Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz

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This topic is for discussion of map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress


Author: Grabz
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DutchPro

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #1 on: August 23, 2021, 09:19:37 am
More forgiving than Hypnotic22's version due to the fortress map.
This mode has a few issues imo, I spent around 1 hour in game time popping mystery boxes to get greenar + farmer. It's too random at this moment. Sometimes you need snipers and and instead only get florbs/blobs. Pretty frustrating. Also it should have a speed ramp up.
At some point you are just spamming medium boxes. Titan boxes take out too many units to make it worth while



hypnotic22

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #2 on: August 24, 2021, 11:11:48 am
More forgiving than Hypnotic22's version due to the fortress map.
This mode has a few issues imo, I spent around 1 hour in game time popping mystery boxes to get greenar + farmer. It's too random at this moment. Sometimes you need snipers and and instead only get florbs/blobs. Pretty frustrating. Also it should have a speed ramp up.
At some point you are just spamming medium boxes. Titan boxes take out too many units to make it worth while

The only issues the map has is RNG   ;)

Say we boost the greenar but then you get no redon, so we boost that. now we get no bluite so we boost that, then we got to few refineries so we boost that and we end up with no greenar so we boost that.
Do you see where i'm going with this.
The name of the game is random and the long grind, so it can't be too random and a side effect of that is, some are gonna have bad luck and a bad time !  nothing i can do about that.

in the eyes of the creators the box is at a good balance and major rebalancing is not gonna happen, at least for now.
i knew from the start that this box stuff was gonna be the source of much frustration, for that i am sorry.

all i'm gonna say about the Titan box is, it is supposed to try and kill you.  ;D



CS Z

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #3 on: August 24, 2021, 12:21:17 pm
I too liked this map better than the other ones.  Although I cheesed the start by plopping the base next to the skimmer factory and spore launcher and nullified those right away since there were some free mortars and snipers.  I didn't use any Mystery or Titan boxes (i.e. I gave up on the totem objective).

Instead of pure random, just randomize an item schedule from a preset list of items and quantities.  Maybe the Friend box type has a schedule of 10 cannons, 7 mortars, 3 sprayers, 2 snipers, 2 miners, 1 ERN, etc.  You are then guaranteed to get all of those but in a random order.  Then the list resets and re-randomizes from the schedule once it has been depleted.  That way, map balance is generally maintained across playthroughs rather than being dramatically under or overpowered depending on the random seed.  Schedules could also change based on how much time has passed in-game.  So maybe you get more resource building items and weaker units earlier on (first 10-15 minutes) and more of everything else later on.

That said, Friend box scaling is far too aggressive to be enjoyable, IMO.  Opening a Mystery box should reduce the amount of time the next Friend boxes take.  And opening a Titan should provide a much greater reduction to Friend boxes.



alche

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #4 on: August 24, 2021, 02:52:07 pm
maybe theres need to be a mode where every mystery box is good and pops up something usefull and at the same time it pops something bad somewhere random around the map?
im finding that i have to quick save a lot...



Durikkan

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #5 on: August 24, 2021, 06:04:51 pm
The only issues the map has is RNG   ;)

Say we boost the greenar but then you get no redon, so we boost that. now we get no bluite so we boost that, then we got to few refineries so we boost that and we end up with no greenar so we boost that.
Do you see where i'm going with this.
The name of the game is random and the long grind, so it can't be too random and a side effect of that is, some are gonna have bad luck and a bad time !  nothing i can do about that.


I think it would benefit from a bit more structure to the randomness so it's more about adapting to what you get rather than bad early luck basically forcing you to restart the map, but it's not my mod so I'll just say that and no more.   :)

I'm known as Auri in cw4.


