Knuckle Cracker

This topic is for discussion of map: Hard Art 3: Color Planes (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2739)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=2739) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2739)

Author: UpperKEES (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=UpperKEES)

Desc:
This map contains 2 new types of emitters. The first kind will only start when the creeper has reached a certain level and the other type can be prevented from starting by keeping it save for a couple of minutes. How many emitters will be active? It's all up to you! Based on a painting by Mondriaan.

Title:	Hard Art 3: Color Planes
Difficulty:	Hard
Creeper type:	Land only
Remarks:	This map contains 2 new types of emitters. The first kind will only start when the creeper has reached a certain level and the other type can be prevented from starting by keeping it save for a couple of minutes. How many emitters will be active? It's all up to you! Based on a painting by Piet Mondriaan.
Description:	Piet Mondriaan is well known for his art experiments and is considered to be the pioneer of modern art. Most of his works consist of straight lines and only use black, white, grey and the 3 primary colors. This map is also an experiment, because it contains 2 'new' types of emitters that you can control yourself! (See below for more info.) Every plane with the same color has its own characteristics: Level 1, WHITE: contains upgrades or techs. Level 2, GREY: contains emitters capped by a wall element. These walls will only dissolve when the creeper level above that plane is 2 elevation layers thick, so better prevent that! When the creeper levels go down again (below 2), the wall will stop dissolving, even when the creeper still touches it. Once the wall element has dissolved completely the emitter (intensity 2, interval 0.1 sec) will start. Level 3, YELLOW: these planes are the same elevation level as the dark grey borders, so they are actually a little larger than it seems. Level 4, RED: these planes also contain emitters capped by a wall element (except for the one with Odin City). The walls will start to dissolve immediately when the creeper touches them, but the emitters (intensity 8, interval 2 sec) will only start after 8 minutes. If you manage to keep the wall intact during the first 8 minutes, you are safe and the wall won't dissolve any further, thus capping the emitter for the rest of your game! Level 5, BLUE: these planes contain normal, rather weak emitters (intensity 1, interval 0.5 sec). These are the only emitters that will emit creeper from the start of the game. So it's up to you how many emitters you will be fighting! You'll notice that mortars and capped emitters don't go very well together, just like with 'normal' emitters, so pick their location carefully. Please let me know what you think of this concept. ARTIST: Piet Mondriaan TITLE: Composition with Color Planes and Gray Lines 1 MATERIAL: Oil on canvas YEAR: 1918 DIMENSIONS: 60.5 x 49 cm
Download page:	Hard Art 3: Color Planes (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2739)
Full size screen shot:	(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=993;image)
Based on:	(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=995;image)
More art:	See here for more maps about art (and jobs) ;) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.0)

being a VERY slow player, i have quite a disadvantage. :(

Did you make the creeper activeted emitters by placing them ontop of a wall piece?

Quote from: ontheworld on July 30, 2010, 05:15:39 AM
being a VERY slow player, i have quite a disadvantage. :(

It took me a while to beat the map, and I think being slow on this map only matters to the time, not the end result.  With all the pausing I did to look at how it was going I spent about 2 hours playing this map, and it was worth it in the end.

An "Interesting" concept, and very annoying at times too.  But I did notice that a couple of the walls did not appear to get destroyed, no matter how long I waited.  (Yes, I was trying to make it difficult for myself)

Not sure how you did it, but it does add another avenue people can take when making maps, although I do not hope that there are too many this hard. lol

Quote from: ontheworld on July 30, 2010, 05:15:39 AM
being a VERY slow player, i have quite a disadvantage. :(

I don't think the disadvantage of being slow will be bigger compared to other maps, just different. Pausing the game will be even more important for you. And don't forget: the emitters on the red planes only have to be 'saved' during the first 8 minutes! :)

Quote from: Echo51 on July 30, 2010, 05:18:51 AM
Did you make the creeper activeted emitters by placing them ontop of a wall piece?

Yes, see this post (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=907.0) for more details about the mechanics.

Quote from: peter on July 30, 2010, 05:23:12 AM
It took me a while to beat the map, and I think being slow on this map only matters to the time, not the end result.  With all the pausing I did to look at how it was going I spent about 2 hours playing this map, and it was worth it in the end.

True. You'll be able to beat it anyway, just like playing a 'normal' map in a slow way. The only difference might be the approach you use. I often spend the first minutes only building up energy (and sometimes some minimal defences), but in this case it can pay off to concentrate on saving a few of the emitters causing danger.

