This topic is for discussion of map #1647: FPS: Wandering Fields
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=1647)
Author: Kaiden
Size: 320x200
Stop making maps
Quote from: yewstmlab on May 25, 2021, 08:50:27 PM
Stop making maps
No, I'll make maps whether you like it or not, as long as I have some new ideas.
I'm just gonna save everyone the hassle of playing this one.
I had high hopes at first. It looked like some of the suggestions were implemented (sniper upgrades, splitting up the spawners into individual forts, I don't think I saw a single one of the 25+ health enemies).
Unfortunately, there's a new unit. It doesn't follow you, but it flies all over the map dropping creeper. And there was like, 20 of these things zooming around. Often well out of sniper range. By the 15 minute mark, there was over 1 million creeper on the map. 5 minutes later, it had completely flooded the entire map making it unplayable.
So, don't waste your time playing this one.
Quote from: Malignantmind on May 25, 2021, 09:05:51 PM
I'm just gonna save everyone the hassle of playing this one.
I had high hopes at first. It looked like some of the suggestions were implemented (sniper upgrades, splitting up the spawners into individual forts, I don't think I saw a single one of the 25+ health enemies).
Unfortunately, there's a new unit. It doesn't follow you, but it flies all over the map dropping creeper. By the 15 minute mark, there was over 1 million creeper on the map. 5 minutes later, it had completely flooded the entire map making it unplayable.
So, don't waste your time playing this one.
You're actually supposed to keep the amount of wanderers under control or it will get out of hand fast. Autodefense is pretty good for taking care of the wanderers that passes by you.
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Quote from: Kaiden on May 25, 2021, 09:07:24 PM
Quote from: Malignantmind on May 25, 2021, 09:05:51 PM
I'm just gonna save everyone the hassle of playing this one.
I had high hopes at first. It looked like some of the suggestions were implemented (sniper upgrades, splitting up the spawners into individual forts, I don't think I saw a single one of the 25+ health enemies).
Unfortunately, there's a new unit. It doesn't follow you, but it flies all over the map dropping creeper. By the 15 minute mark, there was over 1 million creeper on the map. 5 minutes later, it had completely flooded the entire map making it unplayable.
So, don't waste your time playing this one.
You're actually supposed to keep the amount of wanderers under control or it will get out of hand fast. Autodefense is pretty good for taking care of the wanderers that passes by you.
Autodefense doesn't help at all when they're all on the other side of the map. The majority of them were well out of sniper range the entire time.
Quote from: Malignantmind on May 25, 2021, 09:09:18 PM
Quote from: Kaiden on May 25, 2021, 09:07:24 PM
Quote from: Malignantmind on May 25, 2021, 09:05:51 PM
I'm just gonna save everyone the hassle of playing this one.
I had high hopes at first. It looked like some of the suggestions were implemented (sniper upgrades, splitting up the spawners into individual forts, I don't think I saw a single one of the 25+ health enemies).
Unfortunately, there's a new unit. It doesn't follow you, but it flies all over the map dropping creeper. By the 15 minute mark, there was over 1 million creeper on the map. 5 minutes later, it had completely flooded the entire map making it unplayable.
So, don't waste your time playing this one.
You're actually supposed to keep the amount of wanderers under control or it will get out of hand fast. Autodefense is pretty good for taking care of the wanderers that passes by you.
Autodefense doesn't help at all when they're all on the other side of the map. The majority of them were well out of sniper range the entire time.
They do go to random locations, so they will eventually come to you. Don't forget the sniper has 80 range, and you can destroy the spawners to reduce the amount of wanderers spawned overall
Again the solution to this map is to just make every bit of ground AC breeder Maybe with the low cap you could just bee line into the end area and take it out first..
Okay so since some players are struggling a bit with the wanderers, here are tips to help deal with the wanderers:
Get autodefense as early as you can, this frees up a lot of time from dealing with the other enemies and will help kill wanderers that gets close enough.
