This topic is for discussion of map #189: Construction
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=189)
Author: planetfall
Size: 130x130
Desc:
Humanity can always prevail against the Creeper! We have a Forge and it doesn-- oh. #CRPL #CustomEnemy #Spores #Digitalis #Runners
Yikes!
Just. Yikes.
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)
This map doesn't seem to work correctly; the text box says Beams can take out the Missiles, but they don't seem to do anything to the missiles; is it another unit that can take them out?
Which version are you using? If it isn't 1.65 or later, the beams won't target the missiles.
Confirm that the Beams do take out the missiles - and make sure you have plenty of them.
It is a VERY interesting screen if you don't.
I can't figure out the purpose of the construction in the lower right quadrant. The PZ isn't usable and I couldn't tell what happened when I built the Relays around the center.
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 03:28:49 PM
Confirm that the Beams do take out the missiles - and make sure you have plenty of them.
It is a VERY interesting screen if you don't.
I can't figure out the purpose of the construction in the lower right quadrant. The PZ isn't usable and I couldn't tell what happened when I built the Relays around the center.
1. Did you put a shield in the center, or just relays?
2. The PZ is only unusable if you built it to be unusable. The placement of the relays and the location of the constructor are ultimately your doing, not mine :P
3. Did you try moving it with collectors?
4. How on earth did you beat the map without using the constructor? It shouldn't be possible to destroy the far left totem and AET without it.
How are we to get version 1.65? The update screen only shows v1.61.
Also, I've not been able to get the PZ to work.
Spoiler
I've built a sheild in the middle and three relays, but it didn't look like it was charging up. I'm figuring that it needs to be charged with the whole 100 packets comment.
What am I missing?
Quote from: Lenori on February 02, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
How are we to get version 1.65? The update screen only shows v1.61.
Also, I've not been able to get the PZ to work. Spoiler
I've built a sheild in the middle and three relays, but it didn't look like it was charging up. I'm figuring that it needs to be charged with the whole 100 packets comment.
Get new versions from here: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=14505.0
I made this with 1.71 but any version other than 1.72 should work (the missiles would cause the game to glitch out when beams were shooting them)
Yes, the constructor does need to be charged with 100 packets, unless you mean the PZ generator isn't charging up. In that case, it's not meant to have a visible ammo bar. If it's not consuming packets at all... that's a problem. Can you update and tell me if the problem persists?
Heya planetfall.
Just wanted to say, I've played all 3 maps of yours from start to finish and I've enjoyed them all. I think it's great how you've come up with some innovative enemy units and behaviour and I really liked the way the enemy could "upgrade" themselves in this particular map.
I'm also quite intrigued with this story and how there's always some new discovery being made.
Regarding this particular map alone, I must say I'm quite disappointed by the rather low rating on it (so far 5.5). I get the feeling this may be due to the fact that some players on lower versions may be experiencing bugs and as a result not being able to enjoy the map and therefore giving it a low score.
I guess what I really want to say is that I hope these poor scores dont discourage you from continuing what you're doing because I dont think they truly reflect what it should be for this level. There are maps not as good as this one that are getting higher scores so this one definitely deserves more. Again, the reason I think it's not getting the scores is because of the issues people on lower versions are facing.
Keep up the work and I look forward to the next installment. :)
PS. Maybe in future maps, perhaps you could leave a note in the description about what version you made it in and recommend players to also update? ??? Just a thought
PSS. I played this in v1.73 and had no problems at all with any aspect of the map. Was able to destroy missiles and make use of the PZ constructor thingy... except that I didn't initially quite understand how it worked but it's possible it was just my poor ability to understand things.
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 03:28:49 PM
Confirm that the Beams do take out the missiles - and make sure you have plenty of them.
It is a VERY interesting screen if you don't.
I can't figure out the purpose of the construction in the lower right quadrant. The PZ isn't usable and I couldn't tell what happened when I built the Relays around the center.