Quote from: peter on July 30, 2010, 05:27:33 AM
An "Interesting" concept, and very annoying at times too.  But I did notice that a couple of the walls did not appear to get destroyed, no matter how long I waited.  (Yes, I was trying to make it difficult for myself)

This is correct and intended behaviour. The walls on the red planes won't decay any further (as the intro text states) after 8 minutes if you were able to keep them intact. The walls on the grey planes will only decay when the creeper rises 2 levels higher above that elevation (so when the creeper reaches level 4, because the grey planes are elevation level 2).

Quote from: peter on July 30, 2010, 05:27:33 AM
Not sure how you did it, but it does add another avenue people can take when making maps, although I do not hope that there are too many this hard. lol

I noticed months ago that emitters on (or underneath) walls don't seem to emit creeper. In fact these emitters do emit, but the creeper doesn't spread. Only recently I discovered the odd behaviour of the wall decay when combined with an emitter (see the link provided in reply to Echo51). Unfortunately I wasn't able to use it exactly as I originally intended, so I came up with these 2 types.

I don't think this will be used in many other maps, but I liked to do something else for a change, especially because Mondriaan also liked to experiment. The wall elements can be hard to see (although you'll notice a little squared box around the emitter when you pay attention and you can even see its color change during the decay). This is why I applied them on the color planes, so the player can distinguish between the various types of emitters more easily.

Quote from: UpperKEES on July 30, 2010, 07:50:12 AM
I don't think the disadvantage of being slow will be bigger compared to other maps, just different. Pausing the game will be even more important for you. And don't forget: the emitters on the red planes only have to be 'saved' during the first 8 minutes! :)

Quote from: Echo51 on July 30, 2010, 05:18:51 AM
Did you make the creeper activeted emitters by placing them ontop of a wall piece?

Yes, see this post (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=907.0) for more details about the mechanics.

Quote from: peter on July 30, 2010, 05:27:33 AM
An "Interesting" concept, and very annoying at times too.  But I did notice that a couple of the walls did not appear to get destroyed, no matter how long I waited.  (Yes, I was trying to make it difficult for myself)

This is correct and intended behaviour. The walls on the red planes won't decay any further (as the intro text states) after 8 minutes if you were able to keep them intact. The walls on the grey planes will only decay when the creeper rises 2 levels higher above that elevation (so when the creeper reaches level 4, because the grey planes are elevation level 2).

Quote from: peter on July 30, 2010, 05:27:33 AM
Not sure how you did it, but it does add another avenue people can take when making maps, although I do not hope that there are too many this hard. lol

I noticed months ago that emitters on (or underneath) walls don't seem to emit creeper. In fact these emitters do emit, but the creeper doesn't spread. Only recently I discovered the odd behaviour of the wall decay when combined with an emitter (see the link provided in reply to Echo51). Unfortunately I wasn't able to use it exactly as I originally intended, so I came up with these 2 types.

I don't think this will be used in many other maps, but I liked to do something else for a change, especially because Mondriaan also liked to experiment. The wall elements can be hard to see (although you'll notice a little squared box around the emitter when you pay attention and you can even see its color change during the decay). This is why I applied them on the color planes, so the player can distinguish between the various types of emitters more easily.

This is very interesting. I will have to test this my self. New types of Creeper, Muhhahaha :P. My only question, as I do not think you explained it yet, is how did you make the walls that will stop decaying after 8 minutes?

The emitters in those walls have a high intensity. Thus, at the 8-minute mark, there would need to be creeper up to what would be elevation level 12 to get them to decay. This will never happen in this map, therefore if you can protect them until then, they will never go off again. This is due to the fact that a wall does not decay until the creeper around it reaches the total elevation of the creeper inside the wall and the wall's elevation.

Quote from: Fisherck on July 30, 2010, 09:32:01 AM
This is very interesting. I will have to test this my self. New types of Creeper, Muhhahaha :P. My only question, as I do not think you explained it yet, is how did you make the walls that will stop decaying after 8 minutes?

Quote from: mthw2vc on July 30, 2010, 09:49:40 AM
The emitters in those walls have a high intensity. Thus, at the 8-minute mark, there would need to be creeper up to what would be elevation level 12 to get them to decay. This will never happen in this map, therefore if you can protect them until then, they will never go off again. This is due to the fact that a wall does not decay until the creeper around it reaches the total elevation of the creeper inside the wall and the wall's elevation.

Exactly. You can read more about these effects in this topic (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=907.0). Thanks for your posts in that thread, mthw2vc! It really helped me to create something new. :)

Quote from: UpperKEES on July 29, 2010, 11:42:15 PM
So it's up to you how many emitters you will be fighting! You'll notice that mortars and capped emitters don't go very well together, just like with 'normal' emitters, so pick their location carefully.

Please let me know what you think of this concept.

