This topic is for discussion of map #4262: what now
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=4262)
Author: Bitje
Size: 168x133
Desc:
another one :)
This is a pretty cool map. The one thing I'd change is sorting out the mess of ore mines in the upper left so that it's easier to see where to build them.
Thanks for the map! 8)
The ore mines are a mess, lay them out sanely.
Otherwise, interesting idea with the central divider. Once I saw how to do it I came back and got the second best time.
If I'm going to play for top times, I'm going to have to pause more, but I hate that and I seem to do fine anyway.
I thought the "messy" ore field was kind of funny, actually.
Not sure I've exactly narrowed down my strategy to the optimal yet, but I'm happy with my time.
Quote from: Karsten75 on February 21, 2017, 09:50:31 AM
If I'm going to play for top times, I'm going to have to pause more, but I hate that and I seem to do fine anyway.
I thought the "messy" ore field was kind of funny, actually.
Not sure I've exactly narrowed down my strategy to the optimal yet, but I'm happy with my time.
I don't go for top times but sometimes when I see a much better option I do a map a second time.
The first time around I didn't realize there was no connection between the sides and prepared defenses for the oncoming creeper wall.
The second time the only defenses on the right were beams, I took much more territory at the start.
Quote from: Loren Pechtel on February 21, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
The second time the only defenses on the right were beams, I took much more territory at the start.
Hmm... the thing slows me down most is getting to the Totems - and for that I (have( to build some weapons on the left side.
Having said that, I just got an idea... I might give it another shot.
Yep pausing is essential for top times, I mainly use it in the first two minutes. For Alter/EA times the N key may be needed as well.
Spoiler
On this map by two minutes you can have nullifiers building on top left and bottom left emitters plus 7 nullifiers down for the left spores in the centre. You can also have the entire left side covered in collectors and the forge built. From that point on you can kind of relax a bit with the occasional pause but the first two mins takes about 10 pauses and 5 to 10 mins.
The collector is the most powerful unit in the game, a fast early carpet is essential for every map.
Quote from: D0m0nik on February 24, 2017, 04:10:11 AM
Yep pausing is essential for top times, I mainly use it in the first two minutes. For Alter/EA times the N key may be needed as well.
Nice time, I may try it again sometime.
On a side note, you have noticed that Alter Old and EA only seem to play on maps with inhibitors? (Eg quick wins or no wins?) :)
Edit: Nice layout, BTW. ;)
QuoteNice layout, BTW
I showed discipline, I thought you would appreciate that! My original run was a little more chaotic!
QuoteOn a side note, you have noticed that Alter Old and EA only seem to play on maps with inhibitors? (Eg quick wins or no wins?) :)
Just guessing but my take on this is:
Alter is very specific and I think he only really plays maps that can be clinically picked apart and dissected, he is unlikely to play a big long grudge map for example. It is also why probably why we have not seen him much on PF, too many random elements. I think he has an incredibly logical mind. EA is a bit more wide ranging in what he plays and I think is the best all round player. I suspect though that to get the times that they post they must have to put a significant amount of time into each map hence they choose to be selective. I suspect, given the time, they could both post crazy times to every map on here.
It would be interesting to know how many maps they do play though and if they always post scores.
I did go back to try one more time. My results were disappointing.
My basic layout that approximated yours was about 2 minutes slower... No idea how I mess that up.
Then I miscalculated taking out the first island emitter by about 4 seconds and had forgotten to save. My overall time was then slower by about 30 seconds on my best and still 3+ minutes slower than you.
Karsten75
D0m0nik
OK ; ).
(http://i.piccy.info/i9/38ecf73a05c2aabd14276413f037fbd5/1488397387/28556/1124233/1st.jpg)
wait...
Does this mean Alter is about to post a 5 min time?! :D
Man, he doesn't say much does he? Just pops in, winks, and then does something brilliant. Hmph. I ran his winky-smile through Google translate and it came back as:
"Your early score of nice number is doomed like a 1-legged goat in the river of yellow death piranhas every Tuesday."
Of course, Google translate has been known to make mistakes. From time to time. ;D
Haha Johnny, almost word for word how I translated it myself!
Nice work as usual Alter! Fancy sharing some tips with us amateurs? How do you approach maps, how many times do you play one to get this score, do you use N key etc? Be interesting to know your stategy/ top tips :D
Well,
(http://i.piccy.info/i9/e4a52a69a9a46c4ee8eac1dc89a9c837/1488474941/32481/1124233/2nd.jpg)
Quote from: D0m0nik on March 01, 2017, 03:45:21 PM
Does this mean Alter is about to post a 5 min time?! :D
I think, it's unreal. My first time about 7:30. After 2 hours optimizing turned out 6:56.8. Maybe 15-20 seconds will turn out to win, but I certainly won't do it :
).
