Is there a topic that talks about the wall decay time? I can't find it if it does exist.
It seems like the depth of the creeper against a wall determines the decay rate of the wall? Also on how many sides of the wall is exposed to creeper? I'm wondering if this calculation is perhaps similar to the one used to determine the rate that a weapon deteriorates when immersed in creeper? Although it does seem that rate is not the same for a blaster and a SAM, for instance.
Quote from: Karsten75 on March 18, 2010, 11:48:56 AM
It seems like the depth of the creeper against a wall determines the decay rate of the wall? Also on how many sides of the wall is exposed to creeper? I'm wondering if this calculation is perhaps similar to the one used to determine the rate that a weapon deteriorates when immersed in creeper?
Yes, that's what I figured. Walls just have a lot more health, with it's colour acting as health bar.
Quote from: Karsten75 on March 18, 2010, 11:48:56 AM
Although it does seem that rate is not the same for a blaster and a SAM, for instance.
I guess the damage rate is the same; a SAM only has less health.
IIRC the creeper depth does not affect wall decay. What does matter is how many side the wall is surrounded by. If you create a box made out of walls and put an emitter right in the middle of the boxyou will notice that the walls near the corners don't decay as fast. This is because they don't have as many sides being touched by the Creeper. Note that diagonals count as sides (so a wall has 8 directions it has to worry about).
Ah! So a single wall element surrounded by very thin creeper will decay in 3/8 of the time it takes a wall with 5 level thick creeper on one side. Interesting....
Q:How long does it take if the wall is only touched on one side by creeper?
In the case of one side (3 directions for that wall element) it takes 2:16.
I've created a test map for this and noticed something rather peculiar. Have a look at the right emitter; it has exactly the same values as the one on the left (and it is not under or on top of a wall). The walls decay much slower and the walls in the corners decay at the same speed as the ones in the middle. Does a square containing an emitter have a different effect than a square without an emitter, but with Creeper?
Quote from: UpperKEES on March 19, 2010, 01:44:33 PM
In the case of one side (3 directions for that wall element) it takes 2:16.
I've created a test map for this and noticed something rather peculiar. Have a look at the right emitter; it has exactly the same values as the one on the left (and it is not under or on top of a wall). The walls decay much slower and the walls in the corners decay at the same speed as the ones in the middle. Does a square containing an emitter have a different effect than a square without an emitter, but with Creeper?
In your right most box, each wall segment is adjacent to only a single creeper covered cell (the single cell in the middle). In the left box, the wall segments are adjacent to more creeper cells. In particular, the ones in the middle are adjacent to 3 (the one immediately next to them, and the two diagonal). The ones in the very corner are adjacent to only 1 (the one diagonal). The ones next to the corners are adjacent to 2 (the one next to them and a single diagonal one). Here is a picture of your map at around 1:50 and you can see the decay rates have differed in accordance to the number of adjacent creeper cells.
Ow man, that was pretty stupid of me! It indeed does exactly what you explained! Thanks for your patience.... :)
While trying something 'new' I just discovered that a wall with an emitter on top (or underneath) does not decay at all, even when surrounded with creeper at all 8 sides. Is this a bug?
This is a result of the update that prevented walls on high ground from decaying until the creeper around them touched the bottom of it. If you use a low-intensity emitter in the wall, but surround it with high-intensity emitters, it will still decay. A similar effect can be found if a wall gets hit by a spore or otherwise somehow contains creeper.
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 17, 2010, 04:25:57 PM
This is a result of the update that prevented walls on high ground from decaying until the creeper around them touched the bottom of it.
I'm talking about a completely flat terrain, so the bottom of the wall is touched by thin creeper. Does this 'update' still apply? If so, I would say it's not implemented correctly.
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 17, 2010, 04:25:57 PM
If you use a low-intensity emitter in the wall, but surround it with high-intensity emitters, it will still decay.
Unfortunately I planned to do the exact opposite: a high(er) intensity emitter 'capped' by the wall element. I was already looking forward to some very nice effects. :(
thanks for the info
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 05:34:13 PM
I'm talking about a completely flat terrain, so the bottom of the wall is touched by thin creeper. Does this 'update' still apply? If so, I would say it's not implemented correctly.
