This topic is for discussion of map #2877: VPAC Incursion
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=2877)
Author: Vertu
Size: 256x160
FINALLY!!
IT IS DONE!!
The hidden bugs and problems in this map fought to the death in hardcore gorilla warfare. In fact one bug even won against me and I made a Last Resort fix to it. You will notice the "Destroy Rift Lab" text would change into "Map Maker Gave Up" if you encounter the bug that won the war.
6, damn days of fixing issue after issue. I hope you all enjoy the map and prove my statement wrong that "it wasn't worth the effort".
Great map but (as always):
What is the point with that little half island with the 3 big and 3 small turrets and the shield? I mean, i destroyed the riftlab and then watch the creeper slowly take that. Then spend another minute or two watch them die, covered in creeper. The heck. O.o
The font colour is horrible to read, i refuse to read that. Please don´t dark fonts with dark background.
Dark fonts with dark background? I always use fully saturated colors, causing them to appear bright with a dark background. I know better than to put dark colors with a dark background or bright with white. It's possibly just how your system deals with color.
So uh... Am I supposed to have control of the VGPSFs that spawn later in the map? Because I have control of them and can just turn them off so they don't bother me.
Edit: And I can use them to hijack control of the one that originally starts on the map as well, sending it to a corner out of the way (but can't turn it off). Not that it matters much, it seems to have stopped reloading at some point in the map.
Quote from: Malignantmind on February 14, 2022, 02:38:56 PM
So uh... Am I supposed to have control of the VGPSFs that spawn later in the map? Because I have control of them and can just turn them off so they don't bother me.
Edit: And I can use them to hijack control of the one that originally starts on the map as well, sending it to a corner out of the way (but can't turn it off). Not that it matters much, it seems to have stopped reloading at some point in the map.
*Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*
No.
So add that to the list of bugs that won the war. I will be sure to look into it (if I remember, been having some issues lately) but I don't think I will be making a fixed version. This map was too much of a pain to make.
If I was able to (which I am not due to.. lets not talk about that in video games), I would totally be creating
the finalized save and before testing it myself like I always do, make a save export for certain people to then play test the map because when you have 3 difficulty settings (technically a 4th is there) I don't think anyone wants to play a map 3 times in a row for who knows how many times over by finding bugs one at a time and playing after each patch. It also helps because I keep developing speed run tactics after play testing enough times and the learning part of the difficulty becomes unaccountable.
I always knew the pains of being a game dev before I did anything like this, but now I know, it's a very quantifiable pain.
Thank you for map. It was fun. I played it some time and save. When i reloaded plains were sitting on one spot shooting till ammo run out. Then were sitting at same spot till i ended map. I was taking all easy choices if that matters.
Cheers!
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 14, 2022, 05:38:46 PM
Thank you for map. It was fun. I played it some time and save. When i reloaded plains were sitting on one spot shooting till ammo run out. Then were sitting at same spot till i ended map. I was taking all easy choices if that matters.
Cheers!
Now this is where some kind of video evidence would be handy due to the complexity of those units, it can be many reasons which made them act like that.. Including the same reason they were selectable as mentioned previously.
Or they could be doing weird fighter things out of protest of defending the base.
Now that you mention it, I did save and exit the game before coming back to finish the level and that's about when the starter plane stopped doing anything and might be connected to the other ones letting me select them. It's way to late for me to start another run tonight, but I'll try to hop on tomorrow and see if I can recreate it
Quote from: Vertu on February 14, 2022, 06:00:36 PM
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 14, 2022, 05:38:46 PM
Thank you for map. It was fun. I played it some time and save. When i reloaded plains were sitting on one spot shooting till ammo run out. Then were sitting at same spot till i ended map. I was taking all easy choices if that matters.
Cheers!
Now this is where some kind of video evidence would be handy due to the complexity of those units, it can be many reasons which made them act like that.. Including the same reason they were selectable as mentioned previously.
Or they could be doing weird fighter things out of protest of defending the base.