I think this is a great idea and should be used more often. I ended up letting three of the emmiters get loose, so that slowed me down a bit.

Quote from: Fisherck on July 30, 2010, 01:39:56 PM
I think this is a great idea and should be used more often. I ended up letting three of the emmiters get loose, so that slowed me down a bit.

Thanks Fisherck. :) Let me warn other map makers that it becomes a lot harder to balance the map right. I've actually made this one a bit easier than I intended, because when you played the 'normal' way, your would get overwhelmed after about 10 minutes of gameplay and I didn't want to upset the players of my maps.

Because the grey emitters can contribute in letting the red emitters go off and vice versa, it can become a cascading effect resulting in too much creeper to handle. I was also a bit afraid that people might not be able to notice the wall elements that are mostly covered by the emitter and therefore not know whether an emitter is still capped or not. (An emitter surrounded by creeper from 8 sides will decay/dissolve in about 50 seconds!)

The nice thing however is that the player can influence the behaviour of the enemy, which is a unique concept in CW. I can see many more possibilities when walls and/or emitters would behave slightly different. It's the closest I could get to implementing an IF-THEN scenario.

ok the good news, i beat it on my first try, the bad news, well look at my score (if i improve my time anytime soon then it'll go down of course but right now it's around 93 minutes).  I don't think i could do a worse job at this so that's the good part, and i think if i can cap (or semi cap) one of those blue squares by odin city, namely the one north of it, at the start, that'll help keep some of the reds from ever going off.  It looks like there are 3 emmitters that never activate, two reds (one i might have actually saved but i doubt it) and one grey that i didn't even notice never got started till i'd cleared away all the creeper around it.

Anyways it feels good to beat one of your maps again after so long and this is like 'the teacher' to me, most people can beat it, but there's usually room for improvement.

I really liked the scenario with the variable emitters! You really do have to be aggressive if you want it to be easier towards the end. I always have to be careful with the blue square north of OC if you run low on energy. Again, loved your map  :)

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 30, 2010, 05:00:02 PM
I really liked the scenario with the variable emitters! You really do have to be aggressive if you want it to be easier towards the end. I always have to be careful with the blue square north of OC if you run low on energy. Again, loved your map  :)

ugh, yeah that square and a little later (or not if things are capped, i'm not sure) the west square as well.  I was having gravedigger flashbacks when i saw the creeper inching onto my red square.

still those upperkees i really do like this map, it's one i don't feel really intemidated by, because you can hold your starting spot for a long time, it's expanding outward that can be tricky.  I dunno if i can keep the greys contained but I bet i can stop a few reds from ever starting.

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 06:30:25 PM

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 30, 2010, 05:00:02 PM
I really liked the scenario with the variable emitters! You really do have to be aggressive if you want it to be easier towards the end. I always have to be careful with the blue square north of OC if you run low on energy. Again, loved your map  :)

ugh, yeah that square and a little later (or not if things are capped, i'm not sure) the west square as well.  I was having gravedigger flashbacks when i saw the creeper inching onto my red square.

still those upperkees i really do like this map, it's one i don't feel really intemidated by, because you can hold your starting spot for a long time, it's expanding outward that can be tricky.  I dunno if i can keep the greys contained but I bet i can stop a few reds from ever starting.

That is a key (stopping the reds), I played too conservative the first time I played and had to deal with everything... not fun! The second time I got a 1 or 2 more blasters towards the start. That made a difference.

very interesting concept. managed to save all but two red squares in time, so it wasnt that bad for me. had a few restarts of course, but overall it was a pretty good map. thanks again!

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 04:50:31 PM
ok the good news, i beat it on my first try, the bad news, well look at my score (if i improve my time anytime soon then it'll go down of course but right now it's around 93 minutes).  

Sounds like more fun for the same amount of money. ;) (Yeah, I'm Dutch.... ;D)

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 04:50:31 PM
I don't think i could do a worse job at this so that's the good part, and i think if i can cap (or semi cap) one of those blue squares by odin city, namely the one north of it, at the start, that'll help keep some of the reds from ever going off.  

Spoiler

Although I concentrate on protecting the walls and still collect some energy during the first minutes, I do cap that blue emitter to the north. I just need the space....

[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 04:50:31 PM
It looks like there are 3 emmitters that never activate, two reds (one i might have actually saved but i doubt it) and one grey that i didn't even notice never got started till i'd cleared away all the creeper around it.

Correct. This is because I decided to make the map easier. Initially the red emitters had to be saved for 10 minutes and their intensity was set to 10. The blue emitters were also a little stronger. In these last 2 minutes every red emitter could go off; I just left them in to give every colored plane the same characteristics.

