This topic is for discussion of map #870: Play As Creeper is back!
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=870)
Author: WithersChat
Size: 256x160
I'm missing something here and I don't know what!
I have tried laying every item at my disposal just one at a time yet all that happens when the map starts is that the initial creeper pile just melts like ice cream and nothing happens. What am I doing wrong!
From my understanding you have power for two units. The power you need is ERN. You have two and only two - so you can power either:
one emitter and one stash or
one stash and one crimsonator or
one emitter and one crimsonator or
two emmitter...
and so on,
Mesh is painted like units, so it won't draw mesh when you draw a diagonal line
new units must be sunk in creeper to start work
So that makes kind of sense - but the inference is that you need to "apply" the ERN to the already existing emitter?
On PAC maps in CW3 the first emitter is already powered - so is this different? Does the first emitter not have any power automatically?
If I need to apply an ERN to the first emitter then this is what I don't get - how do I do that?
Quote from: PaulG on February 25, 2021, 05:05:56 PM
So that makes kind of sense - but the inference is that you need to "apply" the ERN to the already existing emitter?
On PAC maps in CW3 the first emitter is already powered - so is this different? Does the first emitter not have any power automatically?
If I need to apply an ERN to the first emitter then this is what I don't get - how do I do that?
No. ERNs are used to build units. however if you build a unit and don't have any ern power, all units will die except for the bases until you don't have negative ern power
I do have ERN power.
I start with 2, I build an emitter - I still have 2 but nothing happens?
You got the part that new units have to be covered with creeper (for the exact values, look at A.D.A)?
If you build a 3rd unit, you have to destroy one of the first two
Greetings from The Shire!
Dealing with the same thing. I understand how it all works, but I can't seem to get past the first couple units with the two ern power I start with. Any suggestions on how to just move past that first corner?
Its literally impossible. You cant get out of the starting corner cause there are too many defenses.
I think the biggest problem this map has is just the amount of choices. Don't get me wrong, I think the potential variety is really cool, and that PAC in CW4 has a lot of potential, but I don't think it makes much sense for the tutorial level to rely on knowing exactly what units are best in which situations. For people who have never played before (so, pretty much everyone) the only option left is to try every combination of units until you find what works. That's both a critique and the best advice I can give to people playing this unsure of what to do.
Also, the mesh. I'm not sure why you're penalized for using the 3x3 mesh. It's presented as a convenience method, but in the end it's almost always better to just use the 1x1 mesh, which is a little frustrating. Maybe a better solution would be to have the 3x3 option place the single cell mesh in a square? Some performance optimizations might be needed for that though, because man that mesh lags the game when you queue a lot, and it's almost impossible to cancel all the orders.
Overall, though, I'm looking forward to seeing how the next PAC levels go. Lots of cool concepts in here. Keep up the good work!
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
Quote from: flamewolf393 on February 25, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Its literally impossible. You cant get out of the starting corner cause there are too many defenses.
So If you want to get started the way i got out of the corner was an emitter and a crimson, you must make sure the crimson is on the very corner of the emitter or else its uneffective to get the most crimson creeper, i wont go any further as the achievement of beating this level is rediculously satisfying
definitely focus on the big "pot holes" of the map as thats where youll make the most creeper with the stash and very important is to focus on the ERM enhanced defenses and never go negative ERM
Quote from: PaulG on February 26, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
You need to be on version 1.3.
Quote from: PaulG on February 26, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
The update to GOG was pushed yesterday. I'm not sure how GOG handles updates, though.
Ok, so I see that this map may be harder than it feeled when I made it. Coming with a few tips. (More detailed guide coming soon)
But for now...
1) This is NOT CW3, so, don't try to play it like CW3 PAC. Mesh is more of a precision tool than something you want to paint everywhere. It allows to push in the direction you want to.
2) Crimson is strong. Really.
3) Don't underestimate lures. Moreover, you can activate them remotely wih spores and blobs (assuming you manage to land a spore or blob)
4) Blobs go in straight lines. The can be used to destroy ERNed units, if they're not well enough defended with snipers. Gotta aim well tho.