Quote from: D0m0nik on February 24, 2017, 10:22:06 AM
QuoteOn a side note, you have noticed that Alter Old and EA only seem to play on maps with inhibitors? (Eg quick wins or no wins?) :)
... Alter is very specific ... EA is a bit more wide ranging ...
This is a game, not a job, isn't it? Naturally, I decide what I like. Usually this card involving unusual tactical decision, or calibrated, or specific strategy. And here's the map, for example, was passed by using standard techniques. It is not boring, just to see how it addressed. I think ea3401 is guided by the same considerations.
Karsten75, D0m0nik - thanks for the kind words.
Johnny Haywire - thanks for the good humor.
Quote from: D0m0nik on March 02, 2017, 12:34:08 PM
How do you approach maps, how many times do you play one to get this score, do you use N key etc? Be interesting to know your stategy/ top tips :D
The language barrier does not allow me to use colorful descriptions and sloppy speech as something unpleasant. But this map will try... just not tonight, probably.
Quote
The language barrier does not allow me to use colorful descriptions and sloppy speech as something unpleasant. But this map will try... just not tonight, probably.
I just meant general tips really for anyone looking to improve their times.
I have watched your youtube videos and they helped me a huge amount. I will never catch you and EA though, you really take things to the next level, your time on this map is incredible but I understand the amount of concentration and control to achieve it!
Agreed. Alter Old, please feel free to use whatever language you want to share whatever ideas you like. Those of us who care enough will figure it out ;)
You & EA are the benchmark of perfected strategies, at least by my definitions. And Dom's closer to you guys than I am so I'm just happy to tag along and enjoy the show! (Of course, that's when it's time to open a new bag of potato chips!) ;D
PS - I just came .1 sec to your score on another map, so I'm going to throw a party. Since it also happens to be my 1000th map I will make it a BIG party with lots of non-nutritious food and soda with artificial coloring. Just try to stop me! 8)
Quote from: Johnny Haywire on March 03, 2017, 03:56:35 PM
PS - I just came .1 sec to your score on another map, so I'm going to throw a party. Since it also happens to be my 1000th map I will make it a BIG party with lots of non-nutritious food and soda with artificial coloring. Just try to stop me! 8)
Beware - I once beat an Alter score and came hear to boast, he came back and smashed his original crazy score by 20% leaving me well defeated!
Eh, I'm not scared. I'm just happy to have come close to one of the great masters - even if it is but for a brief moment! It's all I've ever wanted! ;D
*Starts singing* "Give meee ONNNNE moment in tiiiiiiiiiiime..."
Disclaimer: The person below who is pictured as singing is NOT me. No inference to my singing ability should be derived from the visual representation displayed, nor any implication of an inference to either a beneficial or detrimental affiliation, whether substantive in nature or implanted as a result of one's own distorted paracosm. We reserve the right to modify or void this promotion at any time. See store for details.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/25que14.jpg)
Quote
Disclaimer: The person below who is pictured as singing is NOT me. No inference to my singing ability should be derived from the visual representation displayed, nor any implication of an inference to either a beneficial or detrimental affiliation, whether substantive in nature or implanted as a result of one's own distorted paracosm. We reserve the right to modify or void this promotion at any time. See store for details.
You just have the same hair style right?
Oh you KNOW it. But I won't give you any more details. For that, you'll have to "see the store" as is stated so aptly in my disclaimer which protects me from virtually any accusation, lawsuit or bad cole slaw.
Original map
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i631/1703/07/ec089b60b1c1.jpg)
You can define map strategy at time 0, but I prefer to chase away 30-45 seconds to become apparent that where and how. In our case the most difficult will be to the East of emitters power 750/0.5, which also "support" each other.
There are two ways to deal with enemies: direct pressure ("full frontal") or landing. For frontal need serious forces, lots of energy and strongholds. We have a reference could be made only by PZ, which will remain in the middle of the map, and this is, therefore, the frontal will be long. Landings are of various kinds, and they must be used, and optionally a Guppy in order of efficiency AoO, Singularity, Bertha, Sprayers, Shields etc.
In our case there is no AoO, but there is a whole 10 Totem, which means that the Aether is more than enough. The number of experimentally determined Berthas, but-I'm guessing-it is advisable to have two better three Berthas at PZ. We have only one such means, need another three to six ordinary Berthas (ran out of 4).