Sorry Vertu,
i had 12FPS at best. If start record my PC wil simply pop up like popcorn :)
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 15, 2022, 08:19:53 AM
Quote from: Vertu on February 14, 2022, 06:00:36 PM
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 14, 2022, 05:38:46 PM
Thank you for map. It was fun. I played it some time and save. When i reloaded plains were sitting on one spot shooting till ammo run out. Then were sitting at same spot till i ended map. I was taking all easy choices if that matters.
Cheers!
Now this is where some kind of video evidence would be handy due to the complexity of those units, it can be many reasons which made them act like that.. Including the same reason they were selectable as mentioned previously.
Or they could be doing weird fighter things out of protest of defending the base.
Sorry Vertu,
i had 12FPS at best. If start record my PC wil simply pop up like popcorn :)
No worries!
I have been looking into optimizing the custom units more and more. The VAUs are over 8,000 lines in the CPack and this is due to how information is communicated in their scripts. I do plan on fixing this but they are even then still heavily optimized. There was also a found performance leak in the Blasters, they updated their LOS twice a second at all times, I have since removed that in their PAC version and fixed it in their player version.
What I don't get however is the hypothetical performance taxing from the veteran units. I got strange results as my computer once dreaded the map at one point, then not at another after changing nothing and due to the low quantity of units I doubt it's from the custom units themselves.
However if you play this on a laptop then that is an exception as laptops are potatoes compared to a computer tower.
Also if you find certain "things" to cause more lag than others, do tell. I like insights. However, please exclude the missile vomiter. I am also aware of the stutter that happens when placing the Forge. That is good-old mesh complexity which I might do something about. (Probably not since it's just caused on placing it, nothing else).
Quote from: Malignantmind on February 15, 2022, 03:03:19 AM
Now that you mention it, I did save and exit the game before coming back to finish the level and that's about when the starter plane stopped doing anything and might be connected to the other ones letting me select them. It's way to late for me to start another run tonight, but I'll try to hop on tomorrow and see if I can recreate it
The current leading theory is with how I started to "wirelessly" set the VAU's PAC_MODE, they are no longer in PAC_MODE on gameload.. Wait..
The new leading theory is that my Roll Play CPack script disabled the VAU's PAC_MODE thinking the mission just loaded for the first time. Things get a little funcky when :Gameload is called more than once while being used as a "post-load" instance.
I am still however interested in the odd behavior depicted and a visual display of this odd behavior will clarify how they are acting. They could simply have PAC_MODE disabled and their AI-takeover set to off for what ever reason, acting like a non-PAC_MODE VAU. Their AI could of gotten confused. Their AI could have garbage information that is "jammed" in it's logic. Ect.
Again, I am still not going to make a fixed version. Excuse: The Fighters were already not a fan of assisting sooo if they stop assisting we can call it lore accurate.
Quote from: Vertu on February 15, 2022, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 15, 2022, 08:19:53 AM
Quote from: Vertu on February 14, 2022, 06:00:36 PM
Quote from: ha11oga11o on February 14, 2022, 05:38:46 PM
Thank you for map. It was fun. I played it some time and save. When i reloaded plains were sitting on one spot shooting till ammo run out. Then were sitting at same spot till i ended map. I was taking all easy choices if that matters.
Cheers!
Now this is where some kind of video evidence would be handy due to the complexity of those units, it can be many reasons which made them act like that.. Including the same reason they were selectable as mentioned previously.
Or they could be doing weird fighter things out of protest of defending the base.
Sorry Vertu,
i had 12FPS at best. If start record my PC wil simply pop up like popcorn :)
No worries!
I have been looking into optimizing the custom units more and more. The VAUs are over 8,000 lines in the CPack and this is due to how information is communicated in their scripts. I do plan on fixing this but they are even then still heavily optimized. There was also a found performance leak in the Blasters, they updated their LOS twice a second at all times, I have since removed that in their PAC version and fixed it in their player version.
What I don't get however is the hypothetical performance taxing from the veteran units. I got strange results as my computer once dreaded the map at one point, then not at another after changing nothing and due to the low quantity of units I doubt it's from the custom units themselves.
However if you play this on a laptop then that is an exception as laptops are potatoes compared to a computer tower.