4.5) The same applies with spores. If there aren't enough missiles, you can destroy ERNed units you can't reach with conventional ways.
5) ERN portal and Factory are both prime targets. If you destroy the ERN portal, you get 3 ERNs. If you destroy the factory, all shields, missiles and snipers are down.
Quote from: Metatroful on February 26, 2021, 11:24:18 AM
Quote from: flamewolf393 on February 25, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Its literally impossible. You cant get out of the starting corner cause there are too many defenses.
So If you want to get started the way i got out of the corner was an emitter and a crimson, you must make sure the crimson is on the very corner of the emitter or else its uneffective to get the most crimson creeper
Ive tried that, it didnt help. Ive tried literally every combination of building and none of them can get past the defenses covering that corner.
Quote from: WithersChat on February 26, 2021, 12:05:21 PM
Ok, so I see that this map may be harder than it feeled when I made it. Coming with a few tips. (More detailed guide coming soon)
But for now...
1) This is NOT CW3, so, don't try to play it like CW3 PAC. Mesh is more of a precision tool than something you want to paint everywhere. It allows to push in the direction you want to.
2) Crimson is strong. Really.
3) Don't underestimate lures. Moreover, you can activate them remotely wih spores and blobs (assuming you manage to land a spore or blob)
4) Blobs go in straight lines. The can be used to destroy ERNed units, if they're not well enough defended with snipers. Gotta aim well tho.
4.5) The same applies with spores. If there aren't enough missiles, you can destroy ERNed units you can't reach with conventional ways.
5) ERN portal and Factory are both prime targets. If you destroy the ERN portal, you get 3 ERNs. If you destroy the factory, all shields, missiles and snipers are down.
None of this helps getting out of the starting corner. Ive tried literally every combination of building and none of it works. Theres just too many defenses there. Two emitters just gets shot up, emitter + crimson still just gets shot up, the sniper and missile launcher prevents anything from the launcher working. The only thing that comes close to working is two launchers, which lets one thing get past, but then you dont have enough creeper left to put an emitter back down.
I finally did it!! My method was to pair up an emitter and a stash. I'd put the stash next to the emitter, mesh out where I wanted to go next, then when the stash emptied I'd pause, kill the emitter, then place it where I wanted to go. Managed to use that method to get past the shields, then worked back and took out the supply line, netting another ERN. Was a bit of a slog from there, and I had to re-start a couple times, but I was able to finish it!
Quote from: flamewolf393 on February 25, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Its literally impossible. You cant get out of the starting corner cause there are too many defenses.
It's not. How do you think the author beat and uploaded the map?
So I finally figured it out. Its not about any two buildings, you just cant stay where you start. You have to maneuver around so only one side of the defenses can reach you. Its really really annoying to get started, but finally did it.
Im now about 4 hours into the level and have 2/3 of the map. Its a major moment every time I make a little bit of progress, cause each and every foot of terrain is very hard won.
I got half way through the map. Literally split the map in half. Stuck there.
It's really not a problem to get out of the corner. Like others have said, just use your starting emitter and a crimson in the corner to start, the enemy weapons won't be able to deal with the crimson creeper.
I kind of would like it if there were more opportunities to use Launchers after the first bit. As it is, everything from that big line of cannons down the right center of the map is very thoroughly protected with missiles and snipers that there isn't really a way to deal with, short of destroying or de-supplying the entire area they are in. At which point... well, at that point you've already killed everything that your launchers would have been wanted for anyways.
Maybe if the Factory was placed somewhere that you could actually kill it before you're about to win anyways? Though that would kind of still be an auto-win condition, since after that you could just spam spores at everything and there would be no challenge left. So maybe not that.
Tips for players:
-Mesh will not actually absorb and hold creeper (turn blue and start directing the creeper on top of it) unless it is connected to other blue mesh. Draw lines of mesh from your emitters, not just in the path you want it to go. If it's not connected to an emitter, it's useless.