Check the minimap occasionally to keep track of their positions, and when they're close enough to your position, find them and kill them as fast as possible.
Wanderers go to random locations on the minimap, so if it feels like they are staying on one side of the map, a couple might have slipped past you without noticing. And even then, eventually the wanderers will go to the other side of the map.
Get to the fortresses as fast as you can, then destroy the wanderer spawners, destroying the spawners will mean there will be less wanderers spawned overall.
Quote from: ikkonoishi on May 25, 2021, 09:15:45 PM
Again the solution to this map is to just make every bit of ground AC breeder Maybe with the low cap you could just bee line into the end area and take it out first..
You do need to get all 4 info caches from the smaller fortresses first, so this means you can't just beeline straight to the end area and destroy the sleeper lab early
the first time the creeper flooded me, but second time made it in an hour, you need to hurry the first minute and get as many cubes as posible, sniper and mortar, then ac breeder and focus on capturing breeding grounds, the forts open when u get the cube in front and the creepers on top wont really bother you at first..
fun map
So I'll start with the good. The sniper upgrades really help keep the wanderers in check and make that part flow pretty well, and it's nice to be able to weaken them.
With that said, this map is a bit frustrating. First, the yellow wanders really need a cap. In the early part of the game they mostly stay on the far side of the map and inflate the creeper well past the limit, I think it took me 12 minutes to finally get the creeper cap under 5, and it was as high as 8.
Second, after you get them under control the map just becomes a bit of a slog, there's just too much creeper production, from all of the breeder to the forbs and emitters. From minute 12, to minute 42, the creeper cap never fell under 4.5 I had 18 levels of weapon effect by the end, and had reduced the enemy to just the one last corner base, and it would still max out the creeper cap every time the breeders ticked, so I eventually just gave up and quit. I'd just spent 15 minutes (From ~27 to 42) slowly picking off all the buildings on the outside, as the second to last fort had fallen at 27 minutes). It just felt like I'd have to wait for more upgrades to finish because of the excess creeper generation, which may be true because everyone seemed to have slower times than that.
Utterly impossible. WAY too much creeper gen. Even if I charge through recklessly, I cannot shut off enough creeper in order to not become overwhelmed.
P.s. Why is the ENTIRE terrain generating creeper?
Quote from: Kaiden on May 25, 2021, 09:19:35 PM
Quote from: ikkonoishi on May 25, 2021, 09:15:45 PM
Again the solution to this map is to just make every bit of ground AC breeder Maybe with the low cap you could just bee line into the end area and take it out first..
You do need to get all 4 info caches from the smaller fortresses first, so this means you can't just beeline straight to the end area and destroy the sleeper lab early
You're falling into a trap that heritor fell into - assuming that everyone can play the map as well as you can. You have encylopaedic knowledge of how the level is built, and exactly how to go about it.
We do not.
It is heavily unbalanced, and folks are trying to guide you in a way to make the map more fair.
You need to cap the amount of creeper that can be on the map, cap the amount of enemies, and/or reduce the amount of creeper being generated by enemies.
This is definitely better. The upgradeable sniper and lack of tanks is a huge improvement to sniping quality-of-life. Managed a 26 minute time on my third run, and didn't even need AC breeder or the dual sniper upgrade.
That being said, I only got it that low by abusing the creeper cap - selectively targeting caches and buildings, while avoiding clearing creeper. Trying a full-clear approach was very frustrating - the creeper kept pushing the cap all the way past 45 minutes, meaning its production was well in excess of my damage and captured breeder terrain put together.
As for the main elements of the map - the Wanderer and Necromancer have potential. They can influence the battlefield without being right in your face, which motivates the player to seek them out.
The other three, though, they all come right to you, all in exactly the same way, meaning the player has no special considerations to make. Just need to turn, shoot, back to work. (It works okay as the zombies' mechanic, because they're effectively the weapon of something else.)
