This topic is for discussion of map #1895: Spiral Takeback
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=1895)
Author: stdout
Size: 150x150
Desc:
Our previous attempts to take the heavily fortified spiral system have failed but this time we are determined to win. This won't be easy and losses may be great, but you must claim this system for the Loki. #PlayAsCreeper
This is my attempt at a long slog with some built in frustration. Some of ya'll seem to like those kinds of maps so I hope you enjoy it. ;D
Quote from: stdout on March 24, 2015, 12:05:54 PM
This is my attempt at a long slog with some built in frustration. Some of ya'll seem to like those kinds of maps so I hope you enjoy it. ;D
yes, we do (or at least i do)
nice one, nice and hard
66 downloads and only 4 scores so far. I'd say I definitely succeeded! ;D
Quote from: stdout on March 24, 2015, 03:20:35 PM
66 downloads and only 4 scores so far. I'd say I definitely succeeded! ;D
Probably because we can't figure out how to get started. The cannons almost totally suppress the emitter so the only choice is where to target the spore--and I can find no place useful to target it. It can defend itself but that's a stalemate. Shooting farther away lets the nullifiers build a little bit each time--and when the beams come online it's not even possible.
To start...
Spoiler
Aim for the relay to the south that is just inside the shield's field next to the totem. You can drop a spore just outside the shield to the right and that will take out a good chunk of the nearby offense. Since there is not a lot of firepower in that area (cannons too low), the creeper pool can keep it down long enough so you can get a foothold with your single emitter.
Quote from: stdout on March 24, 2015, 03:20:35 PM
66 downloads and only 4 scores so far. I'd say I definitely succeeded! ;D
Yes, you did - horrible man! :D I've got a few spirals under my control, but struggling to go on further. I'll get there! Pesky berthas. :D
Fantastic map stdout, a real challenge and really great slog.
The first 7 PZs are easy to take and I was expecting to race through it but actually took a lot of tactics and a lot of patience, really good fun and on of my favourite maps ever!
Glad ya'll are enjoying it. I'm usually not a fan of those slog PAC maps but I figured I'd try my hand at making one. It turned out as well as I hoped. With all the directions you're never really at a true standstill. You can always backtrack and try a different direction.
I wish others would keep making PAC maps. I'm making them again only because nobody else is.
Yep. No way i'm sharing that time.
Gj!
That isn't exactly a slog map. I was quite lazy and at some point went by "spiral" path amassing all emitters on the way. I suppose with some spore towers micro it possible to get to sub 30m which is 2 times shorter than the required minimum for a slog map.
Quote from: DylanIs on March 25, 2015, 12:23:26 AM
To start... Spoiler
Aim for the relay to the south that is just inside the shield's field next to the totem. You can drop a spore just outside the shield to the right and that will take out a good chunk of the nearby offense. Since there is not a lot of firepower in that area (cannons too low), the creeper pool can keep it down long enough so you can get a foothold with your single emitter.
Thanks. A toehold, all I needed.
QuoteI wish others would keep making PAC maps. I'm making them again only because nobody else is.
I am so pleased you are making them again as they have indeed dried up, they are by far my favourite maps. The number of people who make the though is limited to a talented few. Is it hard to do, I have not tried?
It is also limited to an interested few. I cannot be alone in not liking PAC can I?
Quote from: warren on March 26, 2015, 12:33:12 PM
It is also limited to an interested few. I cannot be alone in not liking PAC can I?
sorry dudes, been really busy and i'm very picky with releasing maps i don't enjoy.
i have a few in process, i'll see if i can get one done soon!
stdout! great map! still haven't got an approach i'm happy with and i'm on restart number 5! ;)
good job dude! 8)
Thanks tek :)
D0m0nik the process for making a PlayAsCreeper map is actually quite streamlined and very easy to do now. Just follow the instructions on this page: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=17638.0 I'd love to see a map from you!
warren: go to Colonial Space and sort by rating. 18 out of 21 of the highest rated maps in CS are PlayAsCreeper. I think that says something about their popularity.
I stopped making maps because my imagination is limited by my noob coding skills. My ideas exceed my capability in this area so I get frustrated with it :( I know there is lots of excellent help here, but I want to do it myself and not bother people.