1. Did you put a shield in the center, or just relays?
I followed the instructions - relays + shield.
2. The PZ is only unusable if you built it to be unusable. The placement of the relays and the location of the constructor are ultimately your doing, not mine :P
The PZ has a Totem growing through the top of it. How is that MY doing?
3. Did you try moving it with collectors?
I couldn't understand your instructions.
4. How on earth did you beat the map without using the constructor? It shouldn't be possible to destroy the far left totem and AET without it.
Build a Relay in one of the upper PZ's, then another by the far left Totem. Build the Nullifier.
You might want to consider having someone else read your instructions for clarity. I have fairly good (English) reading comprehension, but I think a lot of players will have a hard time figuring out the intent of the game. Obviously, a great deal of work went into it and you deserve all the kudos you can get.
H
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 03:28:49 PM
Confirm that the Beams do take out the missiles - and make sure you have plenty of them.
It is a VERY interesting screen if you don't.
I can't figure out the purpose of the construction in the lower right quadrant. The PZ isn't usable and I couldn't tell what happened when I built the Relays around the center.
1. Did you put a shield in the center, or just relays?
I followed the instructions - relays + shield.
2. The PZ is only unusable if you built it to be unusable. The placement of the relays and the location of the constructor are ultimately your doing, not mine :P
The PZ has a Totem growing through the top of it. How is that MY doing?
3. Did you try moving it with collectors?
I couldn't understand your instructions.
4. How on earth did you beat the map without using the constructor? It shouldn't be possible to destroy the far left totem and AET without it.
Build a Relay in one of the upper PZ's, then another by the far left Totem. Build the Nullifier.
You might want to consider having someone else read your instructions for clarity. I have fairly good (English) reading comprehension, but I think a lot of players will have a hard time figuring out the intent of the game. Obviously, a great deal of work went into it and you deserve all the kudos you can get.
H
The moving of the constructor also confused me a little bit at first. It seems what you have to do is build a collector at either of the 4 squares that are around the centre square. Then depending on where you placed the collector, the entire constructor will fit into that spot and replace the collector. You keep on doing this until you get it to where you want.
Also, for the finishing of the level, I also noticed that totem and AET to the left. Initially thought I'd have to move the constructor all the way to the left but then also noticed that spore which was around the north of the totem and AET and used a relay exactly as Helper did, thankfully saving me the effort of moving the constructor.
I guess my only criticism for this map would be that I didn't quite like the way we had to move the constructor. I guess I would have preferred if you could just select it and designate a spot for it to land on, even if it moved extremely slowly. Maybe you could've made it a requirement that you have to supply X amount of energy to move it... ??? ... dunno, just another random thought. But I just found this current method of moving the constructor with collectors quite painstaking, especially when I had to keep terping the ground so that I could place a collector exactly where I needed to. Eventually I decided to give up taking it to where I wanted to, and just build a PZ Bertha instead (which was quite helpful anyway :D)
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
Quote from: Helper on February 02, 2014, 03:28:49 PM
Confirm that the Beams do take out the missiles - and make sure you have plenty of them.
It is a VERY interesting screen if you don't.
I can't figure out the purpose of the construction in the lower right quadrant. The PZ isn't usable and I couldn't tell what happened when I built the Relays around the center.
1. Did you put a shield in the center, or just relays?
I followed the instructions - relays + shield.
Ah, OK, I misunderstood you then.
2. The PZ is only unusable if you built it to be unusable. The placement of the relays and the location of the constructor are ultimately your doing, not mine :P
The PZ has a Totem growing through the top of it. How is that MY doing?
You didn't move the constructor to another location or choose a different orientation for the generator.
3. Did you try moving it with collectors?
I couldn't understand your instructions.
What Jamz said. Build a collector in one of the green rings, and the constructor will move there.
4. How on earth did you beat the map without using the constructor? It shouldn't be possible to destroy the far left totem and AET without it.