More unit diversity would be good, and more units that make the player think would be huge.
Fun map. Not sure why everyone has so much problem with it. Seems relatively straightforward if you get auto defense.
Beating this would probably result in long term PTSD and paranoia
Every time I see an FPS map I get excited, these enemies make me lose that.
Positive Side: Cool layout. I like seeing the sniper upgradeable.
Not-So-Great Side:
- Creeper Breeder - Redundant with the crap-ton everything else was laying down. It really contributes to the slog. Should have been flip or even AC breeder.
- Mobs - Fewer, and maybe similar type in each area. Maybe each area gets harder to assault, not all at the same level.
- Skill Cost - Keep it to 1 or 2 points for most skills. Satellite ones maybe slightly cheaper (I never buy them so I don't know).
I hate critiquing maps. Ugh.
If you want to appeal to a larger audience things need to be more accessible. I think a lot of the frustration from players comes from how creative your additions are. People get their hopes up, but then.... anyway. You know, the funny thing is with some fine tuning I'm sure this map would be widely loved. Alas.
If you are going to continue at the same difficulty level, it might be worth tagging your maps as expert level or something similar. Managing expectations can make a world of difference.
Don't give up. You are such a skilled map maker.
Interesting. I just replayed the map, but changed the creeper breeder to flip breeder, and added a few extra points to make up for the anti-crimson and autodefense abilities exorbitant costs. It was much more enjoyable. I think changing the creeper breeder to flip breeder was the biggest difference. Hmm, I also limited the new flip breeder resource creeper-height to 10 instead of 20. Meh, maybe that makes things too easy.
Anyway...
The map starts out okay but then fails at one of the most basic, well-established CW4 FPS gameplay mechanics:
The point of the 4 minute mark bonus is to help players who are struggling. This is so that even if they are currently stuck, they can still eventually win even if their play time will not be great while those who are CW4 FPS pros will generally do better and need fewer bonus points. Without a reasonable creeper cap or cutting the time between the bonus point(s) or other options (e.g. autobuild), creeper generation vastly exceeds the bonus points and the player gets shoved back into the starting corner where they die once the creeper gets upwards of 2.6M and finally overwhelms the shield. A slow death after playing for 25 minutes is not fun, which is was what happened on my first attempt. Don't know if I even want to try a second time.
Even placing down a bunch of AC breeder spots isn't sufficient for this map as someone suggested. That only delays the inevitable.
Also, there are 4 starting points to spend but auto-defense is now 3 times the cost. Since auto-defense is required (3 points), that leaves very limited options to select from.
This map is good, just play the objectives (kill/collect).
Covering the map with AC will take over an hour.
Personally I think the best way to deal with all the problems with the new sleeper units is to make them not need the use of sniper.
If you can use the cannon or mortar to deal with them, you could use the mortar when they are far away. This lets you kill them before they get close and also most likely remove a good bit of creeper at he same time. The cannon would be good for tagging the faster units close to you will also helping to keep the area close to you clear.
It would also help with my ears ringing from all the sniper shots.
Your other maps were really fun.
The main problem is just that the new units halt progression rather frequently which is what seems to be one of the biggest problems ATM.
Keep experimenting until eventually you find a sweet spot.
Really enjoyed the map.
Didn't really have any problems with the map.
I did take auto defense from the start.
Really like that that spawners are now split up between forts.
Killing off the spawners in one or two forts makes a difference that you can feel. That is good.
Double sniper is nice, though I have to admit I didn't take it on my second run.
I found it more useful to aim for things that help me kill off the structures / spawners.
Felt that I sort of had to go with singularity + conversion to take on the last few creeper footholds (the main reason I restarted.)
But that is sort of a minor nitpick.
Good job with the map.
I like that the spawners where spread out so it where possible to limit the enemys by destroying them. Also really liked the removal of the spreading mesh and that there where no skimmers. I think that this map is much better than the previous map and that you are on the right track when making maps.
