http://www.engadget.com/2015/10/12/call-of-duty-black-ops-3-campaign-unlocked/
So, should Particle Fleet be the same way? The whole story campaign and everything else available at game start? This would save some development work and even some support cases down the road.... (like how to unlock the game after somebody's hard drive died).
+: Would save you some development cost,
+: Would save some support issues
+: Would let whiners bypass Farbor
-: Might generate some dissatisfaction from those that try to jump ahead.
-: Might neuter the story line
All in all I think it won't detract a lot.
Hopefully there will still be completed, in-progress, etc. indicators on the various levels.
-: Removes satisfaction from unlocking new levels (tested, RCT1 vs. RCT2)
I need something to unlock to keep me playing, so I would do everything to convince you to keep the old win-to-unlock model. Editing some files to gain access or a hidden cheat is fine for me.
Doing that seems very strange to me. I personally wouldn't like that.
There seems to be a few advantages to it but I think these advantages will probably only really apply to a minority and not the majority. The 2 main benefits I like is as you mentioned, 1) People who lose their data for some reason and 2) as Karsten mentioned, for players who struggle on a Farbor-like level.
I'm not sure I appreciate how it could help save development work because you'll still have to program all the levels right? (please forgive my ignorance.)
If you were to do it, I would strongly suggest not to do it in a way so that it instantly applies to everyone.
I suppose, you could keep it tucked away as an option in the "Settings" or "Options" section which says "Unlock all Campaign Missions" and then have a nice big warning message like "Activating this will mean all story missions will be unlocked and will allow you to play any mission in any order. This may ruin and spoil the intended storyline. Are you sure you wish to do this".
This way I suppose you could satisfy both types of players.
Quote from: J on October 13, 2015, 11:41:52 AM
-: Removes satisfaction from unlocking new levels (tested, RCT1 vs. RCT2)
I need something to unlock to keep me playing, so I would do everything to convince you to keep the old win-to-unlock model. Editing some files to gain access or a hidden cheat is fine for me.
I'm with J on this one. I like the satisfaction that comes from unlocking the next level. I get that it's a personal choice and I could just go in order, but it just wouldn't feel the same to me.
I, too, feel the need to speak my thoughts against this. The satisfaction of unlocking levels is something that drives me greatly. I play mostly for the storyline/campaign, and combined with the gameplay your games have offered me i'm extremely happy. If you take away the need to unlock the levels you will take away a large part of the game in my opinion.
Also, i think the people who say to make unlocking everything an option haven't figured out why you'd want to do this in the first place, as making it an option will give you extra work instead of lowering it as you were saying :)
The choice lies with you eventually, but I still feel the need for it to have unlockable story missions.
This is a metagame question. (edit: my bad) Two points.
1) Level grinding only makes sense in RPGs.
2) Developers love stuffing RPG mechanics in places where they don't belong.
Is the metagame an RPG? Did those points completely miss the point? Is there a single game in all of history where all the regular missions did not have to be completed in order? Is there a single game in history where the multiplayer was not unlocked at the start? Yes, yes, yes, yes. But those last two were supposed to be rhetorical.
I want bonus missions that are harder than the main storyline missions that unlock when achievements are met.
(skippable tutorials please)
I am not sure how the game will be made, and whether or not all the tech will be available from start to finish, or as you progress you become more powerful, with access to more tech, but if the later is the case, and all levels were open at the start, then only the foolish, or the elite will hammer the last mission with the abilities only gained from the start mission.
Quote from: Lioncourt on October 13, 2015, 11:00:53 PM
I am not sure how the game will be made, and whether or not all the tech will be available from start to finish, or as you progress you become more powerful, with access to more tech, but if the later is the case, and all levels were open at the start, then only the foolish, or the elite will hammer the last mission with the abilities only gained from the start mission.
Exactly. And I don't want to have unlocked all levels, because (this applies most for me) instead of trying and trying to beat farbor-like mission, I would countinue to the next level. So I would get spoiled, and miss the satisfaction of unlocking the next levels.