So tactical, in descending order: the destruction of Eastern emitters-Singularity-Forge as fast as possible the Aether-3-5 a Guppy-1 Bertha on PZ + 4 regular-the destruction of the North-Western and South-Western emitters. In parallel, it is necessary to solve the problem of Central emitters and defuse (or destroy) Spore Towers. Formally, this minor task can serve as a source of PZ for those reactors, but actually this approach only slow us. Later it turned out that the easiest way to destroy seven nearby Towers even before their operation, and the remaining seven easily stopped four Beams.
To the Northwest the emitter (20/5) enough 2-3 Cannons, for the South-West I used 4 +1 Cannons and one Shield-I am so it was convenient.
Here is a screenshot of the final, repeatedly adjusted, initial placement (I do almost every lineup card and keep it in 1 slot).
Initial placement
(http://s014.radikal.ru/i328/1703/21/42071f771a8c.jpg)
Note: collectors are with minimal overlap and are activated in such a way that:
1) not to overburden the CN energetically (ideally with a deficit of energy on CN Info Panels should not be neither green nor red strips);
2) build or the nearest collectors (maximum power for minimum time) or collectors on lines of communication between CN;
3) line links to critical sites are built so late as this is only possible if they energetically disadvantageous.
Thanks to these three rules I win some time early in the card. In our case, the critical Northern Nullifier (there is early Tower) and South-Western Weapons (there's more active voltage). They have to build at the expense of energy policy.
The third screenshot is an intermediate stage in the construction of the base.
Intermediate stage
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i626/1703/d0/663fb78e7a27.jpg)
Next, the Nullifiers are connected when there is excess energy and Berthas disabled when more energy is required. In General, the creative process:). At the fourth screenshot is about to enter into force Forge, so I accumulate energy for the Totems. Again, the Totems are turned off periodically if necessary (Stop Resupply). The fourth screenshot - practically implemented, priorities in the Northwest will soon be ready for PZ Bertha, in the southwest of most Totems connected Tower-destroyed, the remaining six prepared.
End Part I
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i606/1703/a1/4bf55269f762.jpg)
To be continued ...
RU
Исходная карта
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i631/1703/07/ec089b60b1c1.jpg)
Можно определиться со стратегией по карте в нулевой момент времени, но я предпочитаю прогнать 30-45 секунд, чтобы стало наглядно видно, что, где и как происходит. В нашем случае самыми сложными будут эмиттеры на Востоке мощностью 750/0.5, которые ещё и "поддерживают" друг друга.
Есть два способа разобраться с врагами: прямое давление ("лобовая") или десант. Для лобовой нужны серьёзные силы, много энергии и опорные пункты. У нас опорными могут выступать только PZ, которые останутся в середине карты, а это далеко, поэтому лобовая будет долгой. Десанты бывают разных видов, и для них обязательно используются Guppy, и опционально (в порядке убывания эффективности) AoO, Singularity, Bertha, Sprayers, Shields etc.
В нашем случае AoO нет, зато есть целых 10 Totem, а значит, Aether будет более чем достаточно. Количество Berthas определяется экспериментально, но - навскидку - желательно иметь две, лучше три Berthas на PZ. У нас такая только одна, значит, нужны ещё три-шесть обычных Berthas (хватило 4).
Итак, тактические задачи в порядке убывания: уничтожение восточных эмиттеров - Singularity - Forge с максимально возможной скоростью Aether - 3-5 Guppy - 1 Bertha on PZ + 4 обычных - уничтожение северо-западного и юго-западного эмиттеров. Параллельно надо решить проблему центральных эмиттеров и обезвредить (или уничтожить) Spore Towers. Формально эта второстепенная задача может послужить источником PZ для тех же реакторов, но на самом деле такой подход только замедлит нас. В дальнейшем выяснилось, что проще всего уничтожить семь ближних Towers ещё до их срабатывания, а оставшиеся семь легко купируются четырьмя Beams.
Для северо-западного эмиттера (20/5) достаточно двух-трёх Cannons, для юго-западного я использовал 4+1 Cannons и один Shield - мне так было удобней.
Вот скриншот окончательной, неоднократно скорректированной, начальной расстановки (я делаю расстановку практически на каждой карте и храню ее в 1 слоте).
Начальная расстановка
(http://s014.radikal.ru/i328/1703/21/42071f771a8c.jpg)
Обратите внимание: коллекторы расположены с минимальным перекрытием и активизируются таким образом, чтобы:
1) не перегружать CN энергетически (в идеале при дефиците энергии на CN Info Panels не должно быть ни зелёных, ни красных полосок);
2) строить либо ближайшие коллекторы (максимум энергии за минимальное время), либо коллекторы по линии связи между CN;
3) линии связи к критически важным местам строятся так поздно, как это только возможно, если они энергетически невыгодны.
