I saw one suggestion that suggested it make it infinite if you can get the tech but I dont think we need that, as much as be able to increase it to 1020. I used to get my energy to around 1000 in the old games so I could launch a big attack really quickly and I think it would be useful.
I think I would really prefer that energy upgrades are equivilent to ore upgrades in both the number and effect of upgrades, and obviously the energy distribution rate should be equal to demand if the energy is availabe.
at a certain point the amount of energy in irrelevant because the LS can only send out packets so fast. It is possible to make a large army, launch an attack, have all your weapon run out of ammo, and still have a full green bar. I am not sure when that happens in-terms of energy storage but when I did it I had energy production in the low 70s. I'm not sure how big my army was but it was large.
That happens due to the packet output cap, which is at 60 depletion. However, in an arbitrary looparound we can blame on thepenguin, if you have any crystal energy, even one unit, you can exceed the output limit without breaking into your crystal reserves and maintain an output of 150+ indefinitely.
that's really good to know now ill have to pay attention to the crystal storage....
Quote from: mthw2vc on July 08, 2011, 12:17:50 PM
That happens due to the packet output cap, which is at 60 depletion. However, in an arbitrary looparound we can blame on thepenguin, if you have any crystal energy, even one unit, you can exceed the output limit without breaking into your crystal reserves and maintain an output of 150+ indefinitely.
Ah, I heard before that crystal energy could be used to go over the 60 units output cap. But the fact that the crystal energy is not being depleted in the progress (I was assuming it did) totally sucks (in my opinion). Why do you want to make a loophole like that? What's the difference of having 1 crystal energy which makes you able to send, say, twice as much packets a second? I don't see any reason to have it this way, can someone explain it to me? (except that you might use it on some maps, too cap some titan emitter for example. And then afterwards post on the forum you completed these maps, and other people on the forum will wonder how you ever did it, if they are not aware of this dirty trick)
Could this please be changed? I don't mind in which way (1: always have the 60 energy cap. 2: or no energy cap at all. 3: every unit of energy above your energy cap will deplete crystals, even if you have energy in your storage). I really hate this kind of illogical aspects of some games
Apparently, ThePenguin, during Beta, complained about being unable to use all of his surplus crystal energy later in games due to the limit, so the ability to use more than 60 was added as long as you had crystal energy. However, this is obviously the wrong fix, and if the complaint had been that he was unable to spend his energy as fast as it was demanded, we wouldn't have this problem today.
What's a problem about it?
You make it sounds like some dirty trick, or entirely different gameplay when you obtained some crystal energy. Well, it's not.
1. You always use energy generated by your reactors before the crystal energy reserves are addressed.
2. As long as you have crystal energy you can use any amount of energy per second (so obtained crystals can be used as fast as you like).
These game mechanics apply always and to anyone.
Bear in mind that:
- You hardly ever need more than 60 energy per second. Often you'll finish the map much faster when going for the emitters/gateways rather than building more reactors. Fighting very strong titans with regular weapons is the only exception and players who love doing this will probably also like the constraint this implies (see my next point). I know I do!
- When you use a little more energy than you generate, your crystal energy will be gone and you will starve quickly. It's almost an art to keep your energy consumption at a fixed rate, especially when more launchers start firing after opening a chamber.
I don't see why this is a problem. It's something extra you got (although you'll hardly ever use it). I think we all should thank TP for suggesting it and Virgil for implementing this nice additional feature.
Thanks for your quick reply. I see your point, but I don't agree with it.
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 09, 2011, 11:18:23 PM
What's a problem about it?
Well, to me it seems unrelated. What has "having some crystal energy" to do with your max energy output?
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 09, 2011, 11:18:23 PM
You make it sounds like some dirty trick, or entirely different gameplay when you obtained some crystal energy. Well, it's not.
1. You always use energy generated by your reactors before the crystal energy reserves are addressed.
2. As long as you have crystal energy you can use any amount of energy per second (so obtained crystals can be used as fast as you like).
These game mechanics apply always and to anyone.
Of course, the rules will work the same for everyone, but rules should be logical. And this one is, in my opinion, not.
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 09, 2011, 11:18:23 PM
Bear in mind that:
- You hardly ever need more than 60 energy per second. Often you'll finish the map much faster when going for the emitters/gateways rather than building more reactors. Fighting very strong titans with regular weapons is the only exception and players who love doing this will probably also like the constraint this implies (see my next point). I know I do!
- When you use a little more energy than you generate, your crystal energy will be gone and you will starve quickly. It's almost an art to keep your energy consumption at a fixed rate, especially when more launchers start firing after opening a chamber.
I know that in most maps you don't need 60 energy per second. But that's not the point here, we're talking about having or not having a limit of 60 energy per second. So all maps where you don't worry about this limit. I understand that it's not easy to always keep crystal energy, but what does it matter. There are dozens of things which will be hard to do. But why should doing such a thing grant me some extra unrelated power (the power to send more packets)?