I would like if there was a ramp up on the wall in the fortresses since I think it is sometimes hard to aim on things that are on the wall. I think that the wandere could be little bit slower.
If it is possible to make so that the towers and pylons contribut to the maximum creeper, so the map start with 5 on the creeper cutoff and by destroing a tower the maximum reduces by 0.1 or something.
Also I think I had a bug when I pushed to far into the creep and died I respawn on the spot I died wich where inside the creep.
Quote from: Dismissdan on May 26, 2021, 01:27:19 AM
Fun map. Not sure why everyone has so much problem with it. Seems relatively straightforward if you get auto defense.
i had auto defence on 6 different tries and it did nothing worth while it bought me maybe ONE WHOLE XTRA SECOND! the nw flying usits ar getting WORSE not better, the earlier feedback was to dial them down, but the map dev seems to take Turbine method "oh you like A and dont like B... welp more B less A"....
I'm apparently a glutton for punishment. I beat the map after two hours on my second attempt, rushing the first two strongholds (not how I want to play), and finally dropping enough AC breeder to make progress (also not how I want to play). I also died a half dozen times but by the end I didn't care. Definitely a massive, frustrating slog. All of my earlier comments apply. The Tanker unit can go away altogether and the new unit spawn rate needs to be massively reduced and all units need to adhere to the map's creeper limit. The insane amount of creeper breeder/flip breeder all over the map was unnecessary. I'd complete an area, go over to another area, come back and find that the previous area had been completely overtaken by creeper again. Maxxed out weapons and various orbitals did squat for advancement. Waiting 30 seconds to plop down a little more AC breeder was the only thing that worked past the halfway point, so I ended up playing at 4x and later 2x just to save time. Once I got AC past 800K, I finally made headway, no thanks to the gajillion maxxed out mortars and AC I was constantly firing. The first few seconds of gameplay was the only thing that was okay but otherwise was an unenjoyable map.
My final recommendation if you plan on making more difficult maps like this one is to make "Hard" and "Winnable" versions so those who hate themselves can play your harder stuff while everyone else can have a good time.
Quote from: Kaiden on May 25, 2021, 08:53:02 PM
Quote from: yewstmlab on May 25, 2021, 08:50:27 PM
Stop making maps
No, I'll make maps whether you like it or not, as long as I have some new ideas.
I haven't had a chance to play your last two maps yet due to lack of time, but I am glad that you keep making them. Some of them have been hard and some have been a slog, but overall I've really enjoyed them. Thank you for continuing to make maps! Not all will be enjoyed by everyone, but know that at least some people will enjoy them.
Enjoyed the map. some great improvements!
I think a lot of people on here are only accepting a map if they can beat it on their first attempt without much challenge. Just because people have to try a strategy or two doesn't make it a bad map. I thought the very last part of the map was a bit sloggy, could have done with just a bit less creeper spawn. I got to this point and just delayed and put it on 4 times speed so I could get some more upgrades to make it less of a slog.
Loved the fortresses. Great sense of progression. Would love if there was a bit more added to them, perhaps different approach's, or a COUPLE of hallways/walls to hide certain strategic sleeper units/creeper spawners. Stuff like that. Really enjoyed them though!
Thanks!
Althou 2nd half of map was harsh had fun :P Make more please XD
Right on! Overall, this was a fun one!
So, your earlier maps were really difficult. You're experimenting with new elements, so damn right there's going to be a lot of trail and
error! Here you've succeeded in some parts:
- Sniper upgrades - while the auto-defence doesn't get the benefits of double-shot or extra fire-rate, swapping to sniper to take out a heavier enemy coming at you takes a lot less time than before. This, combined with the really heavy enemies from the earlier map might be an idea, but in that case you'd have to scale away a lot of other things.
- The orb-shooting runners are confined to very specific areas! Earlier maps had the issue with the auto-defence being overloaded with targets, yet here things are a lot more manageable, with sniper-requiring enemies being more condensed into smaller areas.