-Mesh often seems to fail to connect to other mesh diagonally. Make sure you have a good, properly connected line of mesh in place.
-Put down mesh from your emitters into the place you are about to put a stash, and let it turn blue before you actually place the stash. The stash will build up much faster while it is connected to emitters via mesh, and it doesn't count unless the mesh is already there before you place the stash because you can't build mesh under things. Or at least, I assume that's why you can't connect the stash after building it. I could be wrong, which is why I recommend waiting until the mesh turns blue just in case.
-Multiple lines of mesh, partly separated make for a better attack vector than a single line of mesh. One line will focus your attack, but will also draw the fire of all enemy turrets. Two or three will allow you to direct and focus your attack while still splitting enemy fire.
These ended up all being about mesh use to some degree or another, lol.
Quote from: Karsten75 on February 26, 2021, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: PaulG on February 26, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
The update to GOG was pushed yesterday. I'm not sure how GOG handles updates, though.
Interesting. I did search their website and it says that updates are handled automatically, but having just tried again mine is still on 1.0.0. I've emailed them
Quote from: Qople on February 26, 2021, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: PaulG on February 26, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
You need to be on version 1.3.
Ah! That could explain a lot!
Quote from: PaulG on February 27, 2021, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: Karsten75 on February 26, 2021, 11:51:46 AM
Quote from: PaulG on February 26, 2021, 11:19:38 AM
Does CW4 have to be on a later version for this map to work properly?
I bought it from GOG and it is showing as v 1.0.0
The update to GOG was pushed yesterday. I'm not sure how GOG handles updates, though.
Interesting. I did search their website and it says that updates are handled automatically, but having just tried again mine is still on 1.0.0. I've emailed them
How it works: If you are on GOG Galaxy, the update is automatic. If you have the installer, then GOG admin have to build a new installer and you have to run it.
Quote from: flamewolf393 on February 25, 2021, 11:57:05 PM
Its literally impossible. You cant get out of the starting corner cause there are too many defenses.
If you build a crimonsonator and some mesh from the corner to the group of defenses, it is an easy push out of the corner. The rest is a slog though.
I loved the PAC maps in CW3 and hope you keep making more of these in CW4. This one was pretty tough and I haven't beaten it yet. Perhaps some of the other suggestions might help. Regardless, I really hope more of these continue to come.
it took awhile with a couple of retreats/regroupings & head scratchings, but after 16+ hours (at 4x speed) I covered everything. it was a thrill to break that last connection between the command base and factory. once that is done, the earn portal gets overwhelmed quickly and that's all she wrote
the key I found was to keep the 2 holes on the SE side full of Creep and have a stash going all the time in one of them (not two, they seem to interfere with each other)
using combos of 3 or 4 launchers helped. there might be an easier way, but I'm a plodder; it took me 4 skimmers
working together to knock out the shield on the center ridge
I thoroughly enjoyed this map and look forward for your next one Withers. As for a hint : Figuring out the mechanics of each tool and pairing them to make effective pushes, that is the name of the game here. You can attack anywhere with success but some places are just weaker. My personal preference is to make waves with out stashes. I find that stash with mesh dont work very well if they take damage. GL
Just beat it after a long stalemate with me on about a third of the map. About 7 or so ERNs and I had ran out of things I could kill with spores. Then I realized that there's not really any need to hold ground, so I started pushing VERY aggressively with nothing but emitters/mesh and sometimes a crimson to help. About 6 hours on the in-game timer, but it was almost entirely on 4x speed.
Great map, some polish may be required here and there but I enjoyed myself!
I´m on the steam version and it just crashes for me. I don´t know what´s the problem, I read something about updates 1.0.0 and 1.3
and something about "GOG" (no Idea what that is)
Can someone tell me how to have it not crash after 10 seconds into the game?
:/
pls help
I don´t know how to switch update versions on steam if that´s what I gotta do
I'm loving this, but wow what a slow process! I am sure there are better ways to do it--I saw one who did it in under 10 minutes I think? (What in the world?!) I'm 9.5 hours in on it so far and I think I am halfway through the map........ I hope to find some faster ways to do it. And I am THANKFUL for the ability to save it.