Also if you find certain "things" to cause more lag than others, do tell. I like insights. However, please exclude the missile vomiter. I am also aware of the stutter that happens when placing the Forge. That is good-old mesh complexity which I might do something about. (Probably not since it's just caused on placing it, nothing else).
Quote from: Malignantmind on February 15, 2022, 03:03:19 AM
Now that you mention it, I did save and exit the game before coming back to finish the level and that's about when the starter plane stopped doing anything and might be connected to the other ones letting me select them. It's way to late for me to start another run tonight, but I'll try to hop on tomorrow and see if I can recreate it
The current leading theory is with how I started to "wirelessly" set the VAU's PAC_MODE, they are no longer in PAC_MODE on gameload.. Wait..
The new leading theory is that my Roll Play CPack script disabled the VAU's PAC_MODE thinking the mission just loaded for the first time. Things get a little funcky when :Gameload is called more than once while being used as a "post-load" instance.
I am still however interested in the odd behavior depicted and a visual display of this odd behavior will clarify how they are acting. They could simply have PAC_MODE disabled and their AI-takeover set to off for what ever reason, acting like a non-PAC_MODE VAU. Their AI could of gotten confused. Their AI could have garbage information that is "jammed" in it's logic. Ect.
Again, I am still not going to make a fixed version. Excuse: The Fighters were already not a fan of assisting sooo if they stop assisting we can call it lore accurate.
if can help im playing this on i3 6100, 8 GB RAM, 512 ssd and rx580.
And still have 12 FPS. Probably CPU is bit weakish.
Computer specs are meaningless to me at the moment. The only thing that can be obtained about that is if you meet the required specs on the steam page of CW4.
Worked fine for me the second time through without leaving the game.
Couple things about when the bug happened:
1) The new fighters all spawned in as selectable (and showed as green on the map, rather than red. Dunno if that means anything).
2) The new fighters all spawned in with Armed set to Off. So they were just immediately non-hostile.
3) The original fighter was never selectable, but once the new fighters spawned in, it could be kind of selected if doubleclicking a nearby new fighter. Couldn't change any settings on the original, but you could move it around.
Don't expect you to make a fixed version of this map, but could be useful in the creation of your next one. I've been really enjoying your newer maps as the balance has been really smoothed out (also the tutorial map you made was useful in learning how some of the units actually work). So keep up the good work. Bugs happen and are probably unavoidable in this game. I just wish the base game itself was better optimized because man do PAC maps get laggy.
Quote from: Malignantmind on February 15, 2022, 05:01:10 PM
Worked fine for me the second time through without leaving the game.
Couple things about when the bug happened:
1) The new fighters all spawned in as selectable (and showed as green on the map, rather than red. Dunno if that means anything).
2) The new fighters all spawned in with Armed set to Off. So they were just immediately non-hostile.
3) The original fighter was never selectable, but once the new fighters spawned in, it could be kind of selected if doubleclicking a nearby new fighter. Couldn't change any settings on the original, but you could move it around.
Don't expect you to make a fixed version of this map, but could be useful in the creation of your next one. I've been really enjoying your newer maps as the balance has been really smoothed out (also the tutorial map you made was useful in learning how some of the units actually work). So keep up the good work. Bugs happen and are probably unavoidable in this game. I just wish the base game itself was better optimized because man do PAC maps get laggy.
Theoretically they should always spawned disarmed and then arm themselves. If they spawned and never were set to armed then that should of been something I encountered right away.
Also it was red because it had a red outline. Just a detail.
Quote from: Vertu on February 13, 2022, 06:03:47 PM
Dark fonts with dark background? I always use fully saturated colors, causing them to appear bright with a dark background. I know better than to put dark colors with a dark background or bright with white. It's possibly just how your system deals with color.
It's the (fully saturated) blue on black that's worst. Add any RG to that B, and it'd be fine. Human eyes don't perceive blue in high resolution, and against a black background, it can be really hard to read (also depends on people's screens).
