This topic is for discussion of map #8408: Play as Sleeper V2
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=8408)
Author: piggood
Size: 200x120
Desc:
A Much Improved version of the game mode shown in map 8361, made by WithersChat and piggood (Thanks to Discord) New things: 1) A cool building UI (Made by piggood) 2) A new forge tab (Made by piggood)(OhWaitWhat) 3) Actual forge-like upgrades (Made by piggood and WithersChat)(OHWAITWHAT) 4) Unit selection and controlled move (Made by WithersChat) (OhWaitWhat) 5) A Disruptor Beam, on human side (Made by WithersChat) (OhNo) Sleeper units from the Sleeper template PAC parts from the PAC template Have fun! #PAS
This map is finally uploaded, after [INT] (too many :))) hours of work. Tell us what you think of it here.
A lot of work obviously went into it!
But for me, all that work still didn't feel like a great thing to play :( I don't feel like you have enough control to make things strategic? Like, in the normal PAC, you can choose which emitters are producing and how much, you can aim the spores, etc. Even when it gets sloggy, there's still an intentionality to it. Whereas here, you have individual collectors not doing all that much, you have Sleeper blasters and mortars whose ranges and mechanics always feel a little unclear to me? and you have Terps that just sort of do whatever they want. And of course, you can't aim the spores or the strafers. The upgrade is nice, but even then, you don't really feel those upgrades in all the morass of.... stuff, for lack of a better word.
Like, comparing it to vanilla and 'vanilla' PAC.
In the base game, you have a lot of options, but those options are clearly defined and give good feedback. You know what a Blaster is, you know what it does and how well, your numbers are all displayed in front of you, so on and so forth, and you have good control over what your units are doing.
In the PAC mode, you have obviously less control, Creeper doing as it pleases. Still, I feel like you get a good understanding of what your options are doing? Like, you might not be able to move the Creeper wherever you want, but you can pretty easily tell that if you put Creeper somewhere, it's going to spread out. Digitalis places where you want it, spores fire where you want it, etc, etc. There are less options, but they feel responsive.
In this game, I found myself spamming Collectors and occasionally spamming Terps. There wasn't really any thought to it, because I couldn't really understand the repercussions of my actions well enough to plan. Collectors add creeper, but how much isn't clear. Blasters and mortars shoot, but I never wrapped my head around how far they shoot or when they decide to shoot. Again, strafers and mortars fire wherever, and Terps just do whatever the heck they want! (Including exploding randomly, for some reason?)
Quote from: Twi on May 15, 2020, 01:02:32 PM
A lot of work obviously went into it!
But for me, all that work still didn't feel like a great thing to play :( I don't feel like you have enough control to make things strategic? Like, in the normal PAC, you can choose which emitters are producing and how much, you can aim the spores, etc. Even when it gets sloggy, there's still an intentionality to it. Whereas here, you have individual collectors not doing all that much, you have Sleeper blasters and mortars whose ranges and mechanics always feel a little unclear to me? and you have Terps that just sort of do whatever they want. And of course, you can't aim the spores or the strafers. The upgrade is nice, but even then, you don't really feel those upgrades in all the morass of.... stuff, for lack of a better word.
Like, comparing it to vanilla and 'vanilla' PAC.
In the base game, you have a lot of options, but those options are clearly defined and give good feedback. You know what a Blaster is, you know what it does and how well, your numbers are all displayed in front of you, so on and so forth, and you have good control over what your units are doing.
In the PAC mode, you have obviously less control, Creeper doing as it pleases. Still, I feel like you get a good understanding of what your options are doing? Like, you might not be able to move the Creeper wherever you want, but you can pretty easily tell that if you put Creeper somewhere, it's going to spread out. Digitalis places where you want it, spores fire where you want it, etc, etc. There are less options, but they feel responsive.
In this game, I found myself spamming Collectors and occasionally spamming Terps. There wasn't really any thought to it, because I couldn't really understand the repercussions of my actions well enough to plan. Collectors add creeper, but how much isn't clear. Blasters and mortars shoot, but I never wrapped my head around how far they shoot or when they decide to shoot. Again, strafers and mortars fire wherever, and Terps just do whatever the heck they want! (Including exploding randomly, for some reason?)
Ok...
Collectors add 5 creeper twice a second, ore mines add 13 or 15 instead (stronger)
Blasters and mortars shoot in the displayed range, but 1) Blasters can't shoot higher than themselves, and 2) They need some Creeper under them to shoot.
Terps are just bugged (the original sleeper terps were, so...), but when you build them, they have some ammo, and explode when it's empty.
I liked it! Thanks for letting us know what the collectors and mines do as I too felt like collectors + terps was the only thing effective. I found that the strafers didn't do enough damage to take out a relay that had level 1 AC underneath. I am looking forward to your next one!
I give up, I have no idea how to get off the starting rock. The weapons you are allowed to build don't have the range, and you don't have the resources to make improvements. What's the trick?
Edit - doh, I figured it out.