Build a Relay in one of the upper PZ's, then another by the far left Totem. Build the Nullifier.
Aaaah... I didn't test if any of those enemies for proximity. The intended solution is, as Jamz said, move the constructor all the way over there and make your own PZ relay. But I suppose the fact that if you do it your way the forges get more aether and you can't put anything on the AET power zone to any useful effect makes up for the hassle cost.
You might want to consider having someone else read your instructions for clarity. I have fairly good (English) reading comprehension, but I think a lot of players will have a hard time figuring out the intent of the game. Obviously, a great deal of work went into it and you deserve all the kudos you can get.
H
Thank you ^_^
I unfortunately don't have access to people who understand much about cw game mechanics so I can't...
*realizes where he is posting this*
*facepalms*
Well, that was embarrassing of me...
Anyway I also wanted to put a bit of explanation as to why stuff works the way it does in-universe, which gets jumbled together with the explanations of how the player uses it. And of course it doesn't get stored into archived transmissions, so people who skip all conversations by force of habit no doubt end up going "what i do nao?!"
I plan to add more buildable units to the constructor for future missions, but exactly how to remind the player "how to craft a piston," so to speak, is going to be a toughie. I have some ideas, but whether they will work well I have yet to test. I may have to resort to the ultimate cop out, "read this forum thread so you can know what to do."
I too had a bit of trouble with the instructions. And my degree is in English Lit. and Linguistics. While reading this forum has helped with the PZ Constructor, I'm still confused about the +-shaped towers. I can't seem to make them do anything.
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 06:04:00 PM
...exactly how to remind the player "how to craft a piston," so to speak, is going to be a toughie....
As far as this goes, perhaps you can add one of those Message Disks that has the instructions inside. Or use CRPL to create a dialogue box when the game is paused and you hit certain key combinations. So, when the game pauses, you can place a small floating text box that says "For instructions on use, hit CTRL+F" or whatever, and when the player does that, the instructions dialogue comes up.
Quote from: Jamz on February 02, 2014, 05:17:49 PM
Heya planetfall.
Just wanted to say, I've played all 3 maps of yours from start to finish and I've enjoyed them all. I think it's great how you've come up with some innovative enemy units and behaviour and I really liked the way the enemy could "upgrade" themselves in this particular map.
I'm also quite intrigued with this story and how there's always some new discovery being made.
Regarding this particular map alone, I must say I'm quite disappointed by the rather low rating on it (so far 5.5). I get the feeling this may be due to the fact that some players on lower versions may be experiencing bugs and as a result not being able to enjoy the map and therefore giving it a low score.
I guess what I really want to say is that I hope these poor scores dont discourage you from continuing what you're doing because I dont think they truly reflect what it should be for this level. There are maps not as good as this one that are getting higher scores so this one definitely deserves more. Again, the reason I think it's not getting the scores is because of the issues people on lower versions are facing.
Keep up the work and I look forward to the next installment. :)
PS. Maybe in future maps, perhaps you could leave a note in the description about what version you made it in and recommend players to also update? ??? Just a thought
PSS. I played this in v1.73 and had no problems at all with any aspect of the map. Was able to destroy missiles and make use of the PZ constructor thingy... except that I didn't initially quite understand how it worked but it's possible it was just my poor ability to understand things.