Now commenting on this map, have I mentioned Stdout that I HATE berthas.. ( I think I have :P ) and this map is technical and interesting as it is but the constant attacks by the berthas kills my enjoyment so I get to a point when I say, that's it and stop playing the map and don't go back to it. It's a shame as if this didn't have berthas, I would have really enjoyed it.. Maybe it's just me as some people like them.
I've heard a lot about the berthas and I agree that sure do add an element of frustration. You're doing something and it's going great and suddenly SLAM a bertha knocks out all your area. Then 30 seconds later the same thing happens. But it adds an element of difficulty that is hard to get otherwise. One way of dealing with that is to leave an emitter elsewhere on build-up mode. It releases 400 C every 10 seconds I believe and the berthas will often target that area instead of your main work area.
I find PZ enabled mortars to be my biggest nemesis. They kill all your creeper AND prevent any digitalis growth from the emitter. Ugh.
Well, I'm going to be making more maps. Maybe I'll make a few without berthas and see if I can still make them fun and challenging without being too easy.
One way to neutralise the berthas is to
Spoiler
fire a spore at one of the one-pixel islands. Berthas cannot resist the deep creeper. Only a useful tactic if you either have spore towers to spare or some are too close to beams to be useful
Quote from: Xeos on March 26, 2015, 05:29:31 PM
Now commenting on this map, have I mentioned Stdout that I HATE berthas.. ( I think I have :P ) and this map is technical and interesting as it is but the constant attacks by the berthas kills my enjoyment so I get to a point when I say, that's it and stop playing the map and don't go back to it.
Berthas are quite close to the initial start so they aren't big of a deal.
Quote from: stdout on March 26, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
I've heard a lot about the berthas and I agree that sure do add an element of frustration. You're doing something and it's going great and suddenly SLAM a bertha knocks out all your area. Then 30 seconds later the same thing happens. But it adds an element of difficulty that is hard to get otherwise. One way of dealing with that is to leave an emitter elsewhere on build-up mode. It releases 400 C every 10 seconds I believe and the berthas will often target that area instead of your main work area.
The main problem with berthas is they operate automatically while the player has to micromaganage a lot in order to "trick" them. And they don't get a notification before the attack, akin to spore shots in normal game.
Quote from: stdout on March 26, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
I find PZ enabled mortars to be my biggest nemesis. They kill all your creeper AND prevent any digitalis growth from the emitter. Ugh.
They tend to attack all creeper in vicinity, which is the weakness. If you surround them they will spread their attacks all over the place while the digitalis out-expands the shots.
Quote from: stdout on March 26, 2015, 06:04:20 PM
Well, I'm going to be making more maps. Maybe I'll make a few without berthas and see if I can still make them fun and challenging without being too easy.
I have yet to see maps where berthas add any difficulty whatsoever instead of frustration.
Quote from: RrR on March 26, 2015, 06:54:57 PM
One way to neutralise the berthas is to Spoiler
fire a spore at one of the one-pixel islands. Berthas cannot resist the deep creeper. Only a useful tactic if you either have spore towers to spare or some are too close to beams to be useful
That's a great tip thanks :) Makes them redundant to a point so map makers shouldnt bother putting them in anymore ;D
Fun map. The big huge "this is impossible" map with progressive weak points was a fun concept.
Spoiler
It's possible that the relay you nuke at the beginning and the collector you nuke to wipe out power generation are TOO weak. ;)
I actually wound up starting over once on this map, which is unusual for me (outside of pastor healer maps, anyway).
first time playing as creeper and I'm loving it. haven't beaten this map though. I keep getting stuck after I expand to second spiral
Quote from: StarShawn on March 28, 2015, 10:30:59 PM
first time playing as creeper and I'm loving it. haven't beaten this map though. I keep getting stuck after I expand to second spiral
I would HIGHLY recommend starting with PAC maps on a MUCH easier map. This one is quite difficult to figure out and you'll want to be much more familiar with the tactics of PAC maps. Go to the thread http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=17788.0 and you'll see the various PAC maps with their "estimated" difficulty level. That should help you get started on them and be able to learn the basics. They really are a LOT of fun.
Quote from: StarShawn on March 28, 2015, 10:30:59 PM
first time playing as creeper and I'm loving it. haven't beaten this map though. I keep getting stuck after I expand to second spiral
This isn't where you should start playing PAC maps.
