This topic is for discussion of map #1536: FPS: Minos
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=1536)
Author: Heritor
Size: 320x200
I hate to say this, but this is beyond tedious.
The creeper is set to jelly mode, so you cannot even use captured breeder to help you take other areas.
There is more upgrade points than you can possibly spend, and even at full upgrades in everything it is still a slog to make progress through the hallways.
Yeah this one is...not fun. 0/10. I normally love your maps. And is that crawler thing just unkillable?
I'm going to be honest. I got 50 minutes in of doing the same exact thing clearing corridor after corridor and... was 1/3 of the way done. It's a slog and I saw nothing intrinsically difficult about it.
jesus this is a boring slogfest. skip
This has got to be one of the most boring fps map ever made. There is nothing interesting except for the boss, and the boss is painful to kill. You just fire mortars at it for 10 minutes, and avoid the cannon turret which fires at an absurd rate. And also the map is extremely laggy, so I had to go in editor mode and get rid of the menu display script. In this map you just slowly move through corridors for a hour or more, trying to get to the totem, it's extremely repetitive.
Flat narrow corridors will never be fun. When they're so slow to clear even at max upgrades, it goes beyond that into actively sadistic.
The aim with this map was to test a more hardcore FPS experience - less focused on the normal "clear all creeper" that FPS maps traditionally have, and more "escape and survive".
I've had the idea floating about for a while (since my first FPS map) of a roaming monster that's very hard to kill, and hard to escape from - while I do feel that this accomplished that goal (and I personally had my fair share of "ohshit" moments while testing it where I'm faced with creeper in one direction, and a monster wiping out all my hard-earned AC in the other), I can get why this isn't most people's cups of tea.
Apart from that aspect, what do people think of the HUD (heads-up display) of Health, Armor, Upgrades on the left?
Quote from: heritor on May 13, 2021, 11:03:29 PMApart from that aspect, what do people think of the HUD (heads-up display) of Health, Armor, Upgrades on the left?
That aspect was an improvement that I would like to see in future maps.
Quote from: Malignantmind on May 13, 2021, 11:12:53 PM
Quote from: heritor on May 13, 2021, 11:03:29 PMApart from that aspect, what do people think of the HUD (heads-up display) of Health, Armor, Upgrades on the left?
That aspect was an improvement that I would like to see in future maps.
I've got to rework the code for it (turns out the function to add/change names on the menu can be a large performance hit) but it's something I'll be including going forward for sure. I'll probably need to tinker with the Armor aspect a bit, since right now it's just an extra disposable pool of health instead of the actual damage-reducing armor I'd wanted it to be originally.
Quote from: heritor on May 13, 2021, 11:03:29 PM
The aim with this map was to test a more hardcore FPS experience - less focused on the normal "clear all creeper" that FPS maps traditionally have, and more "escape and survive".
I've had the idea floating about for a while (since my first FPS map) of a roaming monster that's very hard to kill, and hard to escape from - while I do feel that this accomplished that goal (and I personally had my fair share of "ohshit" moments while testing it where I'm faced with creeper in one direction, and a monster wiping out all my hard-earned AC in the other), I can get why this isn't most people's cups of tea.
To be honest, I really liked the Minotaur.
Had fun playing pacman with it, and had several fun moments of getting cornered and having to dash past it.
It was the slow slog through creep jello that spoilt the map for me.
I restarted the map and edited the creep flow rate to normal.
That helped to some degree, in that once you controlled the majority of an area the AC would help you.
But given the restriction in fluid flow (walls + gaps), this did less than I expected to help with the tedium.
I restarted again and increased the maximum upgrades allowed (i.e. mainly the 25 in weapon effect to 50).
And then increased the upgrade points given by 5 of the caches in hard to reach spots to 3. (I.e. 10 extra points)
This helped a lot along with the more fluid creep / AC.
There was still a lot of 'quite hall clearing without being threatened'.
Didn't get a chance to test this, but my suggestion here would be:
Buff the minotaur in close combat.
Add additional patrol units - Watchers.
They don't have weapons, and are relatively weak.
Instead, if they spot you, they attempt to get close to you and start a timer.
Once the timer is done, if they are still alive, and are still close enough to you, the watcher dies but teleports the Minotaur to that position.
(I.e. they summon the minotaur to you.)
They should be quick and easy to deal with as long as you are paying attention.
Have some base stations that slowly respawn these watchers over time. You can destroy the base stations.
Destroying all base stations weakens the minotaur (to what it is now, assuming it is buffed.)
I can't play this :-\ my computer can't run it. Too much lag :-[
Another suggestion to make this better is a height limit for creeper, instead of the global generation limit. Because for each bit of land you clear, the remaining creeper columns become higher and higher and the mortar is really crippled if you cant hit the top of the creeper. The creeper should not exceed the height of the ceiling. The creeper has become absolutely massive after I cleared almost 2/3rds of the map (see the attachment). When I figured out the long corridor to the totem, I literally pointed my mortar at it, tabbed out and watched a youtube video while it did its thing.
I really liked this concept, you're onto something here, but it could use some sort of checkpoint system, as you capture sections of the maze. If there was some way to activate drains in those captured areas that will get rid of both C and AC (maybe a power that lets you drop -1000 terrain or something?), it would help the performance of the map, as well as maybe help visibility of the map sections as they're cleared.
Speaking of map visibility, I got hopelessly lost at one point and just couldn't figure out how to get to the final emitter - literally spent hours (over multiple plays) stubbornly trying to get un-lost.
You and the other folks coding this FPS stuff are on the verge of creating your own genre here, and I'm excited to see where it leads.
The HUD had some potential use (though not if it hits performance), The Creeper amount was beyond tedious,.