Quote from: DS3K on March 10, 2021, 01:26:15 PM
I´m on the steam version and it just crashes for me. I don´t know what´s the problem, I read something about updates 1.0.0 and 1.3
and something about "GOG" (no Idea what that is)
Can someone tell me how to have it not crash after 10 seconds into the game?
:/
pls help
I don´t know how to switch update versions on steam if that´s what I gotta do
Don't worry about GOG, it's another way to buy the game. You don't need to switch update version unless you disbled auto update somewhere. Note that this map only works on (currently) latest version, which is 1.3. You can click that little gear symbol on the bottom left of the game banner, open "properties" tab, and go in "update" tab. There is the auto-update option here.
Quote from: dgacen on March 10, 2021, 02:10:21 PM
I'm loving this, but wow what a slow process! I am sure there are better ways to do it--I saw one who did it in under 10 minutes I think? (What in the world?!) I'm 9.5 hours in on it so far and I think I am halfway through the map........ I hope to find some faster ways to do it. And I am THANKFUL for the ability to save it.
Remember, you don't need to keep all the ground you already deleted covered. Your goal is the lab, nothing else actually. And don't underestimate Crimson.
Quote from: WithersChat on March 11, 2021, 09:59:45 AM
Quote from: DS3K on March 10, 2021, 01:26:15 PM
I´m on the steam version and it just crashes for me. I don´t know what´s the problem, I read something about updates 1.0.0 and 1.3
and something about "GOG" (no Idea what that is)
Can someone tell me how to have it not crash after 10 seconds into the game?
:/
pls help
I don´t know how to switch update versions on steam if that´s what I gotta do
Don't worry about GOG, it's another way to buy the game. You don't need to switch update version unless you disbled auto update somewhere. Note that this map only works on (currently) latest version, which is 1.3. You can click that little gear symbol on the bottom left of the game banner, open "properties" tab, and go in "update" tab. There is the auto-update option here.
My steam version for CW4 is "1.3.6" It seems I am on a too current version for this :/
What do I do now? lol
Edit: I played for 3 mins and it didn´t crash yet. Maybe this version is new and now it works... :D
phew. after 4 hours of false starts, i finally got out of the corner. i'm pretty sure by luck, as the 2 other times i tried the maneuver that got me out, i didn't score a mortar kill... got stuck a few other places, but managed to beat that run in "only" 2 hours...
very nice to see PAC back, but your idea of "not too hard" and mine are... significantly different.
suggestion, if you're open to those.
allow mesh that isn't grown to actively pull from fully built and active mesh adjacent to them. possibly penalize this pull when going uphill. very frustrating to have mesh segments literally surrounded by fully grown mesh but can't build, and thus can't get to the 2 threshold i need to build the next emitter.
Quote from: jcheung on March 12, 2021, 07:28:38 AM
phew. after 4 hours of false starts, i finally got out of the corner. i'm pretty sure by luck, as the 2 other times i tried the maneuver that got me out, i didn't score a mortar kill... got stuck a few other places, but managed to beat that run in "only" 2 hours...
very nice to see PAC back, but your idea of "not too hard" and mine are... significantly different.
suggestion, if you're open to those.
allow mesh that isn't grown to actively pull from fully built and active mesh adjacent to them. possibly penalize this pull when going uphill. very frustrating to have mesh segments literally surrounded by fully grown mesh but can't build, and thus can't get to the 2 threshold i need to build the next emitter.
