Custom Map #5343: CWDig Claustrophobia. By: cornucanis

[Grabz]

The problem some people have is that this mindset effectively makes it look like all difficult maps are bad because they're hard. By definition, a rating should be an indication of the quality of a map, not difficulty. But, there's definitely an argument to be made that rating makes more sense to be taken as player enjoyment instead, and difficult maps being rated lower based on the fact that less people could beat them is just an obvious side effect.

Personally, I believe that the game should not let you rate maps unless you've beaten them, so people who can't beat too difficult maps can't tank their rating because they're not good enough to beat the map. After all, the only way you've seen the map from start to finish is if you've finished it. Rating a map you didn't finish is like making a review of a game you didn't finish IMO, it's not fair to the map.

[chwooly]

The problem some people have is that this mindset effectively makes it look like all difficult maps are bad because they're hard. By definition, a rating should be an indication of the quality of a map, not difficulty. But, there's definitely an argument to be made that rating makes more sense to be taken as player enjoyment instead, and difficult maps being rated lower based on the fact that less people could beat them is just an obvious side effect.

Personally, I believe that the game should not let you rate maps unless you've beaten them, so people who can't beat too difficult maps can't tank their rating because they're not good enough to beat the map. After all, the only way you've seen the map from start to finish is if you've finished it. Rating a map you didn't finish is like making a review of a game you didn't finish IMO, it's not fair to the map.

I do understand that thought but for me it doesn't make sense, That is like saying you can't know if you like a movie, a book or a meal until you finish it. I have started books and after a few pages decided I didn't like it or watched a movie and not finished it or taken a bite of a burger and not finished it, I have a number of games in my steam account that I never play that I have not finished because I don't like them, I rate them low and steam steers me away from games that are similar.  Does that make my opinion invalid? I did't like them for a number of reasons, why invest time in something I am not getting anything out of?

JMHO

Cheers

[cornucanis]

I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting.

I never said or even implied that the low score was due to people rage quitting. The comment that said this was by a different person, builder17. If you're going to come to the forums to insult a map designer because you didn't like their map, please at least try to get your facts accurate.

[chwooly]

I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting.

I never said or even implied that the low score was due to people rage quitting. The comment that said this was by a different person, builder17. If you're going to come to the forums to insult a map designer because you didn't like their map, please at least try to get your facts accurate.

Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.

[cornucanis]

Why is it so hard to believe that people don't enjoy micromanaging and restarting maps and the low score is a reflection of that dynamic? While I am sure a couple might have been due to "ragequiting" not all are and most people that play don't post on the boards.

If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players. 

I should point out that you're presenting a ludicrous strawman here. I never said I was unhappy with the score of the map, I actually said quite the opposite if you had actually read the posts instead of seeing the word "ragequit" uttered by someone before immediately posting your rant.

I made this map to be brutally and punishingly hard so a low rating was expected before ever posting it.. This map wasn't designed to be completed by the average player. I will make more accessible maps in the future...

I'm sorry if the map caused you frustration and you didn't enjoy it, but I fully expected low rating for that exact reason so please actually read a thread before commenting completely unjustified strawman arguments next time.

Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.

I may be unusual for this, but I do feel insulted when someone posts the following about my map based on a absolute strawman of an argument:

If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players. 

I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting. Why is it so hard to believe ...

It just comes off as condescending and insulting especially when built on a false premise.

[chwooly]

Why is it so hard to believe that people don't enjoy micromanaging and restarting maps and the low score is a reflection of that dynamic? While I am sure a couple might have been due to "ragequiting" not all are and most people that play don't post on the boards.

If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players. 

I should point out that you're presenting a ludicrous strawman here. I never said I was unhappy with the score of the map, I actually said quite the opposite if you had actually read the posts instead of seeing the word "ragequit" uttered by someone before immediately posting your rant.

I made this map to be brutally and punishingly hard so a low rating was expected before ever posting it.. This map wasn't designed to be completed by the average player. I will make more accessible maps in the future...

I'm sorry if the map caused you frustration and you didn't enjoy it, but I fully expected low rating for that exact reason so please actually read a thread before commenting completely unjustified strawman arguments next time.

Please post what I wrote that was an insult as I don't see it.

I may be unusual for this, but I do feel insulted when someone posts the following about my map based on a absolute strawman of an argument:

If you're unhappy with the score then make a map that appeals to a wider variety of players. 

