the current mechanics of the Forge make the game less fun. If anything the Forge is one of the most uninspired and routine structures in the game, which is really just the same thing as in CW2, except it's an actual structure, and not just a menu.
This whole debate on whether to allow multiple forges by default is, at this point, obviously not going to go anywhere.
The forge is too distinguishable in its own wright to be cloned on the same battlefield, and too valuable to build dangerously close to enemy lines.
It would not serve any good purpose to build more than one anyway.
... except some people are saying they are getting theirs blown up. Whether that's from spores or unchecked creeper growth, I couldn't tell you, but it's apparently a bit of an issue for some players... the "good purpose" would be investing some extra resources to protect your upgrades.
The thing "only" costs 100 packets. Berthas cost more, and aren't exactly unique. Many other structures cost only somewhat less (reactors, terps?), and are used by the dozens. If totems simply sent their Aether to the nearest Forge, and there was a global pool of Aether for spending on upgrades (meaning it wouldn't matter which Forge you had selected when you bought an upgrade), this would solve the issue for everyone: those of us who don't get our forges blown up would go on building 1, and those who do could build an extra to solve that issue.
One reason I would want multiple forges is if I built my first on in a bad spot, and needed to move it for some reason.
Pro gaming tip #47: Don't build expensive titan units in a "bad spot."
What if it was a good spot at first, but later found out I was wrong?
Take that new found knowledge with you on your next play through!
Yeah, I agree about the need to simply defend your Forge well. I normally put two beams and at least on cannon near it even if it's completely safe. You. Just. Never. Know.
Also, the reason a second Forge wouldn't help is because the Aether actually becomes the medium that the data is stored on...hence why you need to collect the Aether and why you have to do it on each level (and why you can't bring it with you). I assume the Command Centers just don't have the necessary abilities or space to store the Aether properly and hence why you need a new one each time you land on a planet. (Now if we could only find a way to add rocket boosters to the Forge :P)
Making a second Forge would now suddenly double your Aether stores and it would actually double the research time needed if you built a second one. :(
EDIT: Going along with the library analogy... Building a second Forge is like building a second library that is empty. It needs to be filled with books, but those books are made of Aether.
And those books in the 2nd one would lower the amount in the first one, and it would minimize the learning quality of the first one and the second would not be any better.
I think it's ok as it is now but if you'd want to create forge-backups I think the best solution is to make a new building which can't act as a forge but only backup the upgrades you made and after your forge gets destroyed you need to build a second one to get the uppgrades again.
On maps where the forge is intended to be able to be lostyou could then just disable that building.
Quote from: Grauniad on November 10, 2013, 12:01:55 AM
I'm pretty sure if you pause to think for a minute, you'll be able to figure out the rationale.
If a library is locked, the books are still in there, but you just an't read them. Unlock the library and you have access to all the books again. Burn the library down and .. well, not so much. You have to rebuild the library and then reacquire the books.
I think this reasoning is flawed. These aren't books, they are weapons of war. If a factory manufactures tanks, and the factory burns down, the tanks won't suddenly stop working, you just won't be able to build new ones. If anything, the weapons that had the upgrades should keep their same effectiveness, but newly made blasters and such should start with no upgrades. Same goes for the armory analogy, you can't suddenly not use the weapons that were already outside the armory when it got destroyed. You may run out of ammo for them, but these particular blasters and such use the same ammo that the no upgrade blasters use. Locking or burning down a library has no affect on the books that were already checked out!
Edit: Infact, having some books checked out, would make it easier to make new copies of that book than it would to start from scratch. Having upgraded blasters on around, should make it easier to regain that technology, than starting from scratch. So at the very least, there should be a price decrease for upgrades, and already built weapons should retain their upgraders.
Quote from: Grauniad on November 10, 2013, 04:52:17 PM
There ever only was one Library of Alexandria. Treat your Forge as such.
Just to play the devil's advocate here....I've never been to the library of Alexandria(I know it was destroyed), or Congress, yet I can still build a house, and use a weapon, create one if necessary, and do many other "advances". Just because a tire factory burns down, we don't have to re-invent the wheel.
Having two forges does create a lot of problems. IE: Do you split the aether going to each one? Which one gets priority? ect...
Removing the penalty of loosing ALL tech advances to a destroyed forge seems to be the appropriate correction. Having the tech advances removed UNTIL the forge is reconstructed seems to be a better solution.IMO.
"One reason I would want multiple forges is if I built my first on in a bad spot, and needed to move it for some reason."