So im fairly new to PAC maps, only played around 40 total across CW3 and CW4, but after trying and retrying this map a few times. It literally doesn't seem possible to progress past the starting area, i've tried launchers, mesh, pushing, Air Missles, and just mass Emitters, nothing I do pushes past the triple cannon in the bottom center, both the sniper and the AA reload 3x faster than i can send units at them. I've notice every single PAC that includes SAM's they literally dont do anything, just pokes the crafts for less than 1 red dot that heals long before the reload happens, yet for some reason they cost 5 to use. even with 10 of them it wouldn't kill an Aircraft.
If anyone has any tips, would be greatly appreciated.
The SAM-AV reached a stable place in balance at VPAC Canyon Network. Until then, they where not too viable compared to how robust the Fighters are.
Quote from: CuteExponent on March 22, 2022, 12:23:44 PM
So im fairly new to PAC maps, only played around 40 total across CW3 and CW4, but after trying and retrying this map a few times. It literally doesn't seem possible to progress past the starting area, i've tried launchers, mesh, pushing, Air Missles, and just mass Emitters, nothing I do pushes past the triple cannon in the bottom center, both the sniper and the AA reload 3x faster than i can send units at them. I've notice every single PAC that includes SAM's they literally dont do anything, just pokes the crafts for less than 1 red dot that heals long before the reload happens, yet for some reason they cost 5 to use. even with 10 of them it wouldn't kill an Aircraft.
If anyone has any tips, would be greatly appreciated.
hope this is helping.
Spoiler
I beat it this way (hardcore-mode):build 3 Launcher next to the starting point (you can see where you can put them as close as possible), set to locations: 1. Power Holder left side of the half-island you start; 2&3 against the bottom-right-shild+mobile rift (first spore kills the shild, second the rift).-dont forget to build the forge just next to the second emitter- Then next wave of spores: 1: to the bottom right corner,next to the bluite (free spot to build an advanced emitter there - just sell the launchers 1&2 after after the 2.shot if necessary -as soon as it runs, swap it to a normal emitter) 2&3 to kill the "pink island" rift below your starting point. next wave: just a little bit above the rift below the greenar. try to build an advanced emitter where it hits. if you go directly to at the rift, the spore will get shot. now sell every launcher and push yourself down to the 3 cannons (use advanced emitter+ fieldgen). as soon as you got them down, push up to the shild where the beacon is (its the first one in the raw with the powerholder).now push yourself against the shild with adv emitters and fieldgen. as soon as you got the rift down, it will get a lot easier. you can build a launcher inside the shild and launch one spore - it will destroy the shild and that will help you a lot.
from there you need to push yourself down to the redon ore (use lures and a lot of mesh! - I work with 3-4 adv emitters and got there inch by inch). you´ll most likely push yourself under the shilds in the middle - it's a good way too. from there you push yourself down to the three greenars and kill the sniper. if you get a working launcher next to the bluite ore, you send blobs to the rift there and thats done. if you´re that far, you should handle the rest by yourself. as soon as you got 12-14 powerpoints + your borders secure with a few advanced emitters, you could launch a massive spore spam to the fortress in the north. it will take 3-4 waves till they run out of redon and you get the hit. as soon as you kill this rift, the game is over (2more power holders there and guess what - only one 3.8 redon ore left for feeding the anti-air...-just shot the rift lab down as fast as you can... else you´ll get a nasty surprise^^).
use lures and mesh everything you can (put one lure as far left as you can on your part of the island and with mesh under it - it wont get destroyed because the mesh heals it and you dont get that much hits from the main fortress).
Quote from: Freed on March 27, 2022, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: CuteExponent on March 22, 2022, 12:23:44 PM
So im fairly new to PAC maps, only played around 40 total across CW3 and CW4, but after trying and retrying this map a few times. It literally doesn't seem possible to progress past the starting area, i've tried launchers, mesh, pushing, Air Missles, and just mass Emitters, nothing I do pushes past the triple cannon in the bottom center, both the sniper and the AA reload 3x faster than i can send units at them. I've notice every single PAC that includes SAM's they literally dont do anything, just pokes the crafts for less than 1 red dot that heals long before the reload happens, yet for some reason they cost 5 to use. even with 10 of them it wouldn't kill an Aircraft.
If anyone has any tips, would be greatly appreciated.
hope this is helping.