I really enjoy starting a map, finding it extremely hard, then going to the forum for hints or tips and seeing the designer assuming that people gave it a low score due to rage quitting. Why is it so hard to believe ...

It just comes off as condescending and insulting especially when built on a false premise.

I read the comments quickly and didn't notice that it wasn't you specifically who wrote that. For that I apologize, However that doesn't make my statements any less invalid nor does it make it insulting, condescending or invalid.  I did have to look up strawman since I am not a debater. And while technically it is the correct use of the term, It was not my intent since as I stated I didn't realize it wasn't you're statement.

Therefore I still stand by my original statement.  I just redirect it to those that agree with the statement I am arguing against.

Cheers

I am reminding my apology because as seen in another more recent thread, even though you didn't specifically mention your belief in this thread you did in another thread and if you feel insulted that is an issue you will just have to resolve on your own.

[Hurk]

what chwooly said. i played with it, realised the strat it would take and how exact it was and decided no thanks.

i dont play creeper world for my manual dexterity. to me the maps that require constant pausing for hours are not fun. they are just... like doing an all white puzzle. at least with a puzzle, there is a picture at the end for your efforts. for maps like this, there is nothing but the challenge itself.

to me, the fun of creeper is figuring out the issue, then enjoying the lead you create for yourself. this map doesnt allow that.
im certain some people out there like that though.

[Johnny Haywire]

WOW, such a cool map!

Saw a little of the age-old "Map rating" argument: Is the rating based on how much I like a map, or is it based on the quality of a map? Yanno, it's a game so do whatever ya like I guess.

My personal take on it is that I only rate maps low if they're just plain stupid or poorly designed. My wife loves Pride and Prejudice but once they start talking I can't understand a word. Intellectually, I can concede that it's a well-done movie for what it is; I just don't like what it is. They need some zombies or something.

So for this map - if you don't like pausing then don't pause. I paused at the beginning and maybe a few times here or there but for the most part once you get a foothold on the lower right corner (which isn't super-difficult, imo), you're good to go.

*For what it's worth* - I'm not particularly fond of having to fly stuff back and forth to keep it powered. And I can see how chwooly and others would simply refuse to do that. Providing two relays would've solved that issue, yet still retained the difficulty.

My solution: I turn maps like this into a RTS game where I'm having to juggle several things back & forth. I don't like doing that, but at least it's a kind of brain exercise so it's like "fun work". I also don't watch stuff meticulously. I set up a design, then let the AC pump while I do some office work, then come back to it and release the AC then repeat.

What's really cool about this map is its epic nature yet small size. That's very rare. Maps like this don't tempt me to buy a new computer - they're nice & smooth even at max speed. I like that this series teaches some new techniques, like how to build an AC pump using only terps. I'd actually never thought to do that.

Sorry for the long review for such a short map, but I thought this map was worthy. Thanks for the map!  ;D ;D

[cornucanis]

(Pretend I left the stuff you said here so I don't have to clutter up the page reposting it all)

Thanks for the kind words! I knew when I made this map it would cause frustration to most people who encountered it, but I hoped it would at least create enjoyment for a few other people who are masochistic enough to be into these sort of maps. I found out just how frustrating yet amazing a small and well-crafted map can be by playing ThirdParty's classic micro puzzle maps, so my map style was definitely heavily influenced by those.

I actually learned a few new tactics myself while making this map. I didn't even know some of the necessary moves would be possible until I forced myself to figure out a strategy. I would basically just add a new area, make it hard enough that I couldn't figure out an immediately obvious solution, then flail around until something somehow gains ground and rebalance things accordingly 8)

Fair point about flying units out of ammo supply reach. It's a mechanic I usually try not to overuse. I think the only other map I made where you had to do it was the map before this one, where you had to make a terp zone that was temporarily out of range. It definitely starts to get tedious if you have to do it for an extended time, though.

Glad to hear someone else had an enjoyable time overall with the map! When I have time to make CW3 maps again I just might consider having another go at making a tricky map  ;)

[Johnny Haywire]

When I have time to make CW3 maps again I just might consider having another go at making a tricky map

Ha! Feel free to, m8. I always enjoy a good challenge. I thought the spores added a nice touch of difficulty to this map.

And while I'm thinking of it... just in case anyone has a difficult time with the spores (and sorry if this is obvious):

Spoiler

Spores don't target beams. So you can build multiple beams over time with your CN and then have the powered up beams ready to take down spores that launch after you build a reactor or two. Just in case ya didn't realize that.  ;)

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