I know you are, but for some reason, since that update, a wall on elevation 1 with 4 layers of creeper in it behaves in a similar way to a wall on elevation 5, with a few small differences that you will find yourself if you experiment a little.
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 05:34:13 PM
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 17, 2010, 04:25:57 PM
If you use a low-intensity emitter in the wall, but surround it with high-intensity emitters, it will still decay.
Unfortunately I planned to do the exact opposite: a high(er) intensity emitter 'capped' by the wall element. I was already looking forward to some very nice effects. :(
Try making a ring of normal walls around the emitter and cover the inside of said ring with totems. Since totem spaces do not count toward wall damage (or so I hear...), you can achieve a similar effect, but it takes longer to dissolve and requires more space, in addition to the fact that it counts as a totem.
EDIT: You may also be able to do this with another type of item, I'm testing now...EDIT2: It seems as if this was fixed? (See attached map) How then can
this (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=1301.0) be explained? Does it only occur in maps made by an older version of the map editor?
EDIT3: On resaving the linked map with editor version 0380, the walls do decay symmetrically. It seems that that bug only occurred in old versions.
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 18, 2010, 11:39:11 AM
I know you are, but for some reason, since that update, a wall on elevation 1 with 4 layers of creeper in it behaves in a similar way to a wall on elevation 5, with a few small differences that you will find yourself if you experiment a little.
Yep, you are right: the amount of creeper needed to dissolve a wall element is equal to the creeper level on top of that wall. I just don't understand why it is like this. Hopefully Virgil can say something about it....
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 18, 2010, 11:39:11 AM
Try making a ring of normal walls around the emitter and cover the inside of said ring with totems. Since totem spaces do not count toward wall damage (or so I hear...), you can achieve a similar effect, but it takes longer to dissolve and requires more space, in addition to the fact that it counts as a totem.
EDIT: You may also be able to do this with another type of item, I'm testing now...
EDIT2: It seems as if this was fixed? (See attached map) How then can this (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=1301.0) be explained? Does it only occur in maps made by an older version of the map editor?
EDIT3: On resaving the linked map with editor version 0380, the walls do decay symmetrically. It seems that that bug only occurred in old versions.
This would mean that different code is executed by the game when a map has been saved with an older version of the map editor. I know this version number is stored with every map, so this could be possible. I'm not sure however why this particular piece of code is implemented differently, because you would expect the creeper flow to be similar for old and new maps.
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 04:08:02 PM
While trying something 'new' I just discovered that a wall with an emitter on top (or underneath) does not decay at all, even when surrounded with creeper at all 8 sides. Is this a bug?
8 sides ?
An dice has 6 sides , and this games has 5 lvls of terrain ,
how can the creepers attack 8 sides ?
And does terrain inflickt with the walls as long the creepers sourround the wall ?
( Unless you ment 6 sides =P )
Quote from: SPIFFEN on July 19, 2010, 09:52:28 AM
8 sides ?
An dice has 6 sides , and this games has 5 lvls of terrain ,
how can the creepers attack 8 sides ?
Corner cells containing creeper also count, making it a maximum of 8 to surround a single wall element.
When you look at it that way, a dice (in 3D) can be surrounded from 26 sides.
Quote from: SPIFFEN on July 19, 2010, 09:52:28 AM
And does terrain inflickt with the walls as long the creepers sourround the wall ?
Yes, it does. When a wall is located on elevation level 5, it might seem the creeper is toughing the wall when the surrounding elevation level is 1. The wall won't start decaying however until the creeper level has risen to elevation level 5 (and the creeper is really toughing the wall).
Quote from: SPIFFEN on July 19, 2010, 09:52:28 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 17, 2010, 04:08:02 PM
While trying something 'new' I just discovered that a wall with an emitter on top (or underneath) does not decay at all, even when surrounded with creeper at all 8 sides. Is this a bug?
8 sides ?