Благодаря этим трём правилам я выигрываю некоторое время уже в самом начале карты. В нашем случае критически важен северный Nullifier (там находится ранний Tower) и юго-западные Weapons (там более активный эмиттер). Их приходится строить в ущерб энергетической политике.
Третий скриншот - промежуточный этап в строительстве базы.
Промежуточный этап
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i626/1703/d0/663fb78e7a27.jpg)
Далее Nullifiers подключаются, когда есть излишки энергии, а Berthas отключаются, когда требуется больше энергии. В общем, процесс творческий : ). На четвёртом скриншоте вот-вот вступит в действие Forge, поэтому я накапливаю энергию для Totems. Опять же, Totems периодически отключатся при необходимости (Stop Resupply). Четвёртый скриншот - первостепенные задачи практически выполнены, на северо-западе скоро будет готова PZ для Bertha, на юго-западе большинство Totems подключены, критичный Tower разрушен, оставшиеся шесть подготовлены.
Конец первой части
(http://s019.radikal.ru/i606/1703/a1/4bf55269f762.jpg)
Продолжение следует...
Fantastic, thank you for sharing.
Already there are a few things I do not do.
The collectors are spaced further apart for opptimisation, interesting. I have mine so every collector is connected to 4 others in a grid, this is obviously less efficient than your system. I am also very lazy is disabling power to the berthas and to the totems.
The tip to keep power neither red or green but right on the edge is very good advice and I try to keep to this throughout in every level I play but it is easy to loose focus!
Look forward to seeing how you pushed right!
Quote from: D0m0nik on March 05, 2017, 12:05:42 PM
The collectors are spaced further apart for opptimisation, interesting.
Yes, it gives the winning party in the beginning, but in the distant prospect a little proigryshnej than the standard formation. The truth is that by the time usually energy hunger no longer face - i.e. at the expense of primary win in time, you can fill in the gaps in the future, when the excess energy. On this map, for example, I later we collectors the entire western edge of the map.
Wow, excellent information. It's sad that the grid formation isn't the most efficient - I'm too often torn between symmetry and efficiency which are both mathematical characteristics that I appreciate.
Alter Old, your info and setup is so detailed & informative I almost feel like I should be receiving a diploma after finishing that! Thank you for your insight and analysis - it is most thorough and helpful ;D
Well, continue to be short. Between the previous and the next screenshot were carried out all previously specified actions: destroyed Western Emitters destroyed seven affordable Towers, built 4 Beams, Bertha has been added on the PZ etc. And - most importantly - at full power earned Forge. Since the latter Bertha appeared quite late, primarily to improve energy performance in Forge and speed of construction. And again, in principle, the creative process:). Well, the last jerk I didn't describe: Troopers-not an easy thing, it is necessary to persist and do a lot of body movement, not always successful on the first try. However-see for yourself.
Last screenshot
(http://i045.radikal.ru/1703/8c/8f4723bc4ca1.jpg)
RU
А продолжение будет коротким. Между предыдущим скриншотом и следующим были проделаны все ранее обговоренные действия: уничтожены западные Emitters, уничтожены семь доступных Towers, построены 4 Beams, добавлена Bertha на PZ и - самое главное - на полную мощность заработал Forge. Поскольку последняя Bertha появилась довольно поздно, в первую очередь улучшаем в Forge энергетические показатели и скорость строительства. А в принципе - опять же творческий процесс : ). Ну а последний рывок я не стал описывать: десант - штука нелёгкая, приходится сохраняться и делать много телодвижений, не всегда удачных с первого раза. Впрочем - смотрите сами.
Last screenshot
(http://i045.radikal.ru/1703/8c/8f4723bc4ca1.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/_UtmIijGmfc).
Amazing work in that video, Alter Old! Your patience and insight is incredible - thanks for sharing it with us! ;)
Ok that was crazy! I never would have thought of using the singularity in that way, I just go for brute strength start to finish.
I also see how 'on the edge' you often are, the nullifiers are so close to being destroyed so often but extreme micro management skill keeps them allive.
Thanks again for shairing this. What is amazing is you can play this game for years (I started with CW1 many moons ago) and there is still a lot to learn!
QuoteWhat is amazing is you can play this game for years (I started with CW1 many moons ago) and there is still a lot to learn!
Agreed. And yanno, I actually started playing this game when it was called "Pac Man". ;D
Quote from: D0m0nik on March 08, 2017, 04:20:17 AM
Ok that was crazy! I never would have thought of using the singularity in that way, I just go for brute strength start to finish.
It's one of the important uses of the singularity--sucking creeper off a spot so you can place a nullifier.
QuoteI also see how 'on the edge' you often are, the nullifiers are so close to being destroyed so often but extreme micro management skill keeps them allive.
Totally insane! :)