By the time you have the second spiral there are plenty of weak points to dump a coordinated spore storm on.
Quote from: Loren Pechtel on March 29, 2015, 11:39:11 PM
Quote from: StarShawn on March 28, 2015, 10:30:59 PM
first time playing as creeper and I'm loving it. haven't beaten this map though. I keep getting stuck after I expand to second spiral
This isn't where you should start playing PAC maps.
By the time you have the second spiral there are plenty of weak points to dump a coordinated spore storm on.
yeah I started playing the other maps by stdout (love them all) and beaten them. this is now my final one
I shall rid this spiral of human soon.
Quote from: stdout on March 26, 2015, 01:10:34 PM
warren: go to Colonial Space and sort by rating. 18 out of 21 of the highest rated maps in CS are PlayAsCreeper. I think that says something about their popularity.
What inference are you drawing from the ratings?
Only about one out of six people who download these PAC's can post a score, and fewer than that bother to rate them.
From the comments posted, it appears as though a very loyal hard core of players love these and rate them very highly - but the results may be skewed because of that.
I like to download and look at them - several makers have done some terrific graphics work - but have only found a couple worth the time to play.
H
The map that has the most submitted scores is #197 (Tri-World, a regular map) where 715 players submitted a score. #2 is a PlayAsCreeper map which had 682 scores submitted. There are several other PAC maps in the top 10 most scores submitted.
It's not just a small band of loyal players driving ratings up on these maps. They are popular with a huge number of CW3 players. I'm not offended but when someone says an incorrect statement, saying that PAC maps are only for "a limited few" then I think that needs to be corrected.
PAC maps got a massive popularity boost because they introduced something that many people wanted: play as the creeper against Abraxis, just like the story missions were new when you got the game.
Looking at the steam stats, 85.4% of the players completed Tempus and 48% completed Meso. How many of the 44.1% of the players that entered CS started playing a PAC map? How many continued playing them?
I think the #PAC tag pushes up the ratings slightly. For those who don't like PAC, they immediately know to skip the map and consequently don't rate it. The limited few I was referring to is specifically #PAC fans who happen to also be mapmakers. I also believe that the non PAC audience may be larger, but get fewer plays per map as there are way more non PAC maps.
Sorry to wade into the debate uninvited but I think it is worth pointing out one thing about PAC maps.
Unlike traditional maps, PAC maps need some skill and expertise to make, I have been trying lately and cannot work it out/ cannot be bothered. Traditional maps can be made by anyone and so result in a lot of awful maps (0.45 seconds to complete etc). There is a small number of people making PAC maps and you know that every map is gong to be well thought and well made by a more than competent map designer and so I am always excited to see a new map just as I am excited to see a new map by Pastor H, I know what I am going to get!
Basically what I am saying is it is not just PAC maps that get well received in them self selves but the small number of talented map makers that create these maps that are well received/ voted high. If the same makers gave up and concentrated on traditional maps they would no doubt make very high scoring maps.
Good points, both of you.
So.....I don't know how to start this map. I honestly don't. That spoiler solution isn't helping me any, and I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to be doing here. I'm starting to consider that this is actually unwinnable or just made to deliberately piss people off, which is a silly reason to make a map.
Just....WHAT am I supposed to do here!?
Having read that, I played it to check.
Yes, it's one of the hardest PaCs I've played. Yes, it is also winnable.
Spoiler
The "let a spore spread to destroy a key Relay" works for the first Spore, but it's the next one along that I could keep suppressed (meaning no Beams further inward were built). After that, I kept the one Spore firing, but mostly used Emitters to get a few more PZs.
I think I switched to three Spores, then, then back to Emitters, and was pretty much stable.
From there, I gradually puzzled out where to go next - back and forth, picking up a PZ here and there. Don't be afraid to push coordinated Spores into Beam-range a bit, only one has to land to take out a Relay.
It was rather satisfying to punch a hole in the bottom-ring that one Spore could keep open, allowing the main storm to cut it in a second place, meaning a whole segment was unpowered and ripe for Digi-spread. After that, I only used a few Emitters, and just added Spores at (almost) every opportunity.
Don't try to go rightward or upward until you have considerable firepower, would be my advice.