Bertha VS Strafer

[Xeneonic]

Greetings,

I have a question regarding the efficiency (Bang for buck(energy), bang for space usage(per cell)) of Strafers against Bertha's. I'm stuck in a stalemate in Alpha Sector:Blaze:Fortress Siege. I mention this map specifically because you can assume the following things:

1. There's unlimited creeper; no energy is wasted on an explosion on empty ground
2. There isn't much room for improvement in lay-out

What it comes down to for me probably is that I could replace 4 strafer pads with 1 bertha, 8 with 2, 12 for 3 etc. But I am wondering if it is more efficient, seeing room is the largest issue here, and thus also energy regeneration, I am wondering if there's actually raw data on "when" and "if" bertha's become more efficient:

Strafers take up 9 cells (3x3), Bertha's 25 (5x5). So technically while it does take 4 Strafer pads for 1 bertha, but assuming 9 bertha's vs 25 strafers (exact cell space) you get 1 Bertha every 2.778 Strafers. What's the actual breakline when one becomes more efficient, if at all?


So assuming on a cell-by-cell basis, which gives more bang per cell and which gives more bang per energy?:

Strafer: Amount of damage / 9 cells = ???
Bertha: Amount of damage / 25 cells = ???

Anyone has any clue, is it even a close call? If strafers do win "easily", how much flight time is assumed?

Theorycrafting \o/.


P.s. Same question about mortars vs cannons, but I do assume cannons do a lot more damage, am I wrong? (same cell space so that makes it easier)


TL;DR: Do 9 Bertha's deal more damage than 25 Strafers, assuming no energy goes wasted?



Edit: Added picture for visualisation.
Edit2: A bit more accuracy added.

[Karsten75]

This table is incomplete, but since a Strafer does as much damage as a Pulse Cannon, I'd venture to say that a Bertha would do substantially more damage. One other factor is the rate of damage. Strafers and PCs deal damage much faster than a Bertha does.

The usual hierarchy on order of ascending damage/descending speed is: (PC/Strafer):Mortar:Bertha

[knucracker]

Bertha's should win handily if targeted at very dense Creeper.  If you fire a bertha at a pool of shallow 1-depth Creeper, you will destroy all of it.  If you fire the same Bertha at a pool with the same surface area but that is 100 deep, the Bertha will still destroy all of it.  It's similar to how mortar shots damage deeper than PC shots.

[Xeneonic]

The Emitters at Fortress Siege cast Creeper at 2000 every 0.03 seconds. A bertha definitely doesn't seem to get anywhere near to clearing all the creep with one shot, in that area, not even if the area is far away from the Emitter. There's Creeper at ~700 levels like 15 cells away from the Emitter and that definitely doesn't get cleared by a single bertha shot. I think I'd call it lucky if it removes 100 levels of it?

I realized that sustained damage from Strafers is higher, but I was meaning in my post to factor in all these into the formula. Like how many levels deep does creeper have to be for bertha to become more effective over say, a 10 minute up-time on both Strafer and Bertha, which would clear the most. I like theorycrafting like this but I don't know all the details myself to make an assessment like that.

P.S. I managed to beat the Fortress Siege map with just a frontal assault instead of having guppies in the back like other people have done it. Am I the first? Did someone else do it like that as well? I have screenshots if anyone's interested :D. (Only(!) took me 8 hours and 45 minutes or so)

[Asbestos]

Berthas clear all of the creeper they hit. The creeper just rushes back in very quickly.

[Tjgalon]

sometimes it also mater if you have a bertha on a PZ also, to make it really help. i remember, Bertha, and singular charge is a great combo, to take out hard emitters.

[J]

Berthas clear all of the creeper they hit. The creeper just rushes back in very quickly.

Bertha's don't clear all creeper they hit, they can only destroy 100 layers of each cell hit. Creeper usually flows back really quick so it 'damages' the whole area around it, unless shot at an emitter emitting 2000 creeper every frame (0.03 seconds).

[Xeneonic]

sometimes it also mater if you have a bertha on a PZ also, to make it really help. i remember, Bertha, and singular charge is a great combo, to take out hard emitters.

On Fortress Siege you sadly do not have a Forge and thus no upgrades nor singularity :(

[Tjgalon]

sometimes it also mater if you have a bertha on a PZ also, to make it really help. i remember, Bertha, and singular charge is a great combo, to take out hard emitters.

