CW3 Suggestions Redux

[hoodwink]

I'm reading this and wondering: What does time-freezing the creeper actually accomplish?
For instance, if you wanted to stop the advance you would send cannons at it, or put a shield in it's way to push it back.
It seems over-complicated from a programming point of view just to render everything in a certain area inactive. Can't you build a couple of shields and blasters there instead, even a mortar if necessary? It seems to me that this would cost less energy and just freezing the whole thing. Although it will most likely be doable with scripts...

[Grauniad]

The whole oint about time-freezing is that it doesn't apply to you. Otherwise you could just use the pause option. The area affected by a time-freeze would turn the creeper (and digitalis, runners, etc.) immobile. Your units would still be able to attack, reducing the amount of creeper in the area in question. There would have to be a barrier between affected and unaffected creeper, though.

Logically, if time is frozen, nothing can be done in that area.

[Ronini]

The whole point about time-freezing is that it doesn't apply to you. Otherwise you could just use the pause option. The area affected by a time-freeze would turn the creeper (and digitalis, runners, etc.) immobile. Your units would still be able to attack, reducing the amount of creeper in the area in question. There would have to be a barrier between affected and unaffected creeper, though.

Logically, if time is frozen, nothing can be done in that area.

Logically, time cannot be frozen with anyone being aware of it. But computer games and logic seldom agree completely.

[lurkily]

The whole oint about time-freezing is that it doesn't apply to you. Otherwise you could just use the pause option.

I don't think anybody suggested that the time freeze should be or would be global - I agree, that would make no sense.

Logically, time cannot be frozen with anyone being aware of it. But computer games and logic seldom agree completely.

Well if time is frozen only in a localized area, then people outside that locality would be aware of it.  The physics are probably impossible, but when has that stopped video games?

I'm reading this and wondering: What does time-freezing the creeper actually accomplish?
For instance, if you wanted to stop the advance you would send cannons at it, or put a shield in it's way to push it back.

This is what I was trying to say in my last post here.  Why would I build a titan to time-freeze creeper so I could shoot it?  I would much rather build several shields, several extra blasters, several extra mortars, and spend less energy building them, finish them faster, and probably buy myself more time against the advance of creeper in the bargain.

[Ronini]

If you had to deal with a sudden massive wave of creeper (four letters: CRPL) that would simply overwhelm your shields and PCs, freezing it could be a way to save you. There are other situations this could be applicable, I'm sure. True, it won't be required in any case, though. But cutting off an area where no amount of creeper can enter for a period of time (i.e. a localized (time-)freeze) can be a viable strategy. Ultimately, it comes down to BALANCING the energy costs, as usual.
By the way, I wouldn't miss this feature one bit.

Logically, time cannot be frozen with anyone being aware of it. But computer games and logic seldom agree completely.

Well if time is frozen only in a localized area, then people outside that locality would be aware of it.  The physics are probably impossible, but when has that stopped video games?

It could be argued that if time runs on outside, it also runs on inside the area. What's being frozen is everything but time. Don't you love it that the more elementary physics gets, the more it looks like philosophy and rethoric?

EDIT: Following Lurkily's post below: See highlighting above.

[lurkily]

If you had to deal with a sudden massive wave of creeper (four letters: CRPL) that would simply overwhelm your shields and PCs, freezing it could be a way to save you.

It is one way, if the titan is already built.  For the energy you put into building that titan and powering it though, you could probably build the PC's and mortars and shields that would allow you to weather the storm, and damage more creeper instead.

[Shrike30]

Another related option might be a titan that slows down creeper expansion and other processes in a localized area; my recollection of the power generation from CW1 is that it involved quantum taps, so the technology is ostensibly available for a titan that could pull most of the thermal energy out of an area for a while.  Creeper would expand slower, your units would fire slower, everything would happen more slowly within the designated area... letting you cool down a hot spot while the rest of your economy goes on at full speed.

[Chawe800]

I ike that and would definitly see it in some scnarios. However I see some problems with it.

Since it's a Titan it would definitly take a lot of energy to create and operate making it ineffective in any rush scenarios.

If you really struggle to manage you can always slow the game down or pause it :P

[lurkily]

Another related option might be a titan that slows down creeper expansion and other processes in a localized area; my recollection of the power generation from CW1 is that it involved quantum taps, so the technology is ostensibly available for a titan that could pull most of the thermal energy out of an area for a while.  Creeper would expand slower, your units would fire slower, everything would happen more slowly within the designated area... letting you cool down a hot spot while the rest of your economy goes on at full speed.

I'm pretty sure this is already what we're talking about, yes?  Either stopping or slowing time in a localized area.

I don't think anybody pushing the idea is doing so because they want easier time management, Chawe, but the actual advantage of putting more shots into creeper in the time it would normally take that creeper to overcome them.  The problem is, you can do that more effectively by building more pulse cannons, rather than by building a titan.

