[Suggestion] Particulate vs. Creeper gamemode

[Kittles]

I'd be interested in seeing a mode that allows us to play as the Particulate vs the Creeper (like how in CW3 you could play as the creeper. If not a dedicated mode, then simply having the option to make a scenario like this in the map editor.

[yum-forum]

W 8) W! Interesting, but I think not possible.

[GoodMorning]

I'm not sure how you think the Creeper could attack, but the thought is interesting. Before we build new game modes, let's finish what we started.

[Karsten75]

I'd be interested in seeing a mode that allows us to play as the Particulate vs the Creeper (like how in CW3 you could play as the creeper. If not a dedicated mode, then simply having the option to make a scenario like this in the map editor.

See my reply here: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=21763.msg149585#msg149585

And since title indicates "Vs creeper", I'd also note that there are no mechanism for fluid dynamic simulation built in the PF engine. Re-creating that at a user-level may be prohibitively expensive in terms of CPU lag.

[Relli]

Something tells me this would be more easily accomplished on CW3 than PF. Plus, if you think about it, how would the two interact? Particulate and Doppels do their best work in space, while Creeper is land-bound (for the most part). There's not a lot that would readily allow the two to fight each other, and if you code in more, you run the risk of traveling far enough away from the initial concept that it no longer counts as it.

[PhailRaptor]

Something tells me this would be more easily accomplished on CW3 than PF. Plus, if you think about it, how would the two interact? Particulate and Doppels do their best work in space, while Creeper is land-bound (for the most part). There's not a lot that would readily allow the two to fight each other, and if you code in more, you run the risk of traveling far enough away from the initial concept that it no longer counts as it.

I do generally agree with this from a gameplay standpoint.  However...

Spoiler

...one of the critical points of the story missions is that the Particulate was originally created in order to prevent the Loki from accomplishing the goal for which the Creeper was designed.  Creeper was designed to reduce the complexity of the universe at a high rate in order to reveal the Arc, giving the Loki control over all of time and space.  The Particulate was created to counteract that effect, by constantly creating, recreating, and re-recreating itself into ever more complex forms in order to promote a massive increase in complexity.

It stands to reason, then, that the plan of the Seloi was to evacuate worlds in the path of the Creeper's expansion and deploy massive quantities of Particulate.  This would have greatly slowed the advance of the Creeper, if not potentially stalled it out entirely as the Particulate became ever more complex as the Creeper dissolved it back down.  This eventuality would have rendered the Loki's weapon utterly useless and ensured the protection of Humanity.

It stands to reason, then, that Particulate worlds would be incredibly hostile to the Creeper.  And we know this is the case with the story mission occurring at the "origin world".  Somehow or other, the Creeper would have had to overcome the defenses of a Particulate world.  It would require breaching layers and layers of Struct to plant Emitters, which would have to survive on Mired land, then somehow strengthen the output of the Emitters to deal with the constant bombardment by the Particulate itself, as well as effectively passes from Doppels and actual ships with actual weapons.  Should the Creeper actually attain this foothold of survival, it would then have to, presumably, use a literal cloud of Spores in order to get through the swarms of Particulate around the planet in order to take out the Emitters, Doppel Spawners, and Shipyards.  Then repeat this long horrible drawn out process again on every world it were to encounter.  Depending on the vehicle by which the Creeper moves between worlds, it may even have been impossible for it to breach space held by Particulate in the first place with simple deep space stations in areas with no landmass for the Creeper to land on.

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I would actually be quite intrigued to see how the 2 more-or-less mindless entities interact.

[Tarmandan]

Spoiler

Well, the particulate probably fought against the creeper at some point. If you remember, in CW 3 only two civilasitions are named, the Seloi (aka "The Precursors") and the Ticon Empire (Which I strongly believed to be founded at the end of the campaign till I saw the ending). I had always wondered, why the Ticons held on the longest while the Seloi clearly were more advanced. My guess is that Ticon corporation manages to overthrow GalCorp and somehow manages to utilize the Particulate to an extent, fighting a long, long war. The Seloi did not resist till the end, if they did they probably would have lasted the longest.

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[GoodMorning]

Spoiler

For the Ticon, one word: Digitalis.

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[Tarmandan]

Spoiler

For the Ticon, one word: Digitalis.

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Spoiler

Struc*

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[GoodMorning]

Not quite what I meant:

Spoiler

The Ticon made Digi, which turned the Creeper against itself. The Seloi were intending to get the Arc and use "time-travel shenanigans".

A question posed by Virgil some time ago: Not "why didn't CW3 have three epilogues" but "why is there only one?"

Was there something critical about that meeting? Particulate, perchance?

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[PhailRaptor]

Spoiler

The Seloi were intending to get the Arc and use "time-travel shenanigans".

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I don't believe that intention was ever given on the part of the Seloi.  Weren't they simply trying to stop the Loki, and were the first Human civilization to uncover their plan?

[GoodMorning]

I had interpreted:

Spoiler

The Particulate was an accelerated device for the same purpose as the Creeper: Record complexity to reveal the Arc. But the Seloi discontinued their project for unknown reasons.

I'm fairly sure that this is stated, but not entirely.

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[PhailRaptor]

I had interpreted:

Spoiler

The Particulate was an accelerated device for the same purpose as the Creeper: Record complexity to reveal the Arc. But the Seloi discontinued their project for unknown reasons.

I'm fairly sure that this is stated, but not entirely.

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Spoiler

It was given that they were researching the principles behind the concept of the Arc from the data archives discovered in CW3.  It was also given that they suddenly stopped their research in both CW3 and now in PF:E, presumably coinciding with their message sent to the Loki.  But I don't recall in either game any intention assigned to the Seloi of actually trying to uncover the Arc for themselves, only that they were studying it and came to the realization that the Loki were trying to reveal it and use it to control all of time and space.

I'm also curious where everyone is getting this idea that the Particulate were designed to record information in the same way as the Creeper.  The only thing even remotely like that is the cutscene about the report from analyzing the intact and decoded Seloi archive in PF:E, which described the Particulate as a means of countering the Creeper.  Did I just miss it somewhere?

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[GoodMorning]

I just looked at the thread without expanding the spoiler tags. Strange things.

Perhaps we should create a transcript once and for all.

[Relli]

PhailRaptor, to answer your question, here are a couple lines straight out of the Codex:

Spoiler

"The Seloi, perhaps out of urgency, perhaps desperation, dedicated their entire galactic civilization to uncovering the Arc before the Loki."

"They vacated these worlds and created an automaton whose purpose was to create patterns and to record vast amounts of information. Much as the Creeper, this "particulate" would collect information from complex structures."

So those two lines are where everyone is getting this idea. Incidentally, I don't see any specific mention of the Particulate being designed to fight or stop the Creeper. I can see where it could be interpreted, but it never seems to outright say it.
For the record, I really like the idea that the Particulate makes itself more complex to counter the Creeper making things simpler. And it's entirely possible this was part of it. I just don't see any proof of that outside of this one line:
"The particulate would create its own structure through ever evolving patterns. It was itself a kind of life form, but with only one purpose. It would live and die in an accelerated cycle, so that others might not."
So it seems like it could well be both at once. At the very least, I plan to assume it is until I learn otherwise.

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