On Fortress Siege you sadly do not have a Forge and thus no upgrades nor singularity :(

Aww, opps, i forgot about that, hehe, then maybe it was sheilds and bertha, hehe, and maybe terp to get it off the ground

[4xC]

As far as I am concerned, it's all about results.

There's the bertha, the CW3 equivalent of "The Big One". In regards to damage output and energy usage, the bertha is a definite heavy hitter.

Spoiler

Just 9 of them will render the Vapen Field Beam useless.

[close]

There's also the strafer, unmanned fighters (which ironically can't attack flyers whether there are enough flyers to provoke that debate or not) that either focus attacks on one spot in any line across the spot, or in a straight line ID'ed by the player. Strafers may not require as much energy, but they cannot fly faster than berthas.

All things considered in addition to what I just said, I think berthas win.

[Nephthys]

All things considered in addition to what I just said, I think berthas win.

I agree! I'll take a Bertha over a Strafer any day. I especially love to build Berthas on PZs, since you get SO much more from her on a PZ.

[12345ieee]

In the attached image there is the result of a Bertha shot in a pool of creeper of height 100, the white squares are the ones actually hit by the Bertha (a bit of creeper have already poured in, but that amount is missing from nearby cells).
I counted the squares and if my math is right a Bertha shot hits 311 subcells for a maximum possible damage of 100 creeper levels/cell.

Bertha shot

[close]

That puts a Bertha power at 311*100 ccc/150 ammo or 207.3 ccc/ammo.
In comparison from the wiki we learn that a Strafer does:
8 ccc/shot / 0.5 ammo/shot = 16 ccc/ammo.
So speaking about potential damage/ammo there is no match: the Bertha wins by 13 times.

Putting a Bertha on a PZ nearly sextuples its damage/ammo (there is a little overlap in the hitting zone and some delay between the 3 impacts).
Putting a Strafer on a PZ only doubles its damage/ammo.
Big Bertha gets even more advantage this way.

Even scaling this numer by the cell occupation ratio (25/9) still keeps the non PZ Bertha on top by a factor of 4.7 and PZs only strengthens Bertha's supremacy.
So Bertha wins in ccc/ammo and ccc/ammo/cell.

The other factor is dmg/second: we know that in a 150 energy cycle a Bertha does 31100 max dmg, while in a 50 energy cycle a Strafer does 16*50=800 max dmg.
So to keep up your strafer should complete 39 raids in the span of a Bertha reload, which I'd say is completely impossible.
Even factoring in the cell occupation ratio (25/9) we get an impossible 14 raids/reload, PZing everything only makes things worse for the Strafer.

Conclusion: independently of PZs, ammo, time and cell efficiency, if you need raw power the answer is always the Big Bertha.

[Tjgalon]

Though like most weapon, situation may demand something else. I still love a few strafer to mess with the digi, more so when used to break a link.

[steelwing]

Do I have quick access to at least three PZs?  If yes, I go for Berthas, because I can put a Bertha on one PZ and power it with reactors on the other PZs.  Strafers are more efficient otherwise.

[4xC]

Strafers are slower and less damaging than Berthas.

Plus, I think it is also a matter of timing. If you have a lot of Berthas and you want to go for that 2000, 0.03 emitter mentioned earlier, I think that after getting buku Berthas, you need to time the shots so that a shell always lands in such a rythmatic pattern with other shells that creeper cannot refill the spot anytime soon.

Strafers also require timing if you want to keep a lot of creeper put down. They DEFINITELY require timing if you want to keep down a string of digitalis and don't have a chance to use extra pulse cannons to do it.

Besides that however, a PZ Strafer shoots 2 rounds per attack and can attack 200 times before going back, yet it requires the same number of packets to do the job. Since a normal Strafer uses the same number of packets and attacks 100 times before returning and fires 1 round per attack, a Strafer in a PZ is mathematically quadrupled. A Bertha on the other hand requires half as many packets to fire and by firing 3 shells at once with each attack, it is indeed sextupled from a logical, physical, and mathematical standpoint.

And Berthas are Titans; need it be specified any further what makes berthas generally better in terms of raw superiority?

Both weapons have their uses, both are necessary in different scenarios, and both can do things that the other can't. But in terms of raw superiority, there's no question.