Anti-rush weapons shouldn't be unweildy, awkward titan class units, and offensive weapons need to be more than a delaying action.

[Ronini]

Who says a titan unit has to be extremely expensive? Depending on the titans function, it cost could be relatively low. Besides, you might not have the room to place additional PCs, so you have to find a way to make the few you have more effective.

Another idea, that would be applicable in similar situations the above would be: A Conversion Bomber, which drops conversion bombs instead of anti-creeper pay-loads. Only useful, if there's no ore on the map, otherwise you could use regular bombers to much the same effect.

[MapMaster]

I thouht you could have a buildable Anti-Creeper releaser, like the one in CW2. I was also thinking you could have an Anti-Creeper Maker that generates Anti-Creeper away from home base. My last idea is a tower that synthesises Ore, so you can make AC when Ore is low.

[lurkily]

Who says a titan unit has to be extremely expensive? Depending on the titans function, it cost could be relatively low. Besides, you might not have the room to place additional PCs, so you have to find a way to make the few you have more effective.

Titans typically are effective enough to justify the expense, but not so effective that they obsolete an equal expense in conventional (non-titan) weapons.  If they are that effective, then they probably aren't balanced.  (With the caveat that there is an exception to every rule in game design - as the CW series helps prove.)

Less expense, less effect - radius, duration, etc.  It becomes something you put in conventional units.  And put in that categorization, using it over a couple of mortars or PC's makes even less business sense to me.

Well if time is frozen only in a localized area, then people outside that locality would be aware of it.  The physics are probably impossible, but when has that stopped video games?

It could be argued that if time runs on outside, it also runs on inside the area. What's being frozen is everything but time. Don't you love it that the more elementary physics gets, the more it looks like philosophy and rethoric?

If the unit says it freezes time, time stops.  From a design standpoint, that's as far as I care.  Physics and philosophy can be fascinating, but they can get juggled in another forum.  <Shrugs>

[Ronini]

Titans typically are effective enough to justify the expense, but not so effective that they obsolete an equal expense in conventional (non-titan) weapons.  If they are that effective, then they probably aren't balanced.  (With the caveat that there is an exception to every rule in game design - as the CW series helps prove.)

Less expense, less effect - radius, duration, etc.  It becomes something you put in conventional units.  And put in that categorization, using it over a couple of mortars or PC's makes even less business sense to me.

Your post opens the possibility that you may or may not know about more than one Titan, about which you may or may not be able and/or willing to elaborate, yet.
Apart from that, I'm not quite sure I understand what your point is, exactly? A chrono-reactor could, for instance, be armed long before it's time-stopping power is used, thus lowering the required energy at the moment of use in comparison to operating a higher number of weapons instead. In addition, eliminating more creeper with more cannons is not at all the same as stopping the flow of new creeper altogether.
Frankly, the more I think about time manipulation unit, the more I feel such a unit would fit in really well in the CW arsenal.

[lurkily]

I say 'most titans' in the sense of titan/experimental/superweapons in general, across many games, rather than specific to CW - nothing I said was in reference to CW development.

Yes, yes, you could spend the energy long before it's needed - and instead of having relatively easily built PC's and mortars that actually destroy creeper, you'd have an over-expensive toy that slowed it down at some expense, but didn't actually assist you in destroying more creeper. It won't even maintain deep creep for mortars - it would inhibit creeper flowing in just as effectively as creeper flowing out.

When the time freeze wears off, where are you?  In most cases you're looking for a balance, and balance is based on the pressure creeper exerts on your front.  This does not tip the balance, it only slows the shifting of the balance.  The situations in which that's useful are very limited, and most of those situations can be served by actually destroying creeper.

There's an adage in game design - focus on the design of fun, not the fun of design.  It's an interesting idea, and it's fun to explore the possibilities, but in this form I think most of its fun in gameplay would lie in novelty value. I think that this concept needs more, for real usefulness.  It needs to be developed further.  I'm not sure where to take it, but maybe someone else has ideas.

[koker93]

I really like the idea of a time slowing weapon.  a weapon that allows you to deliver more shots to the creeper as it advanced per second without a corresponding fire rate increase.  But such a weapon would really change the balance of the game, so what I've read seems correct.  It would have to be a titan class weapon.  Expensive to build and run.  Here is the problem with that though.  You cant normally build a titan class weapon right away.  You are busy using all your resources to build collectors and reactors and other non offensive infrastructure so you can attack later on.  if you start "wasting" packets on a titan you cant build reactors with them and probably die...so you wait.  But by the time you can afford to build the titan you can also afford to build conventional weapons.  Usually at this point in the level (at least for me, and I would guess most people who will read this) there is no possible way, other than complete carelessness that you can lose.  Once the base is built out, nothing else gets in the way.

It sounds like a really fun concept that I would like to play with in the game.  But it also sounds like it would be mostly a toy, just like the Thor in CW1.