*insert giant neon "THANKS" sign here*
Not only bugs that I had no hand in, but people are probably voting them down because of the difficulty, the confusing instructions, my relatively harsh of balancing... personal vendetta against me, perhaps... map 2 is my least favorite but has the highest rating :-\
Quote from: Jamz on February 02, 2014, 05:32:34 PM
I guess my only criticism for this map would be that I didn't quite like the way we had to move the constructor. I guess I would have preferred if you could just select it and designate a spot for it to land on, even if it moved extremely slowly. Maybe you could've made it a requirement that you have to supply X amount of energy to move it... ??? ... dunno, just another random thought. But I just found this current method of moving the constructor with collectors quite painstaking, especially when I had to keep terping the ground so that I could place a collector exactly where I needed to. Eventually I decided to give up taking it to where I wanted to, and just build a PZ Bertha instead (which was quite helpful anyway :D)
I intended the constructor to be annoying to use. The energy consumption to build the generator itself didn't feel like it was enough, and also I wanted extra constraints on how it could move (specifically, not across void or into creeper). Especially once the player has several levels of Energy Efficiency and a good collector net across the main landmass, the raw packet cost to use the thing was not enough to make it more than an annoyance. So early in the game, moving the constructor just means a little terraforming and collector-ing. Later it may mean demolishing infrastructure. Also, I wanted it to not be possible to put a PZgen so that it can upgrade an ore mine, because they don't get anything from PZs. I tried to make it spawn extra mines on the spot and increase production but that opened a can of worms and I couldn't get it to work, so I just made the ore deposits not aligned with the constructor's grid locations.
TL;DR I'm an aspiring game dev and I think about all these things.
Quote from: TLMike on February 02, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
I too had a bit of trouble with the instructions. And my degree is in English Lit. and Linguistics. While reading this forum has helped with the PZ Constructor, I'm still confused about the +-shaped towers. I can't seem to make them do anything.
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 06:04:00 PM
...exactly how to remind the player "how to craft a piston," so to speak, is going to be a toughie....
As far as this goes, perhaps you can add one of those Message Disks that has the instructions inside. Or use CRPL to create a dialogue box when the game is paused and you hit certain key combinations. So, when the game pauses, you can place a small floating text box that says "For instructions on use, hit CTRL+F" or whatever, and when the player does that, the instructions dialogue comes up.
...that's genius, actually. I'd thought of using a message artifact, but there's currently no way to respawn them containing actual messgaes if the player needs to check again. Only I'll probably do something like "Press CTRL-F for information about the structure under your cursor" so that the conversation doesn't get enormous and force the player to sift through it for the relevant information.
Regarding the plus-towers, (I am assuming you mean the gray ones with blue pipes on the side, not the small purple ones you build) those are Beam Stations. Place a Beam on the central square and it will consume less ammo and produce AC while firing. Build a PZ generator facing the station for maximum awesome!
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/16i5H1T.png)
They were introduced in my previous map, Beam Me Up (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=15385). I guess it's not fair to assume people will play my maps in order, considering there's next to no indication they're supposed to be played that way, but on the other hand if I explained everything at the start of each map it would take the player longer to read the intro than to play.
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 07:29:02 PM
... but on the other hand if I explained everything at the start of each map it would take the player longer to read the intro than to play.
One of the old-timer map-makers used to post comments/further instructions right in the map thread as soon as it was uploaded. I always check the thread for hints/help/WTH kinds of stuff.
Also - TO EMPHASIZE - that thumb's up in my first post was for real (as was the Yikes!). You're doing some amazing stuff here and I'm having a ball playing your games.
Thanks.
H
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 05:04:56 PM
Quote from: Lenori on February 02, 2014, 04:46:00 PM
How are we to get version 1.65? The update screen only shows v1.61.
Also, I've not been able to get the PZ to work. Spoiler
I've built a sheild in the middle and three relays, but it didn't look like it was charging up. I'm figuring that it needs to be charged with the whole 100 packets comment.
Get new versions from here: http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=14505.0
I made this with 1.71 but any version other than 1.72 should work (the missiles would cause the game to glitch out when beams were shooting them)
Yes, the constructor does need to be charged with 100 packets, unless you mean the PZ generator isn't charging up. In that case, it's not meant to have a visible ammo bar. If it's not consuming packets at all... that's a problem. Can you update and tell me if the problem persists?
After running the update- the constructor works.
oic. Thanks.
Awesome map, I played it and liked everything.
There are few issues though:
1. I guess you tried to do it as simple as possible, but I'm sure that operating constructor is still way to complex, and that's why map have so low rating. I figured it out after building PZ in unusable place.
