This topic is for discussion of map #1698: PAC - Corrosive Creeper
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=1698)
Author: Shatterstep
Size: 300x218
How easy a position is depends greatly on skill with PAC.
- Upper-left is easiest.
- Upper-right might be best for novices or those new to PAC because you take out one sweeper at the start, and the berthas are really close to kill off.
- Bottom-center is the hardest. The berthas are likely going to be a pain far longer than the other areas.
Each position plays quite differently, so try them all. I usually found myself wanting to take the entire map, even when I was able to end it much sooner. Something about dissolving everything was too amusing.
Really hard to gauge how hard or easy a map will be. Hopefully people will find it entertaining. I have played this map 100+ times trying to get things just right.
Tip: An emitter paired with a field gen is your most powerful tool.
Tip:
DON'T FORGET LAUNCHERS CAN DO MORE THAN JUST SPORES. Seriously. Lots of anti-air around? Then send some blobs to a specific location, like the factory, for example. They can insta-kill as long as you don't have snipers around.
This is the first remix of a map where I have submitted it before I got the reply back. I know it is just a courtesy, but still. Anyway, original map, #1653 "Return of The Creep (PAC)", was by Ranger Von Danger.
Using PAC mods from WithersChat and Auri, and tweaks by Ankheg and Shatterstep (me).
Fun map with a bunch of options. I started upper left but ended up with a slower time, but that's because I was just taking my time and conquering the whole map.
Also, liked the comprehensive set of information at the beginning.
Quote from: Durikkan on June 04, 2021, 12:28:18 AM
Fun map with a bunch of options. I started upper left but ended up with a slower time, but that's because I was just taking my time and conquering the whole map.
I have played that map literally over 100 times, not to mention I created it myself. So my low time isn't that big a deal.
Personally, I find it more fun to just savor the experience and take my time. I am finding it easier with CW4 than CW3 to not worry so much about time. I wonder why...
Quote from: Durikkan on June 04, 2021, 12:28:18 AM
Also, liked the comprehensive set of information at the beginning.
I'm glad. It took a lot of back and forth to get the formatting just right. I wanted more of an explanation on what was going on with PAC and my specific changes to specials.
On a different note, I really hope the changes I made to the command layout for PAC continues on other maps. I prefer all the most important stuff be on one page. All other maps I have to constantly switch between 3 different tabs.
Kick-ass mods, Durikkan. It has to be one of my favorite modes. Thank goodness for you and the other mod makers. Feel free to take anything useful from my changes. No need to give an attribution to me even. Anything that makes it easier to make new maps and for players to enjoy, that is all I care about.
Really fun map. Glad the dissolving ground doesn't dissolve all the way to void. I was worried about that at first and had flashbacks to Heritor's Pump 19 map and its instant fail condition.
I wonder if an upgrade system could be doable with PAC. Like enhancements to buildings. Or new buildings even. A creeper version of the satellite powers? That would be funny.
Loved it
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 03:07:15 AM
I wonder if an upgrade system could be doable with PAC. Like enhancements to buildings. Or new buildings even. A creeper version of the satellite powers? That would be funny.
Possible, yes. There's no question there's some sort of thing to allow upgrades. Doable? That's for the people that manage PAC CPACKs to answer.
An excellent variation on an excellent map. I like having almost everything in the weapon menu, instead of constantly switching back and forth for field gens and emitters. Having all of that info at the start is good as a recap for new players who don't play everything in order.
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 12:58:45 AM
On a different note, I really hope the changes I made to the command layout for PAC continues on other maps. I prefer all the most important stuff be on one page. All other maps I have to constantly switch between 3 different tabs.
The only thing about that, is if I add anything more to my extension, you'd have to either scroll up and down, or split it to two pages.
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 03:07:15 AM
I wonder if an upgrade system could be doable with PAC. Like enhancements to buildings. Or new buildings even. A creeper version of the satellite powers? That would be funny.
That was actually something I thought about when putting together my extension. The main concerns are to have it not just result in time-gating the level (i.e. waiting for upgrade points to accumulate before you can win), and also making the options all viable, and avoid it causing even further specialization. (As it is, there's basically no pac level where I've felt it needed to use all of the possible options).
Quote from: Durikkan on June 04, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 12:58:45 AM
On a different note, I really hope the changes I made to the command layout for PAC continues on other maps. I prefer all the most important stuff be on one page. All other maps I have to constantly switch between 3 different tabs.