I actually like the idea of skipping levels. The positive seem to outweigh the negatives. People want the satisfactions of completing levels but there is always a way to skip levels. Some people did do it for Farbor. Anyone can easily use another person's save. I think the satisfying part comes from completing an extremely difficult mission and you are forced to do it but the achievement of doing it feels diminished when somebody else can skip the mission. People have skipped levels in creeper world 3 but the brain has a self conceived illusion that everybody else had to also complete Farbor to get to the next level. The feeling of unlocking levels is an illusion when you really think about it. Adding a skip button to the game UI brings the brain in too direct of a confrontation with the illusion and causes dissatisfaction.
The best comparison though is when a game has multiple difficulty modes. Lets use Halo Reach as an example. When you play on easy mode, you might as well be skipping the combat. That is how easy the game is at that difficulty. When you play on legendary mode, the game becomes extremely difficult. Does completing the Halo Reach campaign on legendary mode feel any less satisfying because somebody did the campaign on easy mode? The fact other people did the campaign on easy mode does not enter your mind honestly and easy mode might as well be skip the game. It felt extremely satisfying to me to complete halo reach on legendary mode.
Another point I would like to make is the achievement in creeper world 3 for completing the brainiac level in under 60 seconds. It is very blatant some people used a macro setup someone made for the achievement to get that achievement and got a super human score of less than 2 seconds. When all said and done, it did not make me feel any less sense of achievement for completing that level in under 60 seconds through raw brain power.
I honestly always knew that unlocking the next level by completing the current level is only an illusion and a fallacy (At least on PC anyways due to just using someone's save file) and that is why I think think the idea of being able to choose any level is a great idea with all the positives Virgil mentioned.
I do have an awesome idea that could make Particle Fleet much better and have the best of both worlds. Have a normal mode for the Campaign (What you were going to make anyways) and a hard mode. The difference is that in hard mode, you can not skip levels and the levels are a lot harder. This would honestly make the game much better. I always craved for the most difficult levels in creeper world 3 and have completed all the hardest sleeper mode maps. Having a more challenging version of the Campaign could be an awesome feature. If there is a very challenging mission in the normal mode, just have the hard mode variant abolish the old strategy and require a new strategy to complete the map. This is probably quite a bit of work but I would not mind honestly paying $25 for the game. On a side note, I probably have good judgement on when the difficulty of a mission is taken too far ;)
Quote from: Jamz on October 13, 2015, 12:45:56 PM
...I suppose, you could keep it tucked away as an option in the "Settings" or "Options" section which says "Unlock all Campaign Missions" and then have a nice big warning message...
Or every ten levels one skip free...
I like running campaigns in order, however I can see the appeal for some players (and the developer) to just have it all available.
What if it's all available from the start, and you have 2 mutually exclusive achievements for the final level, depending on if you ran the missions in order or skipped or played out of order? (Can you have mutually exclusive achievements on Steam?)
About all the suggestions involved additional coding and potential issues with the game state data. The very specific issues the OP indicated that Virgil would want to avoid.
Quote from: virgilw on October 13, 2015, 09:33:57 AM
... This would save some development work and even some support cases down the road.... (like how to unlock the game after somebody's hard drive died).
It's not about adding complexity (choice) to the game, it's about simplifying it and whether the simplification subtracts significantly from the player experience.
I also feel like the unlocking mechanism is the right choice as a default. It teaches the player how to play the game and lets them digest it piece by piece. But letting them skip ahead is a fine idea and if allowed, it should be an option that is disabled by default. They'd have to click to unlock all levels, and given a stern warning that doing so will bypass the "learn as you go" method and may make the game less enjoyable. This gives them the control they want but also lets them know the downside to making that choice.
Quote from: Karsten75 on October 14, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
Quote from: virgilw on October 13, 2015, 09:33:57 AM
... This would save some development work and even some support cases down the road.... (like how to unlock the game after somebody's hard drive died).
It's not about adding complexity (choice) to the game, it's about simplifying it and whether the simplification subtracts significantly from the player experience.
hmmm... I would say discussing an issue in the negative is still discussing an issue. It is about choice. And the short answer is, simplification would subtract significantly from the player experience.
There are places to cut a project, and I believe for this type of game, the outer game is not one of them. To clarify my earlier post, most games only allow levels to be unlocked in order, but have multiplayer (community feateures) unlocked at start. You should have reason before breaking the rules.
Quote from: warren on October 14, 2015, 03:16:57 PM
..simplification would subtract significantly from the player experience.....