Spoiler
I beat it this way (hardcore-mode):build 3 Launcher next to the starting point (you can see where you can put them as close as possible), set to locations: 1. Power Holder left side of the half-island you start; 2&3 against the bottom-right-shild+mobile rift (first spore kills the shild, second the rift).-dont forget to build the forge just next to the second emitter- Then next wave of spores: 1: to the bottom right corner,next to the bluite (free spot to build an advanced emitter there - just sell the launchers 1&2 after after the 2.shot if necessary -as soon as it runs, swap it to a normal emitter) 2&3 to kill the "pink island" rift below your starting point. next wave: just a little bit above the rift below the greenar. try to build an advanced emitter where it hits. if you go directly to at the rift, the spore will get shot. now sell every launcher and push yourself down to the 3 cannons (use advanced emitter+ fieldgen). as soon as you got them down, push up to the shild where the beacon is (its the first one in the raw with the powerholder).now push yourself against the shild with adv emitters and fieldgen. as soon as you got the rift down, it will get a lot easier. you can build a launcher inside the shild and launch one spore - it will destroy the shild and that will help you a lot.
from there you need to push yourself down to the redon ore (use lures and a lot of mesh! - I work with 3-4 adv emitters and got there inch by inch). you´ll most likely push yourself under the shilds in the middle - it's a good way too. from there you push yourself down to the three greenars and kill the sniper. if you get a working launcher next to the bluite ore, you send blobs to the rift there and thats done. if you´re that far, you should handle the rest by yourself. as soon as you got 12-14 powerpoints + your borders secure with a few advanced emitters, you could launch a massive spore spam to the fortress in the north. it will take 3-4 waves till they run out of redon and you get the hit. as soon as you kill this rift, the game is over (2more power holders there and guess what - only one 3.8 redon ore left for feeding the anti-air...-just shot the rift lab down as fast as you can... else you´ll get a nasty surprise^^).
use lures and mesh everything you can (put one lure as far left as you can on your part of the island and with mesh under it - it wont get destroyed because the mesh heals it and you dont get that much hits from the main fortress).
Well done sir. That's a near identical rollout after my 20th playtest where I got the fastest time and finalized it. Things began to differentiate after killing the micro-rift near the greenar.
I applauded you.
Hopefully with my most recent map, the now Light SAM will actually be useful and be incorporated in such refined strategies.
thanks - I wasnt sure if I really want to play this map (I don´t like the ground-ground-rockets that much)... but it was fun in the end.
Quote from: Freed on March 29, 2022, 02:37:59 PM
thanks - I wasnt sure if I really want to play this map (I don´t like the ground-ground-rockets that much)... but it was fun in the end.
I assure you I am well aware of the pain of watching the rockets be so effective. They where rebalanced starting at VPAC Small Fry when it comes to their kill-power. Also a form of point-defense is planned.
I made a forum account just to say - WHAT AN AMAZING MAP!
I love your maps Vertu, Prospector fortress was great as well (if a bit laggy), but I think this is the best one yet, and I have a few that you released after this still to play. The ~105 seconds to set up before the enemy starts shooting also allows to set up a foothold in different ways. Please keep up the good work!
As for the strategy on hardcore
Spoiler
I didn't take advantage of the free time of enemy inactivity to kill microrifts with spores (maybe next playthrough), but I bruteforced the map with advanced emitters, stashes, and standard field emitter+crimsonator strategy. Love the upgraded SAMs, 2 of them plus an armored lure kept the fighters out of the way (apart from the reactor fighter but it came so late in the game it was only a nuisance)
Quote from: VuleJr on April 21, 2022, 09:35:58 AM
I made a forum account just to say - WHAT AN AMAZING MAP!
I love your maps Vertu, Prospector fortress was great as well (if a bit laggy), but I think this is the best one yet, and I have a few that you released after this still to play. The ~105 seconds to set up before the enemy starts shooting also allows to set up a foothold in different ways. Please keep up the good work!