- The yellow randomly running enemies. Annoying like bees, but satisfying to swat down!
A downside might be that towards the end it started to become difficult to keep the area you've taken. Once you've taken some flip-breeder area, you go to another front, only to lose the first one. It took quite a while to be able to conquer enough for an area not to be overwhelmed again.
For those struggling:
My standard "loadout" for these maps have devolved into aut-defence, AC-breeder, mortar & cannon area, and then just weapon efficiency. For this map the orbital rain upgrade is good to have as well, for the fortified areas. Cleared this in little over an hour, first try.
Quote from: Craftyname on May 26, 2021, 03:03:24 PM
Enjoyed the map. some great improvements!
I think a lot of people on here are only accepting a map if they can beat it on their first attempt without much challenge. Just because people have to try a strategy or two doesn't make it a bad map. I thought the very last part of the map was a bit sloggy, could have done with just a bit less creeper spawn. I got to this point and just delayed and put it on 4 times speed so I could get some more upgrades to make it less of a slog.
Loved the fortresses. Great sense of progression. Would love if there was a bit more added to them, perhaps different approach's, or a COUPLE of hallways/walls to hide certain strategic sleeper units/creeper spawners. Stuff like that. Really enjoyed them though!
Thanks!
No-one here is expecting a map without challenge. Just a map that's not unwinnable with bad RNG, or utterly tedius to the point what's in the map can't be enjoyed.
There's a lot of good things here that can make some very hard, very fun maps... But currently they need a lot of refining, mainly to do with the sheer amount of creeper beyond the creeper limit being produced.
And something needs to be done with the warpers, possibly a smaller map or a limit on the range they can warp from their spawn + limiting their numbers per spawner.
I almost wonder if most of the mobs wouldn't benifit from an agro range for them approaching you. (and a cap while their still) Would prevent overwhelming numbers, but ALSO allow you to have harder encampments deeper in, rather then the difficulty slowly decreasing as the spawns get taken out.
Quote from: Kaiden on May 25, 2021, 08:53:02 PM
Quote from: yewstmlab on May 25, 2021, 08:50:27 PM
Stop making maps
No, I'll make maps whether you like it or not, as long as I have some new ideas.
My adivce is always the same. Don't try to please everyone or the maps will all end up being generic sameness. Make what you want to play, some will like it, some won't. Find it strange that people get angry when they don't like a map, you don't have a god goven right to enjoy them all!
I found this to be a hge challenge and so enjoyed, the end was a bit too much of a slog but the flying units were very manageable.
I didnt like this map, but with a few fixes it could b fun, it has potentiale. IMO:
- Less of those random dudes. You cant get all of them and there is just too much creeper. It's almost a fulltime job to kill them, I think 50% of those would be better.
- The fortresses. Fun concept, never got to it.
- You said "run and get 4 upgrades". That is a bad way of map making as you;'re forcing me to play as you. I didnt know that you intended that, nor do I think that is a fun way. I personally like to earn it, clear an area and that is the price.
I didnt do ity your way, not I cant ever win anymore, just oo much creeper, I simply cant outgun it.
I dont per se want it easier, just more balanced. EG the first fortress, if you rotate that 180deg you can access it from the side and conquer it. get a info stash as reward and continue. I'm used to the auto-earn-point. If you're stuck, it gradually gets easier, thats a fantastic way to make it more accessible to everyone :)
These maps just aren't fun. There is only one way to play these maps, and if you don't play the exact way the author intended you lose. I'm glad some people like this style of play. Its like solving a riddle you can't see, but for what I imagine is most people, the obfuscated way the game plays simply isn't inviting.
I enjoyed this map, but the mid game was a bit tedious, I was mainly spamming ac breeder and gradually gaining ground until I had enough to be able to take the flip breeder patches one by one. Autodefence and double-sniper massively helped.