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 04:50:31 PM
Anyways it feels good to beat one of your maps again after so long and this is like 'the teacher' to me, most people can beat it, but there's usually room for improvement.

:) I'm sure the next few maps will also be possible for most people. HA-5 will be based on your painting (but I'm still working on it, so I hope it will be finished in time).

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 30, 2010, 05:00:02 PM
I really liked the scenario with the variable emitters! You really do have to be aggressive if you want it to be easier towards the end. I always have to be careful with the blue square north of OC if you run low on energy. Again, loved your map  :)

Thanks!

Spoiler

Flying around a few weapons can indeed make a difference....

[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 06:30:25 PM
ugh, yeah that square and a little later (or not if things are capped, i'm not sure) the west square as well.  I was having gravedigger flashbacks when i saw the creeper inching onto my red square.

Spoiler

That blue one to the left is more tricky because your blaster will get distracted easily. I often put an additional one there to be safe.

[close]

Quote from: NNR_Alex on July 30, 2010, 06:30:25 PM
still those upperkees i really do like this map, it's one i don't feel really intemidated by, because you can hold your starting spot for a long time, it's expanding outward that can be tricky.  I dunno if i can keep the greys contained but I bet i can stop a few reds from ever starting.

Spoiler

The greys are easier to save (although you need to keep doing this for the entire game). A mortar is most useful for this (as you only need to prevent the creeper levels from rising above elevation level 4).

[close]

Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 30, 2010, 06:57:09 PM
That is a key (stopping the reds), I played too conservative the first time I played and had to deal with everything... not fun! The second time I got a 1 or 2 more blasters towards the start. That made a difference.

Yes, I think so too. The reds can potentially flood the complete map, while the greys will only fill it up to level 4, but at a much faster rate.

Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 31, 2010, 02:10:51 AM
very interesting concept. managed to save all but two red squares in time, so it wasnt that bad for me. had a few restarts of course, but overall it was a pretty good map. thanks again!

So did I. I don't think you can even save the other two, because they're just too close to the blue ones. Thank you as well. :)

I have the impression that most people like the concept, so I might make another map with it. This time I had the restriction of the original painting, which made it harder for me to place the emitters at the 'perfect' distance of each other. Next time I'll create a dedicated terrain for it, but this will be after the Hard Art series.

Fun map and so many ways to go.

Played it a few times and found moving OC at the start suited me best.

Interesting emitters but found the first time I finished it, the 2 drones I built to keep reds dry didnt work for me on a cost/benefit analysis as I was continually distracted. The last time I finished (3rd, not 2nd as I deleted the map by mistake) I built only blasters apart from 2 mortars to help move through the deep pools nearing the end.

Thanks as always.

Quote from: RichieRich on August 01, 2010, 08:14:12 AM
Played it a few times and found moving OC at the start suited me best.

Oh, you moved OC? I really wonder where, because I figured the central starting position would be rather good.

Quote from: RichieRich on August 01, 2010, 08:14:12 AM
Interesting emitters but found the first time I finished it, the 2 drones I built to keep reds dry didnt work for me on a cost/benefit analysis as I was continually distracted. The last time I finished (3rd, not 2nd as I deleted the map by mistake) I built only blasters apart from 2 mortars to help move through the deep pools nearing the end.

Spoiler

Yep, the drones will cost a lot of energy (to build and to fuel) and they'll waste most of it because the pools don't fill up that fast.

[close]

Spoiler

For a review/walkthrough by Mare, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=4138.msg20253#msg20253).

[close]

There was really only one place to go  ;D

(http://s3.postimage.org/OElx9.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=PqOElx9)

Hmmm, I never even considered that and I am actually surprised by your completion time as you have to cross most of the map from that corner. Didn't you have a lot of pre-capped emitters going off on the left side?

I actually found it pretty straightforward to go across with blasters. I found with moving OC I was able to close out the right side with just a few blasters (7 I think). This gave enough space to build power and speed very quickly without creating any deficit.

Lots of pausing to build blasters and reactors but essentially moving across the top and then down.

Another very enjoyable map - on my list of those to try again.

Quote from: RichieRich on August 10, 2010, 10:12:13 AM
I actually found it pretty straightforward to go across with blasters. I found with moving OC I was able to close out the right side with just a few blasters (7 I think). This gave enough space to build power and speed very quickly without creating any deficit.

Lots of pausing to build blasters and reactors but essentially moving across the top and then down.

Always nice to see a different approach!

Quote from: DethbyIT on September 12, 2010, 04:47:04 AM
Another very enjoyable map - on my list of those to try again.

Thanks dbit! :) This is another map that you most likely will be able to improve your time for by a lot.