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 09, 2011, 11:18:23 PM
I don't see why this is a problem. It's something extra you got (although you'll hardly ever use it). I think we all should thank TP for suggesting it and Virgil for implementing this nice additional feature.
Okay, let me give another example.
Me: Hey, I've got a great idea. Let's put a limit on the number of mortars you have at the same time. About 30 or so?
You: Why do you want that?
Me: It will make some maps extra hard, and it prevents some lag.
You: Okay, but some maps will be impossible then.
Me: Okay, then let's make this addition to the rule: If you have not built a single blaster in that map yet, you can build unlimited mortars. So you can choose: built blasters and mortars, and then maximum amount of mortars is 30, or no blasters and then you can have as many mortars as you want.
You: What is the relation between "having built a blaster" and "the mortar limit of 30".
Me: There's not. But I don't see the problem with it, since it will be hard to complete maps without a single blaster. You can almost see it as an art to do it without them. And in most maps you don't need 30 mortars anyway, so there's not much of a problem.
Hopefully, you found this idea as ridiculous as I did. But then let me ask this. What is the difference between this request, and between the crystal energy/max energy output? I fail to see it.
PS: We're going a little off-topic, maybe we should start a new topic?
Quote from: florrat on July 10, 2011, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 09, 2011, 11:18:23 PM
1. You always use energy generated by your reactors before the crystal energy reserves are addressed.
2. As long as you have crystal energy you can use any amount of energy per second (so obtained crystals can be used as fast as you like).
Well, to me it seems unrelated. What has "having some crystal energy" to do with your max energy output?
Of course, the rules will work the same for everyone, but rules should be logical. And this one is, in my opinion, not.
I see your point, but when you apply rules 1 and 2, it's just a nice side-effect that you can use to your advantage in some rare cases. See it as 1 + 1 = 3.
Quote from: florrat on July 10, 2011, 09:38:56 AM
I know that in most maps you don't need 60 energy per second. But that's not the point here, we're talking about having or not having a limit of 60 energy per second. So all maps where you don't worry about this limit. I understand that it's not easy to always keep crystal energy, but what does it matter. There are dozens of things which will be hard to do. But why should doing such a thing grant me some extra unrelated power (the power to send more packets)?
The alternative would be to always have the cap at 60 energy per second (like it used to be in beta stage). This would mean you wouldn't be able to use large supplies of crystal energy (like on Day 20) very fast. Possible, but tedious, so I prefer the current solution. It also allows us to fight 200M+ titan emitters with regular weapons, something that wouldn't be possible without this feature.
Now you may wonder: why have that cap at 60 anyway? I'll try to explain as far as my knowledge goes.
You need to know that AS3 isn't exactly the most efficient language regarding processing speed. It however offers the ability the develop Flash games that will reach many players (see Virgil's blog for more details about this,
here (http://knucklecracker.com/blog/index.php/2010/05/game-2-some-considerations) and
here (http://knucklecracker.com/blog/index.php/2010/06/toxic-air)). The cap of 60 energy per second is actually a cap of 2 energy per frame. This ensures a maximum of only 2 movement paths that have to be calculated per frame (besides Creeper calculations, weapon movements & targeting, graphics rendering, etc., all within 33 milliseconds). Determining movement paths (if one exists in the first place for a unit requesting energy) is rather time consuming. Without a cap dozens of units could be requesting and receiving energy in the same frame. This frame would take very long to process, which would prevent smooth rendering and fluent gameplay.
This isn't a big deal for a few very hard maps; these players will probably know what to expect when using crystal energy and accept the slowdown (a drop from 30 fps to less than 10 fps isn't rare). For the average map and the average player (maybe using a bit older/slower computer) this could really get annoying, especially because it isn't necessary for normal gameplay. A maximum capacity for energy output makes sense, so this trade-off will be beneficial most of the time. Developing is -like anything else in life- about making choices and I believe the right one has been made here by spreading the workload over multiple frames.
Quote from: florrat on July 10, 2011, 09:38:56 AM
Okay, let me give another example.
[...]
Like I said the 2 rules still apply and you now know the reasoning behind it. Crystal energy just offers an additional ability. Use it to your advantage if you like.
Also maybe nice to know you will be able to limit the amount of launchers (or any other unit) to 30 when creating custom maps in the editor, with or without blasters. ;)
Quote from: florrat on July 10, 2011, 09:38:56 AM
PS: We're going a little off-topic, maybe we should start a new topic?
True, but I decided to answer here anyway to get things clear. The moderation team can split this topic off if desired.
I hope this answers your questions. :) Please consider that choices regarding game mechanics not only concern the (logical) story line, but also performance, enjoyable gameplay and the way the game is being perceived as a whole.
I don't see the problem with all of this... but how about an upgrade like:
Start at 60 pps
1) 80 pps (12 Technytes)
2) 100 pps (20 Technytes)
3) 120 pps (28 Technytes)
4) 140 pps (36 Technytes)
5) 160 pps (44 Technytes)
Just a suggestion.