Grabz

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #6 on: August 25, 2021, 05:12:02 am
That said, Friend box scaling is far too aggressive to be enjoyable, IMO.  Opening a Mystery box should reduce the amount of time the next Friend boxes take.  And opening a Titan should provide a much greater reduction to Friend boxes.
The current idea behind it is to get an early 'burst' of rewards from it and then a slow but steady increase later on to put your spare energy towards. The scaling used to be much less aggressive (+5 per box) and what ended up happening is you got a massive army from this box and didn't really need to interact much with the mystery box. I am a big fan of the idea of having a much more limited fighting force than you normally have in creeper world and I understand if it feels like a shocking gameplay shift. If you feel like you're not getting many units it's not because rng is messing with you, it's because I tried to specifically design this so that your force will be small, and gradually increase as you get stronger and can open more boxes.

For quicker response, reply to me directly at Grabz#4707 on Discord. Find me on the KC server: https://discord.gg/knucklecracker


EricPhail

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #7 on: August 25, 2021, 10:53:24 am
My opinion:
1. Friend boxes get silly too quickly (especially given how easy it is to be sniper or missile deficient
2. Mystery boxes lean way too far to the nasty (10+ florb stick things - do you think I'm made of Snipers?) - I don't think restart immediatley/save scum required is a good thing
3. The buried ERN feels pointless (I've never seen a Terp)



Grabz

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #8 on: August 26, 2021, 08:31:58 am
I don't think restart immediatley/save scum required is a good thing
I appreciate your feedback but I have to call this out so that other people don't get the wrong idea - save scum is far, far from required on this map, which is the easiest in this series so far (note me saying easiest, not easy). I've completed the first two hypnotic22's maps as well as this map without any save scumming. I still quicksave often just in case (mainly because I'm afraid of a few game crashes that can occur at the moment), but it was very rare I actually needed to load, and it was primarily because of doing silly things after I've already won. Save scumming exists because of two reasons, one is that there is no feasible way to remove it, and the other is that players who aren't as versed in the game can opt to go that route either temporarily or for a full playthrough if they wish to give themselves an edge.

You are correct in saying that the aren't a lot of units in the beginning, but there are alternate ways of dealing with pretty much the grand majority of threats that come from mystery boxes. This map specifically also gives quite a lot of energy at the beginning which translates into a lot of friend boxes and a sizable starting army. You only have two chokepoints you really have to defend to be invulnerable from any and all Creeper pressure and you are given almost enough mortars and snipers from the beginning to perform that task.

Perhaps a recording of my playthrough says more than a thousand words (see attachment).

(10+ florb stick things - do you think I'm made of Snipers?)
Forbs are quite tough and if you got a big spawn of them (5+) early on that is a pretty unlucky occurrence, but remember that you can change Sniper targeting mode to no longer target Glops so that they can focus entirely on the Forbs themselves. Understand I've not made this mode with the intention of it being evil, I've made it a challenge, and it certainly tests your knowledge of CW4.

For quicker response, reply to me directly at Grabz#4707 on Discord. Find me on the KC server: https://discord.gg/knucklecracker


Grabz

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #9 on: August 26, 2021, 08:32:31 am
Part 2 of my replay from the post above, forum was giving me trouble uploading them together.

For quicker response, reply to me directly at Grabz#4707 on Discord. Find me on the KC server: https://discord.gg/knucklecracker


Harlequin13X

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #10 on: August 28, 2021, 02:40:17 pm
This is really creative and fun! Man is it frustrating though... RNGesus and I have never had a good relationship and this sure hasn't helped haha

I do have one question though... It doesn't seem like it is truly random? It kinda seems like maybe maybe, certain things pop up either in the same order every time (mystery boxes) or with certain things depending on where they are placed on the map (friendly boxes). not sure if it's true or not, but it just seems like a possibility.

I do think the friendly boxes get too over-priced too quickly, especially since they are loaded with "ammo" rather than built, so it takes forever to fulfill some of them.

Super interesting build! Wish I knew how to make stuff like this haha



Grabz

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Re: Custom Map #2206: Tale of the Mysterious Fortress. By: Grabz
Reply #11 on: August 28, 2021, 03:17:36 pm
As soon as you unpause the game all of the box results will be randomly predetermined. Positioning itself does not matter. You can restart fully to get new randomness but from that point on everything opens in a sequence.

For quicker response, reply to me directly at Grabz#4707 on Discord. Find me on the KC server: https://discord.gg/knucklecracker