Custom Map #10956: Childish attempt at PAC 2. By: Martin Gronsdal

[Martin Gronsdal]

How come?

[goodyosef]

I have no idea what to think of this map.
I was all set to give it a 9/10, maybe higher, and then I discovered this maps little... idiosyncrasy. And had to do the map all over again, once I figured out from Martin's spoiler what the heck I was supposed to do. I'd tried to solve it myself, and even came up with the notion that maybe the whole map had to be flooded in anticreeper and wasted half an hour making that happen, only to discover I was wrong. And that peeved me. I'm happy to have a weird win-con need, in fact I think it's brilliant, but I could wish for a clue somewhere in the map to tip me off that shenanigans are going down, and what they might be. Even if it's subtle, and I only see the connection in retrospect. This felt more like a Shyamalan twist, where it's not actually necessary and no amount of clues were going to tell you it was coming.
   I also hated the fact that we don't find out we're wrong until it's too late to fix it. At least give us a chance to fix it without needing a save file or to replay the whole level!
   So, I loved 95% of this map experience, and the remaining 5% would have been *awesome* if I'd had any idea it was coming? I'm not necessarily hating on the idea, but some kind of "aha" moment based on clues and hints is more satisfying, IMHO...

[Martin Gronsdal]

Thanks for playing

[goodyosef]

Thanks for playing

Thanks for a cool map, man! I really liked how much strategy I had to use to work my way through the map. Lots of pausing and thinking for a second about my next move. So many PAC maps basically solve themselves after a few minutes, but this one kept me scheming right to the end. It's clever and interesting, and if we just had a little warning about your puzzle, it'd be an easy 9/10 or 10/10, which are ratings I almost never give!

Realized my first review might have come off a little focused on the negative, and wanted to be sure I offered praise for the awesomeness, not just complaints for the one Really Weird Part.

[Martin Gronsdal]

Thank you

[S-nut]

Same here: It's not cleverness when you can make a good puzzle map only with wired hidden rules, with now way to decue it with in the rules.

Changing rules and not giving hints about, its just simple minded.
 

[Martin Gronsdal]

May I suggest less unfriendly choice of words?

[S-nut]

May I suggest you bring an argument, if you can't find truth in it?! Its not unfriendly, ecept your subconscious agrees and your conscious get angry about.

[Karsten75]

I would like to remind all participants in this thread  of the following post that is pined at the top of this board.
https://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=15512.0

For brevity's sake, here is the text of it. The highlighting I added

- Maps are made by the full spectrum of humanity.  From very young, to uh hmm very 'old'. From native English speakers to can't speak a word of English.  From experienced game players to casual and new as they come.

- Not every question requires a written answer.  No response is sometimes the best answer.

- Shower encouragement and praise on the things you like, ignore what you dislike.

- Constructive criticism is perfectly fine.

- Meta comments (comments on other people's comments) can often spiral away from map discussions.  Be cautious of topic drift.

- The above guidelines are not hard and fast rules, they are just guidelines designed to create a bias towards helping map makers make better maps.

[CrusaderDeleters]

I sometimes like to play simple PAC maps just to be able to mindlessly play a game. This one wasn't bad, but it did have two major flaws. I'll spoiler them since they "give away" the solution, which I feel is a flaw in itself.

Spoiler

Having to let the runner nest get destroyed is a neat idea. The problem is that it's practically impossible to realize that you do need to let it get destroyed. Firstly, the map starts with all of the creeper emitters already pouring out and destroying anything what most will believe is the "starter zone". This makes it very easy to let the whole island fill up, and that there being no turrets to destroy the creeper makes it almost impossible to recover. To really feel like I'm not sitting around for an hour doing nothing, I had to frame-step through the first dozen frames to try to soak up as much creeper I could into digitalis so the puddle that exists at the start of the map didn't last for a while. Here, I would suggest even a mortar or a sprayer to clear up the creeper flood on the island. Secondly, the runner nest being isolated and on its own makes it very easy to just remove the digitalis on the nest to stop the runners from spawning, essentially turning it off, but not validating the win condition. As others have said, this is quite an obscure win condition, and there being some kind of "tell" would help. You might imagine it producing a lot of anti-creeper might be enough, however the runners move so quickly that it still does the other function it's good at: Locking units out of resupply/connections. Making it slow might have made it better. Maybe adding more snipers to really make the idea sink in that you shouldn't be trying to use the runners. After that, it boils back down to problem 1.

[close]

I did enjoy it enough to play it a second time though, but it was more begrudging than from interest at that point. Hope to see more maps!

[Johnny Haywire]

Not sure if anyone looks at these forums anymore but I'm typically a big fan of Martin's maps, and I enjoyed this one too. Yes, the runner's nest thing is annoying but Martin's not a story-teller - he's an engineer who designs maps that are tricky.

If a story-teller were designing the same map, they'd begin by perhaps saying something like "One of our own has betrayed us and has decided to fight against us. But because of our Creeper Code, we can't kill a fellow Creeper so we will have to somehow trick Abraxis into taking out our clandestine enemy."

Adding such a story line would probably make the map more interesting for most people and would give a clue at the same time. Not that anyone has to care what other people like. Social acumen is neither a necessary vehicle for success nor a barometer of achievement. Whether you like Elon Musk or not, he's going to do things his way and generally be brilliant in the technical sense.

So if you get stuck on one of these maps, grab a fellow high-functioning autistic friend and they'll probably be able to help. Great minds think alike! =)

Cheers, and thanks for the map!!

[Martin Gronsdal]

many thanks!

[toolforger]

May I suggest less unfriendly choice of words?

Well, the map was unfriendly, so there's that.