EDIT: And still have crystal infinite pps
Quote from: Wolf Shadow on July 10, 2011, 12:48:28 PM
I don't see the problem with all of this... but how about an upgrade like:
Start at 60 pps
1) 80 pps (12 Technytes)
2) 100 pps (20 Technytes)
3) 120 pps (28 Technytes)
4) 140 pps (36 Technytes)
5) 160 pps (44 Technytes)
Just a suggestion.
EDIT: And still have crystal infinite pps
How about an option in the option menu to manually increase the maxiumum rate, so as to allow people who are willing to take the FPS loss, can increase their output to a maximum of, say, 180, at least as a test.
To be able to compare highscores the conditions have to be the same for everyone. Maps have been played and scores have been set, so don't expect any changes at this point.
Just save that last bit of crystal energy and do your thing. (And again, what's the problem?)
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 10, 2011, 02:16:39 PM
(And again, what's the problem?)
I agree. WHAT is the problem?
I agree there is no real problem although if I had any thing to say about it before I would have suggested a sliding cap that equals the grater of 60 fps or half you total energy storage + crystal energy. That would get rid of the cap with out being ridiculous and allow all crystals to be used.
just my 2 cents (I wish I was active on the forums after CW1 and during CW2 development)
Quote from: Wolf Shadow on July 10, 2011, 02:36:19 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 10, 2011, 02:16:39 PM
(And again, what's the problem?)
I agree. WHAT is the problem?
The problem now appears to be that because highscores are already submitted, and noone is willing to wipe them to allow a fix to what really seems to be a defect in the game, so regardless of any solutions anyone comes up with, There is no possibility of a fix.
Quote from: Ranakastrasz on July 10, 2011, 03:42:40 PM
The problem now appears to be that because highscores are already submitted, and noone is willing to wipe them to allow a fix to what really seems to be a defect in the game, so regardless of any solutions anyone comes up with, There is no possibility of a fix.
Man, you really know how to interpret things incorrectly, or are you just trolling? Please read
this post (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=7387.msg47909#msg47909) again.
As for making changes (not fixes) to the game: no unnecessary changes (affecting the scores or not) will be made, especially because the game is great as it is, but if Virgil adds improvements he will certainly take the scores into account when making decisions.
As for fixing bugs: only things that are broken need to be fixed.
If you don't mind I step out of the discussion here, because it's no use repeating the same things over and over and I think the 'how' and 'why' are both clear now.
Quote from: Ranakastrasz on July 08, 2011, 12:15:38 AM
I think I would really prefer that energy upgrades are equivilent to ore upgrades in both the number and effect of upgrades, and obviously the energy distribution rate should be equal to demand if the energy is availabe.
Quote from: Ranakastrasz on July 10, 2011, 03:42:40 PM
The problem now appears to be that because highscores are already submitted, and noone is willing to wipe them to allow a fix to what really seems to be a defect in the game, so regardless of any solutions anyone comes up with, There is no possibility of a fix.
Reading your first and last posts, I do not see what the issue is that you claim is "broken" and needs a fix.
In ancient pre-beta history, Karsten75 was probably responsible for some of this issue. The early versions of the game would use ore and gem resources before depleting any resources generated by reactors or rigs. He complained that this seemed illogical to tap a source that need not be depleted while the energy production from reactors would go to waste if there was no storage for them. That seemed to make sense and Virgil switched the algorithm to consume first from the generated resources and then from the resources that could be dug up. I hope this much is clear to all.
Then later, in beta, it became apparent that for those with huge farms of resource generators, it would never be possible to utilize the gem energy, since all energy needs for "normal" consumption could be met from the generated resources. At this time Virgil introduced a clever little gimmick in the game. One could, if one had an inventory of resources, consume those resources at the rate of the stored resource (energy in this instance).
This brings an interesting wrinkle to game play. If one is careful in husbanding ones mined resources, the energy cap becomes less of a limitation and makes certain strategies possible - the best demonstration I've seen of this was Kithros's famous video showing how he did Day 20 in the story missions without using one single unit of stored energy - giving him the theoretical ability to use 2,000 energy/sec in a final assault.
If you see this as a defect that affects game play, I'd like to read a justification for what aspect of the game it breaks and why it should be changed.
OK, I Suppose the main reason I do not like this method of implementation to fix the initial problem that had this (patch? fix? Change?) is because I have trouble keeping above a deficit. I think that it would be possible to manage this by either planning out how much power you will have and make sure you do not overbuild to such an extent that you deplete your crystal supply, however, that is a lot harder for me at least, than I wish it was. I think that because of the added permanent disadvantage of once you hit deficit you permanently lose packet production rate, rather than the temporary effect of everything slowing down. (unless you overbuild sufficiently that in some of the more difficult levels than you get wiped out.) I suppose I will have to just try harder to predict the future results of my actions.