The only thing about that, is if I add anything more to my extension, you'd have to either scroll up and down, or split it to two pages.
I would put the stash, then possibly egg-gen on the STRUCT tab first since I would guess they would be used the least. I'm really good at UI. I would be more than happy to help as things get added.
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Durikkan on June 04, 2021, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: Shatterstep on June 04, 2021, 12:58:45 AM
On a different note, I really hope the changes I made to the command layout for PAC continues on other maps. I prefer all the most important stuff be on one page. All other maps I have to constantly switch between 3 different tabs.
The only thing about that, is if I add anything more to my extension, you'd have to either scroll up and down, or split it to two pages.
I would put the stash, then possibly egg-gen on the STRUCT tab first since I would guess they would be used the least. I'm really good at UI. I would be more than happy to help as things get added.
I can honestly say after playing every PAC map so far, I've never once bothered making the stash. It just seems like a waste. I also rarely mess with launchers because it's so easy for them to be rendered useless by snipers or anti-air.
Egg-gen gets more use. It's great if you need to do a big push. Slap an egg-gen down with an emitter or two nearby so it builds up quick, pop all eggs, delete egg-gen so it doesn't eat up any of the newly spawned creeper, and then watch the massive wave wash over everything.
For the curious, there are 3 Shattered Land specials on this map. Higher strength means higher durability.
- Position 5: Strength: 255, Min Height: 3 <-- this is what mainly covers all hills
- Position 3: Strength: 10, Min Height: 4
- Position 7: Strength: 10, Min Height: 1
When you have multiples of the same type of special, it helps to temporarily assign them to another resource type so you can verify placement. I attached 5 images.
- ShatteredLand-Revealed.jpg has #3 changed to AC and #7 changed to Crimsonator.
- ShatteredLand-Contaminant.jpg has #7 changed to contaminant (all red) to make it easier to see.
Quicker dissolving land
under human units makes them more vulnerable.
Surrounding human units makes them more survivable. Different min heights, for after the shattered land has disolved (see the last 2 images), can make for interesting designs. Fun stuff.
Okay finally got around to playing it from all three starting locations. I'd say the bottom center is actually the most difficult starting position, as it's the furthest away from any of the resource deposits. Top right, you can immediately shut down the sweepers and berthas, and the top left, you have easy access to just taking out the factory right away and shutting it all down.
I did learn something new though. Never realized that blobs would pick up eggs that are on the ground when they pass by. Setting up a egg-gen directly in the path of the blob nest on the bottom right and then popping all eggs while they were behind enemy lines was a huge help.
Quote from: Malignantmind on June 04, 2021, 10:21:50 PM
Okay finally got around to playing it from all three starting locations. I'd say the bottom center is actually the most difficult starting position, as it's the furthest away from any of the resource deposits. Top right, you can immediately shut down the sweepers and berthas, and the top left, you have easy access to just taking out the factory right away and shutting it all down.
It was a bit of an epiphany that I could make a map that had different difficulty based on starting position. I'm going to have to do that with my other maps too.
Quote from: Malignantmind on June 04, 2021, 10:21:50 PM
I did learn something new though. Never realized that blobs would pick up eggs that are on the ground when they pass by. Setting up a egg-gen directly in the path of the blob nest on the bottom right and then popping all eggs while they were behind enemy lines was a huge help.
Ankheg made some quality of life changes to the PAC mod on map #1600, "Episode 2: Ambush at Fort Creep".
Quote from: Ankheg within map 1600, "Episode 2: Ambush at Fort Creep"QoL changes:
-When laying down mesh your cursor will no longer select your units and exit mesh mode.
-Blobs created by the launcher can pick up one egg if they walk near it.
-Stashes will release their stored up creep when you delete them.
-PAC units now show on the minimap as a red dot.
-When you select a target on the ground for a launcher it will switch the target mode to location automatically. (Quirk: the display will not update properly until the game is unpaused and you do not have the launcher selected.)
I remembered Ankheg's had made these changes, so I carefully merged them with the base PAC mod. I kept everything except 2 lines of code which delt with selectability and the editor. Caused some weirdness for me, so to be safe I commented those 2 lines out. Essentially it is the same PAC verson Ankheg had on that map code-wise. I made changes to the build menu. Nothing code-wise.
Anyway, PAC's version of blobs being able to carry eggs was in 2 of Ankheg's maps (#1600 and #1601), and this map that I made. It isn't part of any other PAC maps. At least not yet as far as I know.