2. Moving CN almost always cause short PZ disconnects, even though CN never was disconnected from network. Increasing PZ power from 3 to 4-5 might solve this issue. Otherwise it is just very annoying to keep loosing your berthas on PZ whenever you move base.
3. Could you do something about that sound? For me it was very annoying, so I was forces to play without sound.
Great map with a lot of interesting, new ideas.
Quote from: Altren on February 04, 2014, 05:26:18 AM
3. Could you do something about that sound? For me it was very annoying, so I was forces to play without sound.
The permanent sound effect on the power zones made me switch off the sound, too.
Also, I don't think that making a unit annoying to use is a good way to balance its power. I moved the constructor for a bit, created a single PZ and never bothered with it again. Moving it around is too tedious for my liking.
Quote from: Altren on February 04, 2014, 05:26:18 AM
Awesome map, I played it and liked everything.
There are few issues though:
1. I guess you tried to do it as simple as possible, but I'm sure that operating constructor is still way to complex, and that's why map have so low rating. I figured it out after building PZ in unusable place.
Do you mean that the instructions weren't clear enough, or that even with the instructions it was hard to use? (In my next map there will be a help system for crpl units, so if it's the former it will be less of an issue)
2. Moving CN almost always cause short PZ disconnects, even though CN never was disconnected from network. Increasing PZ power from 3 to 4-5 might solve this issue. Otherwise it is just very annoying to keep loosing your berthas on PZ whenever you move base.
I'm going to experiment with them a bit and see what works. I rarely move my base so I never noticed it in testing, sorry.
3. Could you do something about that sound? For me it was very annoying, so I was forces to play without sound.
For the next map I have changed the sound to "Weapons4" (loud) when it activates and "Stunned" (quiet) for constant operation. This seems to be a common complaint...
Quote from: eduran on February 04, 2014, 05:34:02 AM
Great map with a lot of interesting, new ideas.
Quote from: Altren on February 04, 2014, 05:26:18 AM
3. Could you do something about that sound? For me it was very annoying, so I was forces to play without sound.
The permanent sound effect on the power zones made me switch off the sound, too.
Also, I don't think that making a unit annoying to use is a good way to balance its power. I moved the constructor for a bit, created a single PZ and never bothered with it again. Moving it around is too tedious for my liking.
So is the "fuse multiple units into one" thing tedious as well?
I still want to constrain the way the constructor can move but I'm thinking of other ways to do it that don't require annoying repeated terraforming. My first idea is to point at the constructor and push WASD or arrow keys to move it, except I use those for map panning and speed changing, and so probably do most other people. Also if two constructors get on the same square, they would be basically as good as only one unit.
Maybe make a click to choose and the click to set destination, but the movement speed is really slow?
Quote from: planetfall on February 04, 2014, 07:16:08 PM
So is the "fuse multiple units into one" thing tedious as well?
I didn't mind it, you simply plop down four units and that's it.
My problem with the movement is that it takes a long time to set up a path. The constructor being slow is fine, I just don't want to spend minutes placing collectors and Terps along its path.
I ended up accidentally nuking the constructor as I nulli'd the totem above it, but from what I'm reading, I don't think I'd be able to use it anyway. So I guess that worked out well, but you may want to mod the CRPL for next time so that you can't accidentally destroy it.
Quote from: Th3ch053n0n3 on February 05, 2014, 03:51:28 PM
I ended up accidentally nuking the constructor as I nulli'd the totem above it, but from what I'm reading, I don't think I'd be able to use it anyway. So I guess that worked out well, but you may want to mod the CRPL for next time so that you can't accidentally destroy it.
I just tried, and could not nullify it. What game version are you running? It might be a new/old bug.
You have a really nice map here. But I think you ruined it a bit by integrating three new things at the same time, its too much :
1-upgrading creeper (fun) ,
2-missiles (fun)
3-the constructor (the idea is good but it is such a pain to move it around...)