2nd edit - even using terps and collectors, I can't get off the rock. Too much anti creeper and any time I make a little progress that damned cannon goes off and wipes me back to ground zero. There's some magic I haven't figured out yet..
3rd edit - didn't realize you could build anywhere there is digitalis.
ok.... so I didn't give up. But some basic instruction would have saved me a lot of time.
Great map!
A bit laggy towards the end, could be just my laptop, lol
Quote from: rotloan on May 16, 2020, 02:41:27 AM
Great map!
A bit laggy towards the end, could be just my laptop, lol
I playtested on a laptop, and this map IS laggy for slower computers (or if you cover the whole claimed land with collectors).
There was actually even more lag before, but optimization is certainly still possible.
I like this map, played the previous one and feel improvement with some comments
- you cant move units "slightly"(such as overlapping their current position), feels like a script thing and not a real concern.
- I would like control over digitalis, maybe if you could make it possible to order the terps to build digitalis where you want in a future map.
- I felt that beam was a bit OP imo,fired just a little too often, maybe if the power(reactors + collectors) were more spaced out instead of a single reactor farm next to the CN, so that the beam slowed due to slight energy stall over time, but this is all down to personal preference.
sorry for the dodgy punctuation but it's the middle of the night and i just struggled to see the html properly(need new glasses ::)).
I think you have done well with this. Got a bit easier when I realised the terps put down digitalis and you can move units.
I have no idea what the ore mine is for though and why does the terp fire on digitalis that is already made. Deffo needs starting instructions/info.
This map is much better than your previous play as sleeper map. I like the new buttons for selecting different sleeper buildings, and the ability to do things while the game is paused. Clearly, you put a lot of effort into this. Far more effort than I've ever put into any of my maps. I respect that. I still have some thoughts on it though, including some (hopefully constructive) criticism.
1. There doesn't seem to be a way to see the intro again. Normally there's an "archived transmissions" button next to the command center buttons, but since you're not using command centers in this mode, you can't access that button. Not a huge deal, since the controls are intuitive, but it does mean that my criticisms about the intro might be wrong. If so, you can disregard them.
2. The intro should mention that you can use sleeper terps to build in the void. This is a bit counter-intuitive, since the normal sleeper cannot build stuff in the void (although it can put digitalis in the void with terps,) and it seems crucial to victory.
3. The intro should mention that you can build sleeper collectors right next to each other like they're reactors and they'll all produce just as much creeper as they would if you spaced them out. (This is something the normal sleeper can do, but most sleeper maps don't bother to mention it since it's not like the player can take advantage of it.)
4. Sleeper strafers don't leave any creeper behind when they attack (this was also the case on your previous play as sleeper map.) As a result, they only seem good for using up beam energy and killing collectors and relays (and maybe reactors.) Maybe this is intentional? Maybe we're supposed to use sleeper strafers to waste beam energy, and use spores to do the damage and flood the enemy with creeper? But this isn't the way sleeper strafers usually work.
5. It would be nice if sleeper shields could land on ground that isn't covered in creeper. As far as I can tell, sleeper shields are supposed to lead the charge, pulling the creeper forward and protecting more fragile sleeper units. They can't really pull the creeper forward if they can't land in front of it.
6. It's not really clear how the disruptor beam's targeting works. (I still like the disruptor beam.) Does it try to hit as many sleeper units as possible with each shot? Does it target a random sleeper unit? Does it target the deepest creeper tile on the map? Does it try to destroy as much creeper as possible with each shot? It feels like it's one of those, but for all I know it could be something else.
7. Once again, the enemy A.I. just sits back and waits for its demise. Maybe it could slowly build berthas over time and put them on auto target. (Actually, I don't know if it's possible to use CRPL to put berthas on auto target.) Or maybe it could get some anti-creeper emitters that get stronger over time, but take damage from creeper.
Quote from: Running Rat on May 29, 2020, 02:35:53 PM
This map is much better than your previous play as sleeper map. I like the new buttons for selecting different sleeper buildings, and the ability to do things while the game is paused. Clearly, you put a lot of effort into this. Far more effort than I've ever put into any of my maps. I respect that. I still have some thoughts on it though, including some (hopefully constructive) criticism.
1. There doesn't seem to be a way to see the intro again. Normally there's an "archived transmissions" button next to the command center buttons, but since you're not using command centers in this mode, you can't access that button. Not a huge deal, since the controls are intuitive, but it does mean that my criticisms about the intro might be wrong. If so, you can disregard them.
2. The intro should mention that you can use sleeper terps to build in the void. This is a bit counter-intuitive, since the normal sleeper cannot build stuff in the void (although it can put digitalis in the void with terps,) and it seems crucial to victory.
3. The intro should mention that you can build sleeper collectors right next to each other like they're reactors and they'll all produce just as much creeper as they would if you spaced them out. (This is something the normal sleeper can do, but most sleeper maps don't bother to mention it since it's not like the player can take advantage of it.)