I think this is the key issue of the debate. It would subtract from the player experience, yes. Significantly? In your opinion, yes. In other's opinions, maybe not so much. Sounds like this is what Virgil is trying to determine.
I'll be happy as long as it's not difficult to track my progress and run the missions in order. If I have to remember what I just played and go figure out what's next, that would detract from my experience. I don't care if the next 5 missions are already unlocked or not.
I think having everything locked at the start increases the player's happiness as they go along and unlock things and see the game open up from just a basic tutorial into a full game with many things to do. To have everything open at the start in my opinion looks unprofessional like you didnt know what order you wanted things and just rushed into it leaving everything wide open. It look sloppy and detracts from the gameplay value. Having things in order means that people don't get upset over the plot line and getting confused on where they were. So my opinion is keep things locked until they complete the previous map.
I think it would be fine to have everything unlocked as long as all the levels have some hardcore challenges to them, and i'm talking Farbor style hardcore. I say this because it would help balance the fact that theirs no excitement from unlocking levels. The reason i personally enjoyed the entire campaign in the CW games was because the whole story was a challenge. Having to unlock a plant or complete a mission in a certain way to get further made the entire campaign part of that quest to get further, but if everything was unlocked I would just go for the Horror/Farbor styled maps since there the challenge and its what i enjoyed the most.
If CW3 is anything to go by, the story, that can be left alone. The outer sectors however, unlock them from the start (well, maybe require the first level to be beaten at most)
How about we have all levels by default, but skipping disables achievements and submitting scores?
Quote from: Drone_swarm on October 15, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
How about we have all levels by default, but skipping disables achievements and submitting scores?
I agree. Why not? It suits all of us.
Quote from: Qwerty Quazo on October 16, 2015, 06:56:50 AM
Quote from: Drone_swarm on October 15, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
How about... achievements... scores...
I agree. Why not?...
Hmmmm... There is something off about that suggestion... Can't place it.
Also, I forgot to mention something important the last two times I posted. Difficulty levels? No...
Star ratings? No... I'm sure it will come to me long after this conversation loses all relevance.
Think think think... Time to unlock. Oh yeah! Wait, that's not actually that important to mention.
NVM
But now that It's been brought up, I would like to point out that there are two issues here: Time to unlock for the hardcore crowd and anyone else who ever lost all their save files, and barrier to entry *cough* farbor *cough* for the casual crowd.
Let's have everything unlocked, but the map is a big web with multiple starting points and different ways to get to each system. If you come across a Farbor in one system, you can simply complete the other systems that lead to the system after the Farbor.
Quote from: Asbestos on October 16, 2015, 09:34:50 AM
Let's have everything unlocked, but the map is a big web with multiple starting points and different ways to get to each system. If you come across a Farbor in one system, you can simply complete the other systems that lead to the system after the Farbor.
Good idea (if the levels of each individual path are unlocked one by one), but can be very hard to keep the story going accross those paths.
Quote from: Qwerty Quazo on October 16, 2015, 06:56:50 AM
Quote from: Drone_swarm on October 15, 2015, 08:15:15 PM
How about we have all levels by default, but skipping disables achievements and submitting scores?
I agree. Why not? It suits all of us.
Look at the second reply in this thread for a reason why not. If you do want to get the achievement later, you must play the missed levels again, if you have to replay levels people will complain, if not the achievement would just be 'complete all missions'.
To keep people from complaining about hard levels, the story line maps could have a few more maps that are meant to teach the player some good tactics. I've missed those in CW3. The Bowl from CW:TS does a good job at teaching players to get some chokepoints before the creeper does. With an increased time limit it would fit as 6th or 7th story mission. Another mission with just collectors and cannons after the third would also help a bit, even if it's just to let them know that that are the basic units you should use in every mission (at least for the start), and not just relays and reactors.
For me, story in creeper world wasn't a big deal and didn't care for it much. If story doesn't seem to be a crucial aspect of the game then i think all levels can be unlocked at the start. Creeper world originally got its popularity mostly from the flash version with no or minimal story. I don't see how this would be different.
However slow almost linear progression with increasingly harder levels allows the player to learn skill in the game. I think it's whatever you think is in the best interest of the player.