This is another good reason that the removal of all tech advances seems a bad idea. Newer maps are getting increasingly difficult and not being able to relocate a valuable asset such as the forge is a harsh penalty. It seriously reduces options when playing a map. Hours can be lost do to unforeseen map designer "surprises". Not a scenario I look forward to. :(
Personally I'm fine with the way the forge operates now. Regardless of any real world analogy it is what it is. I'm ok with changes that make tedious things easier(adding in esc to enter/exit main menu, or new keybinds for example). But some things have to make the game challenging, and one of those is the need to carefully place your forge and protect it, or face the consequences. Also such a fundamental change could invalidate some times.
That being said... Perhaps giving the ability to map makers to allow forges to relocate just like weapons would be cool. This could be on/off from the start, changed by a crpl event, or added in as a very expensive aether upgrade.
That would be a nice CRPL custom setting.
In the real game, I don't think mobility in the either of the first 2 titans would be necessary. With great power comes great need to stay where you are and make use of it the best way possible as such.
I have to agree with the folks who say one Forge is enough & should be appropriately protected, not unlike the way you protect your Orbitals.
But I suppose I must add that I haven't attempted to play the Alpha Sector yet, so perhaps my opinion is not worth much.
There are many weapons that cannot be moved once built. Bombers, Stratfers & Berthas come to mind. Guppies, too. It is just all part of the game play. If it were too easy, people would complain about that. In fact, I am certain there is a thread with that title regarding Arc Eternal.
So we're at Lincoln's quote:
"You can please some of the people some of the time all of the people some of the time some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time."
― Abraham Lincoln
Cancel the above. The correct word is FOOL, not PLEASE and the quote is shorter:
You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
Abraham Lincoln
Depends on your source material. But I think the latter is correct. Although the former apparently applies to some CW3 users. And others in the world for that matter. Just IMHO.
All in all, a pretty thoughtful discussion.
I agree that the analogies to libraries and armories don't hold up as strongly as you think AND it would be easier if the Forge could move.
However, nothing gets you into the mindset of a battle faster than taking a shot to the teeth. I lost my forge once, saw the effect, and thought "Damn, get your butt in gear and fight, fight, fight!"
And in a game, that's what I'm looking for. CW3 excels at putting me into that mind frame, and more importantly, relieving me of worrying about the trivialities of life. I especially like CW3 because a play session can be 3-30 minutes based on the world I find myself on. I don't have to play for hours on end....although I do ;).
Whether or not the explanation "works", I appreciate Virgil's effort to balance the myriad factors in game mechanics to provide an enthralling experience.
Slayer
Quote from: Nephthys on December 10, 2013, 01:11:23 AM"...There are many weapons that cannot be moved once built. Bombers, Stratfers & Berthas come to mind. Guppies, too. .."
Having to re-locate a Strafer, Bomber, Guppie, or Bertha, does NOT cause you to loose thousands of units of aether, or throw you back into the "stone-age". Having to re-deploy your Forge WILL.
Quote from: Otterbear on December 10, 2013, 06:31:47 PM
Quote from: Nephthys on December 10, 2013, 01:11:23 AM"...There are many weapons that cannot be moved once built. Bombers, Stratfers & Berthas come to mind. Guppies, too. .."
Having to re-locate a Strafer, Bomber, Guppie, or Bertha, does NOT cause you to loose thousands of units of aether, or throw you back into the "stone-age". Having to re-deploy your Forge WILL.
Essentially, it all comes down to this: Did you place your Forge carefully? If you need to move it that's your mistake (or the intention of the map maker). It is not the Forge's mistake.
And also -- can we make stone-age an official CW3 term for pre-Forge or not having a forge/disabling it?
Quote from: Nephthys on December 10, 2013, 01:11:23 AM
I have to agree with the folks who say one Forge is enough & should be appropriately protected, not unlike the way you protect your Orbitals.
As long as you have other orbitals deployed, the game is pretty forgiving with them. An orbital that is about to die shoots back into space, and you can redeploy it in about a minute. It'd really only be bad to lose an orbital if a networks only possible energy source was from that orbital, and the creeper was barely being held off by weapons.
Quote from: Imposter on December 10, 2013, 10:09:34 PM
Quote from: Nephthys on December 10, 2013, 01:11:23 AM
I have to agree with the folks who say one Forge is enough & should be appropriately protected, not unlike the way you protect your Orbitals.
As long as you have other orbitals deployed, the game is pretty forgiving with them. An orbital that is about to die shoots back into space, and you can redeploy it in about a minute. It'd really only be bad to lose an orbital if a networks only possible energy source was from that orbital, and the creeper was barely being held off by weapons.
Yeah, I thought about Orbitals deploying back into space & not being destroyed like a forge, so not necessarily the best analogy. I was just trying to say they are two unit types that a player would/should try their hardest to protect. Plus, I guess I was remembering CW2 where it is game over if you lose OdinCity. Mixing games instead of metaphors.