4. Sleeper strafers don't leave any creeper behind when they attack (this was also the case on your previous play as sleeper map.) As a result, they only seem good for using up beam energy and killing collectors and relays (and maybe reactors.) Maybe this is intentional? Maybe we're supposed to use sleeper strafers to waste beam energy, and use spores to do the damage and flood the enemy with creeper? But this isn't the way sleeper strafers usually work.
5. It would be nice if sleeper shields could land on ground that isn't covered in creeper. As far as I can tell, sleeper shields are supposed to lead the charge, pulling the creeper forward and protecting more fragile sleeper units. They can't really pull the creeper forward if they can't land in front of it.
6. It's not really clear how the disruptor beam's targeting works. (I still like the disruptor beam.) Does it try to hit as many sleeper units as possible with each shot? Does it target a random sleeper unit? Does it target the deepest creeper tile on the map? Does it try to destroy as much creeper as possible with each shot? It feels like it's one of those, but for all I know it could be something else.
7. Once again, the enemy A.I. just sits back and waits for its demise. Maybe it could slowly build berthas over time and put them on auto target. (Actually, I don't know if it's possible to use CRPL to put berthas on auto target.) Or maybe it could get some anti-creeper emitters that get stronger over time, but take damage from creeper.
1. Oof
2. Well, yes.
3. This will most likely change in future maps, so...
4. The Strafer script was not changed, except for selection.
5. Well, yes.
6. It's not that simple. It runs test on each sleeper unit to check the unit type, distance, and unit types in a 6 cells radius. It calculates then a value, and targets the unit which has the highest value (This algorithm was tough to make...).
7.
What about AC Sleeper? I actually don't see anything that would feel good to play. I don't think you can put berthas to auto target, and AC emitters that grow over time... It might not be funny for
me many people. BTW the more time you spend to reach the final island, the more AC there is there.
I was playing this map some more, and I found out that there is some trick (bug) to make sleeper cannons attack very quickly. I'm not quite sure how it works, or how to reliably pull it off, but it involved pausing the game and using n (the next frame button) to advance time. In the screenshot here you can see a sleeper cannon firing five projectiles before the first one hits the ground!
Quote from: Running Rat on June 16, 2020, 07:14:18 AM
I was playing this map some more, and I found out that there is some trick (bug) to make sleeper cannons attack very quickly. I'm not quite sure how it works, or how to reliably pull it off, but it involved pausing the game and using n (the next frame button) to advance time. In the screenshot here you can see a sleeper cannon firing five projectiles before the first one hits the ground!
That bug probably comes from the game itself, which sometimes give frame time to units while the game is paused, even when these units are not active while paused.
Why it seems to stop while paused is because the script detects when the game is paused and stop running. However, the timers, which ensure that the cannon doesn't turn into a machine gun, still progress in that particular case. So... If one of your cannons (or any sleeper unit BTW) is suffering from the pause bug, and you press "n" every half a second or every second (depending on the fire rate of the weapon), it could theoretically shoot every frame. Why it doesn't is because the sleeper unit need Creeper under them to work, and that Creeper is consumed by the unit. So, the Creeper needs a few frames to flow under the unit.
Quote from: Running Rat on June 16, 2020, 07:14:18 AM
I was playing this map some more, and I found out that there is some trick (bug) to make sleeper cannons attack very quickly. I'm not quite sure how it works, or how to reliably pull it off, but it involved pausing the game and using n (the next frame button) to advance time. In the screenshot here you can see a sleeper cannon firing five projectiles before the first one hits the ground!
That is exploitable with spore towers too, greatly shortened my time to completion doing that.
Nice concept but boring to play in the current state:
Just spam collectors and terps. Forge can be used to increase creeper production.
Fighting units are basically useless because of infinitesimal range.
But it could actually be the map, wich is to blame.
A more strategic map with way less space for the player might play completely different.
Maybe also make the terp work just like a regular terp (terraform uncovered and creep-covered terrain) and give player direct control over spore/strafer/bomber targets and digitalis (spread manually on creep only).
Finished in 33:10.2 and rated 9 to encourage further development.
Quote from: Nati on September 30, 2020, 05:48:52 PM
Nice concept but boring to play in the current state:
Just spam collectors and terps. Forge can be used to increase creeper production.
Fighting units are basically useless because of infinitesimal range.
Well, this we know. Sad
QuoteMaybe also make the terp work just like a regular terp (terraform uncovered and creep-covered terrain)
In Sleeper maps, terps work like that. But maybe it would be possible to have Digi control in Terp range.
Quoteand give player direct control over spore/strafer/bomber targets
This and Terp, you definitely want us to burn out making the next version, which we almost did making this one... It's actually very hard for strafer (and bomber, but it's not in template yet), but it might be easier (a little) for spores.
Quoteand digitalis (spread manually on creep only).
That's how it works on Play As Creeper maps, which are kinda different... It would be broken in PAS
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/369708437438988289/878446155258789969/unknown.png?width=1113&height=676
so... I found a bunch of bugs by accident...
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/369708437438988289/878448539238285372/unknown.png
There's more