Custom Map #2489: Cursor Assist - 02. By: Lord Cat

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This topic is for discussion of map #2489: Cursor Assist - 02


Author: Lord Cat
Size: 256x160

Further discussion on Discord

[Karsten75]

Most frustrating aspect of this (and the other maps in the same series) is how annoyingly bad the auto-build program is in choosing unit placement.

It build sprayers...

It builds the nullifier "behind" the enemy unit to be nullified. It build snipers that shoots at eggs and cause a tsunami that kills a bunch of associated units, it never build shields to protect units from eggs, it builds Missiles in inappropriate and unnecessary locations.

Don't get me started on the inefficiency of the network and pylon placement.

[Niflthaena]

I'm pretty sure this is using the rebuild script, not autopilot... which means all the unit placement was done by the map author.

Not that that really changes the nature of the complaint.

I can see how a design of "get all the way past the unit, then we'll secure it" makes sense to an author... but when it's supposedly handled by a helpful teammate, doing things so unhelpful sort of breaks the illusion.

[ApocalypticSquirrel]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I mean no ill will to the creator, but holy crap this is such an incredibly terrible level.
Did you even play it before you released it?

Karsten75 put it well, the placement of structures is absurdly bad, and I agree with Niflthaena in that they look like they were pre-placed.
This level makes it impossible to push in most directions by having cannons so sparsely and poorly located that I felt like an archeologist trying to dig for my next one.
Also, the emitter in the middle bottom having 1. its nullifier on the other side of it, 2. nowhere near as many canons as it should, and 3. a sniper right next to the emitter that cannot be turned off that triggers a massive egg wave has got to be one of the worst level design decisions I have seen in a long time. Please have a friend (who is willing to be very honest) play test your future maps.

[Niflthaena]

I'm... honestly going to have to disagree here. I actually really enjoy the map.

Granted, It does an awful job of emulating a helpful player, but it provides a different form of challenge from most of the maps, even the cursor ones. Balancing the helpful bits of the base with the harmful ones, reinforcing what's important while sacrificing what isn't, and dealing with creeper strong enough that there is no way to trivialize it... It manages to be pretty hard without simply being "your cursor is too weak so you have too little anticreeper", and to me it's a lot of fun.

Maybe there's a way to combine that with having a base that actively tries to help, though. Part of that is balance - adding more creeper and enemies, enough that more consistent and well-placed units don't overwhelm the map - but part of that is the way the cursor mod and autobuild mod simply weren't designed to work together in this way, and it needs some quality-of-life. A couple small ideas:

• Being able to click units to toggle them on and off. (This would avert the "a sniper causes an overwhelming cascade of creeper by popping way too many eggs" frustrations.)
• Having some sort of visibility over where towers will be placed. (This would avert the archaeological frustrations.) One option would be some sort of "ghost" of the units that lingers on the ground, even under creeper - but subtle enough to not be visually overwhelming. (I'd also do it only for defensive towers, the soylent towers and pylons are not really important.)

They're relatively small changes in code, but they are changes in code. I unfortunately don't have any better ideas that don't involve some modding.

[TrickyPlayer]

A couple small ideas:

• Being able to click units to toggle them on and off. (This would avert the "a sniper causes an overwhelming cascade of creeper by popping way too many eggs" frustrations.)
• Having some sort of visibility over where towers will be placed. (This would avert the archaeological frustrations.) One option would be some sort of "ghost" of the units that lingers on the ground, even under creeper - but subtle enough to not be visually overwhelming. (I'd also do it only for defensive towers, the soylent towers and pylons are not really important.)

They're relatively small changes in code, but they are changes in code. I unfortunately don't have any better ideas that don't involve some modding.

Both of those are changed in the autobuild code which probably involve making a new script, I don't know how to access big amounts of units at a time yet so I'm not even bothering. First one might be doable so I might take a look at that if it hasn't been done yet when I make my next cursor autobuild map, which might take a while to happen in the first place.

[lordcat]

Niflthaena:  Read the starting message; your 'helpful teammate' is defensive only, and only operating at 78% efficiency at that.  It's trying it's best, but you need to work harder to compensate for its flaws.  Rather than increasing the difficulty with more emitters/launchers/creep/etc, I'm increasing the difficulty by making your 'helpful teammate' less effective.

ApocalypticSquirrel:  Yes I did play it, repeatedly.  If you'll read the starting message, you'll see some story/explanation for why the map is how it is.  The Offensive Mode for the Automated Systems is off, and the Defensive Mode is only operating at 78%.  It's intentionally inefficient to add challenge to the game.  Yes there are flaws in where the nullifiers and snipers are placed, and that is intentional.  I carefully placed the snipers to balance between too much of a wave and not enough wave.  This is all to create challenge; the automated system won't win on it's own and you have to fight to compensate for the mistakes it makes.  With something like the eggs, the longer the battle goes, the harder it gets, but it shouldn't become impossible.

Niflthaena:  Do you know how to make those specific changes? or have example maps I can look at? I can include them in future maps that I build.  All of the scripts that I'm using I've pulled from other maps and then adjusted slightly to work for me; I can make some minor adjustments but I'm not familiar enough to make anything significant like those.

The waves caused by snipers are intentional in this map, but that would be a good option for future maps (I was intentional where I placed them to cause some waves but not too much).  You do have visibility into where every unit is placed at the very beginning of the game before you un-pause it, so you can study that and/or take a screen shot.  The rebuild script somehow knows where all of the items are so the data is there, but I don't know how to display a ghost image there.  I could maybe put some eco down in the spots where the nullifiers are or something (not sure if there's another way to paint the ground?)

[Karsten75]

Further discussion on Discord