As for the strategy on hardcore
Spoiler
I didn't take advantage of the free time of enemy inactivity to kill microrifts with spores (maybe next playthrough), but I bruteforced the map with advanced emitters, stashes, and standard field emitter+crimsonator strategy. Love the upgraded SAMs, 2 of them plus an armored lure kept the fighters out of the way (apart from the reactor fighter but it came so late in the game it was only a nuisance)
I very much appreciate the compliment. Thanks.
Hope you find the other maps to be of similar quality in experience.
Quote from: Freed on March 27, 2022, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: CuteExponent on March 22, 2022, 12:23:44 PM
So im fairly new to PAC maps, only played around 40 total across CW3 and CW4, but after trying and retrying this map a few times. It literally doesn't seem possible to progress past the starting area, i've tried launchers, mesh, pushing, Air Missles, and just mass Emitters, nothing I do pushes past the triple cannon in the bottom center, both the sniper and the AA reload 3x faster than i can send units at them. I've notice every single PAC that includes SAM's they literally dont do anything, just pokes the crafts for less than 1 red dot that heals long before the reload happens, yet for some reason they cost 5 to use. even with 10 of them it wouldn't kill an Aircraft.
If anyone has any tips, would be greatly appreciated.
hope this is helping.
Spoiler
I beat it this way (hardcore-mode):build 3 Launcher next to the starting point (you can see where you can put them as close as possible), set to locations: 1. Power Holder left side of the half-island you start; 2&3 against the bottom-right-shild+mobile rift (first spore kills the shild, second the rift).-dont forget to build the forge just next to the second emitter- Then next wave of spores: 1: to the bottom right corner,next to the bluite (free spot to build an advanced emitter there - just sell the launchers 1&2 after after the 2.shot if necessary -as soon as it runs, swap it to a normal emitter) 2&3 to kill the "pink island" rift below your starting point. next wave: just a little bit above the rift below the greenar. try to build an advanced emitter where it hits. if you go directly to at the rift, the spore will get shot. now sell every launcher and push yourself down to the 3 cannons (use advanced emitter+ fieldgen). as soon as you got them down, push up to the shild where the beacon is (its the first one in the raw with the powerholder).now push yourself against the shild with adv emitters and fieldgen. as soon as you got the rift down, it will get a lot easier. you can build a launcher inside the shild and launch one spore - it will destroy the shild and that will help you a lot.
from there you need to push yourself down to the redon ore (use lures and a lot of mesh! - I work with 3-4 adv emitters and got there inch by inch). you´ll most likely push yourself under the shilds in the middle - it's a good way too. from there you push yourself down to the three greenars and kill the sniper. if you get a working launcher next to the bluite ore, you send blobs to the rift there and thats done. if you´re that far, you should handle the rest by yourself. as soon as you got 12-14 powerpoints + your borders secure with a few advanced emitters, you could launch a massive spore spam to the fortress in the north. it will take 3-4 waves till they run out of redon and you get the hit. as soon as you kill this rift, the game is over (2more power holders there and guess what - only one 3.8 redon ore left for feeding the anti-air...-just shot the rift lab down as fast as you can... else you´ll get a nasty surprise^^).
use lures and mesh everything you can (put one lure as far left as you can on your part of the island and with mesh under it - it wont get destroyed because the mesh heals it and you dont get that much hits from the main fortress).
What shield are you talking about? On the starting island there's only totems. You can't kill those and they don't deactivate.
I'm having the same issue as CuteExponent. No matter what I do, I can't get out of the starting area. Too many rockets, plus the nuke, plus the unkillable jet (unkillable because it runs away before it can be killed), can't get use spores because of the totem spam protecting everything (shields are fine, totems are dumb, totems have no counter), totems make skimmers irrelevant because you can't get past the shield with the skimmers, blobs are ineffective unless you spam 20+ of them to overwhelm the point defense, adv emitters are effective until you get to the choke point and then they just can't compete with the laser and cannons and rockets and nukes and fighter and kitchen sink....crimson doesn't even work, even with a field gen pushing it.
Some of your maps are fun. Some of them are so tedious that they're not fun. Then there's maps like this one. It's just plain not fun because there's apparently only one strat that works and if you don't do it perfectly, down to the 0.10th of a second, you might as well just start over.