An dice has 6 sides , and this games has 5 lvls of terrain ,
how can the creepers attack 8 sides ?
And does terrain inflickt with the walls as long the creepers sourround the wall ?
( Unless you ment 6 sides =P )
8 sides = 4 corners and 4 flat edges. The creeper contact with any/either of these count as one contact point for decay.
An 3d dice has 14 sides if you count the spike of the corner ,
or 30 if each spike has 3 spots =P
( If i are thinking right )
Anyway , this game is way to advanced for me to be best player ever =P
Quote from: SPIFFEN on July 19, 2010, 10:28:01 AM
An 3d dice has 14 sides if you count the spike of the corner ,
or 30 if each spike has 3 spots =P
( If i are thinking right )
Nope, because now you forget the 12 cubes just touching one of the edges, but not the sides. Think about it like this: when you need 8 squares to surround a square; how many cubes would you need to surround one cube? The answer is 3 layers of each 9 cubes, minus the center cube that you are surrounding (like Rubic's cube).
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 19, 2010, 09:43:51 AM
This would mean that different code is executed by the game when a map has been saved with an older version of the map editor. I know this version number is stored with every map, so this could be possible. I'm not sure however why this particular piece of code is implemented differently, because you would expect the creeper flow to be similar for old and new maps.
Sounds strange doesn't it.... :)
There was a bug in the early releases of the game that made walls decay at different rates depends on the side they were touched on. I fixed this bug in subsequent releases. However, this was after some maps were already released. I decided to keep the "bug" in the behavior for maps made with older map editors. If I had not done this, some old maps would have been broken. Sometimes, map authors would rely on the decay of walls at a fixed time. If I fixed the bug, I would alter this behavior and therefore alter their maps. Most importantly, this was true for the story maps. The last thing I wanted to do was alter their behavior.
So, I kept the old wall decay code in place for the original maps and maps made with an old map editor. New maps would get the corrected wall decay behavior.
Ah, that explains the difference between various versions. Thanks.
But what about the wall elements with an emitter on top (or underneath)? That was the question I actually liked to see answered....
Edit: Virgil confirmed that wall elements stacked with an emitter indeed work as described above.
Quote from: virgilw on July 19, 2010, 02:17:06 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 19, 2010, 09:43:51 AM
This would mean that different code is executed by the game when a map has been saved with an older version of the map editor. I know this version number is stored with every map, so this could be possible. I'm not sure however why this particular piece of code is implemented differently, because you would expect the creeper flow to be similar for old and new maps.
Sounds strange doesn't it.... :)
There was a bug in the early releases of the game that made walls decay at different rates depends on the side they were touched on. I fixed this bug in subsequent releases. However, this was after some maps were already released. I decided to keep the "bug" in the behavior for maps made with older map editors. If I had not done this, some old maps would have been broken. Sometimes, map authors would rely on the decay of walls at a fixed time. If I fixed the bug, I would alter this behavior and therefore alter their maps. Most importantly, this was true for the story maps. The last thing I wanted to do was alter their behavior.
So, I kept the old wall decay code in place for the original maps and maps made with an old map editor. New maps would get the corrected wall decay behavior.
This implies that the specific wall behavior is programmed into the map file? Or do map files have a code that signifies whether they are new or old?
I only ask because I want a way to dynamically set the decay rate for a wall. :P
The version number of the map editor is stored with the map file.
You won't be able to set the decay rate for a wall, because this is hard coded into the game and determined by the number of surrounding cells containing creeper.
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 18, 2010, 11:39:11 AM
a wall on elevation 1 with 4 layers of creeper in it behaves in a similar way to a wall on elevation 5, with a few small differences that you will find yourself if you experiment a little.
I have created a map using these effects, thus introducing two 'new' types of emitters. Check it out
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=4127.0).
For more info about wall decay times see
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg28676#msg28676).
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 21, 2010, 03:33:25 AM
You won't be able to set the decay rate for a wall, because this is hard coded into the game and determined by the number of surrounding cells containing creeper.
It turns out you can! See
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5177.0).