I realized that it was much harder than i expected it when I released it and saw all comments, tags and discord messages... Yeah, next time I won't give any difficulty idea, I'm not good at estimating this :D
For the suggestion, I'm always open to them. For this mesh issue... I see what you mean,
and it would be an actual code nightmare to do this. I changed the way you place mesh, however, so in my next map you have an actual brush, like the Terraform one. This becomes much more convenient to use. I also reduced the virtual mesh height (what makes Creeper flow more on mesh), so this problem should be less likely to happen too. However, the solution you're proposing is
extremely hard to code would allow to keep moving on places where you shouldn't be able to. Im checking this forum page quite often, so you can reply here and I'll see it probably very soon.
i certainly enjoyed the challenge, lol.
i guess if you can't do an active pull (and now that i've had a nap, i've seen some of the problems) maybe you can set it so that entities absorb creep per cell? possibly increase the full amount that's needed if you don't have a proper depth
and since there's no real way to push other than building mesh and hoping the creep overflows in the direction you want it to, maybe we can get a building that can make a "leak" in the mesh net?....preferably with like... half ERN cost?
if you're willing to consider lower ERN cost, then i'd like to ask if you can make the mortar decoys cheaper too :D
ran through it another time with everything i had learned, i have to revise my opinion a little on the difficulty. once you break out of the corner, there's only one area that really was a slog, and that's probably because i was missing something.
Just wanted to say I ended up really enjoying the map. Took me 5 restarts to figure it out, but it gave me a great deal of satisfaction to beat it. Will say I basically just spammed stashes with crimson in front of them, once I broke the centre line the ai's defence started to crumble completely. Thanks for the map.
Wow. What a map. Took me 3 retries and time in the end a bit over 10 hours and 3 sittings. Had some trouble finding tactic, but once I did it was quite smooth, just time consuming.
Battle report with my tactic:
Spoiler
Stashes are key. When you only have two ERNS total, I did a stash into crimson trick (destroy the Stash when it detonates and build crimson in the pile) which got me to my first ERN. Once I had an extra ERN I could have both Stash and Crimson at once. Sweet. Next I learned not to go overboard with mesh, but use it to direct the flow. I did not find myself using very many Emitters (mostly to stabilize my Stashes), but the next key is how was to pair up Stashes. At first with 2 but once I had 3 going it was firing like some kind of piston engine pulsing out bursts with creeper which was when I really started making some progress. It was quite a sight to behold. By then I had grabbed 5 ERN's for a total of 7 with which I could maintain 1 emitter, 4 stashes and 2 crimson, sometimes switching a into a emitter to stabilize.
So I started working my way towards the ERN-portal, figuring that if I could grab those it would be all downhill after. First up, the defence line before the ERN-portal hill was a bit of a nut to crack, i situated my stashes in the cauldron before and pathed the creeper with mesh into crimson, and eventually it broke. I had some problem with that ERN-powered cannon, but it eventually yielded. The hill up to the portal was also interesting, I worked my way up and hit quite the resistance, barely cresting the layer with the first sniper, but once that one was down I saw an interesting angle to use some launchers with blobs to snipe the ERN-powered missile launcher and eventually even the ERN-portal itself that gave me sooo many ERNS. I spewed out them in stashes and eventually the map just fell over and I only noticed the Rift Lab falling due to the part of the map I was looking at losing power all of a sudden. I think I really reached some kind of exponential growth with the stashes!
One final note on the Stashes, if using them make sure to paint with mesh under before building them to have an easier time directing creeper into them. Oh, and remember. when in doubt, you probably need crimson.
Thank you for these hours of entertainment map maker!
Very tough map to have the player nerfed a lot and rely on erns and that units are 5x5 in size prevents placement in different areas. Would prefer units to be 3x3 like default emitters.
Endless and incredibly boring slog of a map. No real challenge for anyone who understands how creep and crimson works. Just takes ages to crawl over the map.
Quote from: legobil on March 23, 2021, 03:58:37 PM
Battle report with my tactic:
Stashes are key.
I don't know if this is true! I haven't used it even once. I finished the map on the first try, with 5 hours of play, in 4x, I used only 11ERNs, to be honest I found the map to be quite easy... the hard thing is to understand the mechanics... I think this is my first map of this type .
However I found your ideas for battles very interesting ... I felt like playing this map again, because now I know the mechanics, I already have a strategy and I want to test some ideas you gave me .... I will definitely reduce that time in much