Quote from: heritor on May 13, 2021, 11:03:29 PM
The aim with this map was to test a more hardcore FPS experience - less focused on the normal "clear all creeper" that FPS maps traditionally have, and more "escape and survive".
I've had the idea floating about for a while (since my first FPS map) of a roaming monster that's very hard to kill, and hard to escape from - while I do feel that this accomplished that goal (and I personally had my fair share of "ohshit" moments while testing it where I'm faced with creeper in one direction, and a monster wiping out all my hard-earned AC in the other), I can get why this isn't most people's cups of tea.
I think you almost got that, however in my playthrough I only had a few actual encounters with the Minotaur since it went off to a corridor after 25-35 min and just patrolled it. The encounters were hairy though. Maybe have the sleeper on its top have a much higher bank and when it is full have it err towards patrolling AC and when it needs recharging, patrol creeper.
How most players will play this map:
15 minutes: "Still at the start and struggling. Will wait for a bit here until more upgrade points become available. Who was dumb enough to install flip breeder as a floor decoration in a research facility?"
1 hour: "Still at the start but have mostly pushed the visible creeper back. Sort of. Running at 2x speed has saved my sanity."
2 hours: "Why are there so many InfoCaches? I've already maxxed out all possible upgrades and now have 20 extra points that I can't spend on anything."
3 hours: "Mutters something rude under the breath about a dumb 2 million creeper cap which has not been dented yet and stares down yet another dull, uninteresting, and boring hallway filled with creeper."
3.5 hours: "Hates roofs, weird half-height walls, and FPS creeper mazes. Finally finds the elusive path to the staircase that leads to the totem. Also have come up with at least a half-dozen alternate names for the map like 'Lame-os' and 'Me-nuts'."
4 hours: "4x speed."
5 hours: "Finally blows up whatever that thing was and completes the map. Also takes the extra 5 seconds to finish wiping out the creeper so no one in the future who finds this world has to do that again. Also suddenly annoyed there wasn't a reclaim objective."
When making maps, an average playtime of 30 minutes at 1x speed is the sweet spot for map completion of all objectives. When mapmakers make maps that go over that, players will start disliking the map. More time required = more dislike. Having to use 2x or 4x just to make progress in the player's lifetime also increases dislike. However, maps that take less than 30 minutes cause players to find a map to be "too easy" though. So there is a balance to be achieved. Just something to keep in mind: Don't waste people's time with 5 hour slog maps.
This map was exceptionally dull and uninteresting. The Minotaur wasn't ever any significant threat (it managed to get itself stuck in a corridor early on) and the hallways were just one creeper-filled hallway after another with no risk of losing. The only reason to play this map is if all the other FPS maps have been played. Even then, everyone is better off replaying all the other FPS maps.
There's some pretty bad RNG at the start. There are two possible sleeper units that can sit on top of the Minotaur: One that requires line of sight (LOS) and shoots creeper at the player at a very rapid rate and one that launches bubbles in the air that can be defended against using auto-defense. If it builds the LOS unit at the beginning, then the player is going to be hosed down with creeper very quickly when it comes into view. If it builds the other one and the player has auto-defense, then it's not really a threat unless the player does something stupid like blow up that sleeper unit. And the player doesn't get to know which one was chosen until about 10 minutes into the playthrough when it suddenly comes into view for the first time. Beyond not being able to continue to upgrade the weapon firing rate indefinitely, the RNG-chosen mobile sleeper unit is probably the second worst aspect of this map.
Exiting this map also takes several minutes. Not sure what's going on with that but I've only had that happen once before when I built 5,000 units on a map when I once got bored with someone's ultra-cheeseable hold objective. It might be related to the menu HUD, which flickers constantly.
Remind me to never let Heritor design a research facility in real life.
Quote from: CS Z on June 03, 2021, 09:42:29 PM
Remind me to never let Heritor design a research facility in real life.
To be fair, the only research facility I'd ever design in real life would be a villain's lair, so in that respect my skills would be valued.
Really benefit if we had a map of this at this point.
So I have been going through the FPS levels the last month or so (off and on). I actually thought that the level was mostly fun. I agree limiting the creeper would have helped. Also being able to see the map instead of the ceiling would also help. The mini map even at its largest is hard to see. And from what I could see, once sections are covered by anti-creeper, you can't see the walls. Also I like killing stuff, but not having them perm death or stun so you can get by them, it makes it overly difficult. I was going to try to get all the items but gave up because I couldn't get pass one of the enemies and died. Then couldn't even figure out how to get back to where I was.
Also to help with the overwhelming creeper, having equal creeper and AC ground breeders would have helped. It would keep the creeper from re-taking areas already converted.
Overall, I like the level!
(I realize this is an old thread, but I'm still issuing a severe warning for people in my position - thinking it can't be
that bad)
It
is that bad, and worse.
- Do you want to spend 3-5 IRL hours navigating a janky maze where barely 60% of the walls on the mini map are visible?
- Have you ever wanted to stare down dozens 5ft wide hallways, while your PC fans scream for help, and the FPS drops to single digits?
- Can't find a scratch for that good 'ol "Half the progress I just made on the other side of the map just got f***ed by the slowest tank in the universe"-itch?
- Ever get the sinking sensation that you simply have too much time to spare?
WELL GEE GOLLY, THEN THIS MAP IS FOR YOU!Skip this map. It's not worth the play. It's like the "Tedious"-tag was made specially for this map.
I get what the map creator was trying to achieve - Minotaur in The Maze - but the game design of this map is awful. Swing & miss.
(No criticism directed at the map maker personally. It's just that this particular map was categorically
bad.)
Tip (if you decide to play it anyways): Keep the "regular" FPS Upgrade-tab open at all times. That custom HUD panel is flickering constantly, and will make your FPS drop significantly.