Ankheg's change to mesh placement was also quite welcome.
We have a lot of talented people around. Really allows us to do some fun stuff.
Oh wow I didn't realize that was part of the mod, I thought it was just default blob behavior that I hadn't noticed before. 10/10 good addition though
Quote from: Malignantmind on June 04, 2021, 11:03:12 PM
Oh wow I didn't realize that was part of the mod, I thought it was just default blob behavior that I hadn't noticed before. 10/10 good addition though
Have to agree. It is nice.
In the base game blob spawners can be set so that they have a % chance to carry an egg. For PAC it is just this map and 2 of Ankheg's. Really hope it becomes a permanent part of PAC though.
Quote from: Malignantmind on June 04, 2021, 11:03:12 PM
Oh wow I didn't realize that was part of the mod, I thought it was just default blob behavior that I hadn't noticed before. 10/10 good addition though
It actually is just the default game behavior. If a blob is set by a blob nest as a carrier, then any egg it gets within 2-3 tiles of gets attached to it, but it's limited to 1 egg.
The PAC mode originally spawned blobs with egg mode disabled, but it's been switched to be always enabled, so basically it spawns as if it was a blob nest set to 100% egg carry chance. An interesting note is that if you pop the egg it's carrying (such as by clicking), it will grab a new one if it passes within 2-3 tiles of one.
Quote from: Malignantmind on June 04, 2021, 04:43:43 PM
I can honestly say after playing every PAC map so far, I've never once bothered making the stash. It just seems like a waste. I also rarely mess with launchers because it's so easy for them to be rendered useless by snipers or anti-air.
Egg-gen gets more use. It's great if you need to do a big push. Slap an egg-gen down with an emitter or two nearby so it builds up quick, pop all eggs, delete egg-gen so it doesn't eat up any of the newly spawned creeper, and then watch the massive wave wash over everything.
Stash has been an effective tool for me on a lot of maps. The burst power of the waves can be very useful, and it's not obvious but it does generate creep (stashes multiply the creep they gather). The downside of stashes is that you need to be able to feed them enough that they go off promptly, and laying down a stash that just sits there barely doing anything wastes time and resources. Also until my QoL changes if you deleted it the creep it collected went away. So they were a tool best used with some care, and you usually need a certain minimum creep and ERNs to use them effectively.
Launchers are one of my favorite things, but it's a fine line between face-roll easy and extremely difficult when you build a map.
To Shatterstep: Great map, and it's really nice to see my QoL changes seeing some use. Also to be fair, the blobs picking up eggs as they go by was actually Auri's doing. I just used the code Auri gave me. I think it's neat, and could give map-makers and players a way for maps to do interesting things.
This is an awesome map. Well designed and thought out. Well put instructions. Amazing.
For the curious, here are two videos of people playing the map.
The Original BvF (they chose upper-right position)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV_HE04FCJ0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV_HE04FCJ0)
Angory Tom (they chose upper-left position)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAVy4zzXBN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAVy4zzXBN8)
Not a bad map by any standards, but there's a way to speed through:
Start in the top left zone, near the bluite nodes. use spawners and a field gen to quickly pick up some ERNs, wreck the towers gathering the bluite, and vitally, start putting pressure on the anti-air towers around the factory.
Next, with the AA towers gone, get two spores down at the same time next to each other, this is so the spores are practically launched at the same time and will hit roughly at the same time. use them to knock out the M-rifts either side of the factory, then the factory just in case its cache of Arg is enough to rebuild an M-rift.
After that, focus on gathering ERNs. I pushed south. you don't really need more than a couple of spawners to make your progress simple. pour every ERN you aren't using on Field-gen (you only really need one Field-gen) into spore launchers. no Arg production means no AA defence, which means if you can just hound the Lab with spores, you'll be done in under a quarter of an hour, I managed 14:26.
I admit, it's a bit of a cheese, but it worked well, well enough I wanted to point it out. I'm not normally the fastest on these maps.
Quote from: ilmarinen999 on June 23, 2021, 10:58:25 PM
Not a bad map by any standards, but there's a way to speed through:
.....
I admit, it's a bit of a cheese, but it worked well, well enough I wanted to point it out. I'm not normally the fastest on these maps.
Yep, each position has a different difficulty by design. Top-left is easiest, bottom-center is most challenging. If you are looking for a challenge, try bottom-center.
Hope you enjoyed it.