I think the constructor is not suited for this map, as it is so annoying to move around, you don't want to use it for any strategic purpose and play around with it, you only want to solve the puzzle
Spoiler
bring it to the far left do reacg the totem
Nice work though !
Quote from: Hur on February 07, 2014, 01:02:01 PM
You have a really nice map here. But I think you ruined it a bit by integrating three new things at the same time, its too much :
1-upgrading creeper (fun) ,
2-missiles (fun)
3-the constructor (the idea is good but it is such a pain to move it around...)
I think the constructor is not suited for this map, as it is so annoying to move around, you don't want to use it for any strategic purpose and play around with it, you only want to solve the puzzle Spoiler
bring it to the far left do reacg the totem
Nice work though !
Thank you, and welcome!
My next map fixes the constructor being as annoying to move (it still requires a hefty amount of energy, though) and gives the player more freedom to play with it.
Also, there are other uses for it in this map, in particular building a PZ'd bertha/strafer/bomber/beam. Especially useful if you
Spoiler
move it to the right beam station and PZ it, then you have enough AC for years and missiles become nothing more than a nuisance.
Quote from: planetfall on February 07, 2014, 03:56:04 PM
Especially useful if you
Spoiler
move it to the right beam station and PZ it, then you have enough AC for years and missiles become nothing more than a nuisance.
Planetearth to planetfall: I trust that the words in your Spoiler have some meaning to you, but I can't make head nor tail of them.
:)
Would you be a little more explicit please?
Quote from: Helper on February 07, 2014, 04:12:03 PM
Quote from: planetfall on February 07, 2014, 03:56:04 PM
Especially useful if you
Spoiler
move it to the right beam station and PZ it, then you have enough AC for years and missiles become nothing more than a nuisance.
Planetearth to planetfall: I trust that the words in your Spoiler have some meaning to you, but I can't make head nor tail of them.
:)
Would you be a little more explicit please?
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/16i5H1T.png)
Now you're talking!
Us old INfantry guys do best with pictures.
I saw that in one of your prior posts, but didn't understand the significance.
Thanks for going the extra mile.
H
look im makeing the others hard (remakeing them)
Spoiler
i got mad when i was not able to compelete them so i made this one easy so i could compelete it
Quote from: creeperwworld3 on February 15, 2014, 12:56:43 PM
look im makeing the others hard (remakeing them) Spoiler
Interesting, I always thought this was the easiest one...
Quote from: planetfall on February 02, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
4. How on earth did you beat the map without using the constructor? It shouldn't be possible to destroy the far left totem and AET without it.
I found the constructor rather useless and had no problem beating it on my second try (the first time I didn't have adequate beams with my assault force and a missile got through) without it. I don't even see how it would be useful there.
To get that totem you use a PZ relay from the base up top.
I think I remember planetfall saying somewhere that the "idea" was that you'd have to use the constructor to create an artificial PZ on which you could then build a relay to get to that totem. That PZ from the base up top was an oversight and it wasn't supposed to provide a means to getting to that totem.
Great Maps!
A couple thoughts: 1) The constructor is very clunky, and a little frustrating to work with and build around. Perhaps this could be upgraded in later maps to something simpler like an expensive unit that moves very slowly, and will sacrifice itself to create a PZ. 2) I found that the upper half of this map was very interesting, but difficult to get involved with until sufficient resources had been gathered - at which point I simply overwhelmed it and only used 1 or 2 of the PZs before wiping the map clean. A more incremental approach or more room to build might allow for a continuously interesting play.
Thanks again for a great map!
Great puzzle map! Lots of challenges while providing the player the opportunity to build and expand at there own pace. I haven't read all the posts, so this is probably covered. But the custom tech near the lower righthand corner wasn't helpful after the totem was nullified. I really like the totem & anti air craft shield at center-left. The missiles was a headache. Which made this map great.