Knuckle Cracker

At least that is the working title.... I may change it before I'm done.

Anyway, there have been questions about what is coming up next so I have thought a bit about different possibilities.  Yes, I want to do some facebook integration and achievements for the game.  This is what I'm currently working on.  Beyond that, though, I have an idea for an expansion and I'd like to share some of the current thoughts on this.  Note that it is just in the planning phase right now, so everything is subject to change.

Here would be the seed for the story:
--
"As you vanquished the Creeper Nexus and saved your great city from destruction, a hole was torn through many realities.  Never before had the power of a Creeper Nexus been funneled through a Rift to a galactic core.  Space itself was torn as the corrupted power of the Nexus was scattered through an infinity of parallel realities.  Galaxies, much like your own, across an uncountably large expanse of parallel universes received the essence of the Nexus and its ever expanding agent the Creeper.  Through the salvation of your own galaxy you doomed others to destruction.  Platius, the wise and last of a great race of beings, having not foreseen this eventuality reappeared to you when he learned of these events.  As he dropped to his knees he was overcome with the grief of having doomed countless beings to destruction.  As he collapsed and fell into a great sleep from which there would be no stirring, he only handed you a tablet and said, "Take this and find the source.... the fate of all realities now rests with your people... go before all is lost young one.... go now."
--

So you know that with CW I have tried to push the boundaries of the expected for strategy games within the confines of the smallest possible game platform.  CW is about ideas not yet explored, not about 3d graphics, surround sound, and a movie production set.  This is something I can do as an indie developer because I don't have anybody to tell me 'no'.

As for the game play in the expansion itself....  well I would like to try something either not done, or not done often.  I want to create a space of worlds so large no one person could even come close to playing all of the maps.   Populated across these worlds will be hidden artifacts that unlock secrets and access to more worlds.  The location of these worlds will become known once any player of CW discovers them.  So imagine there was a set of 10,000 worlds.  Say there are 10 artifacts on 10 of those worlds.  To find an artifact you have to play a world, win it, and then you discover if there is one of the 10 artifacts on that world.  Once you do this and post a score, this special world becomes known to anybody who plays the game, and you become known as the discoverer of the world.  Other CW players choose other un-played worlds as they explore this space.

So even though 10,000 worlds sound like a lot... if there are 1000 players of CW that play 10-15 of these worlds at random there is a good chance the special worlds will be found pretty quickly.  Note that the location and discovery of these worlds would be held by knucklecracker, but each person's game would show all of this on a big grid (say 100x100).  So when you go to play a fusionspace game, you would see all of the worlds that have been tried and the ones that have not.  You'd see any of the special worlds (a bright glowing square in the grid perhaps) that have been found.  Typically you would pick an un-played map and play it.  If you get lucky you'll find a special artifact.  Once all ten artifacts are found, any given player must play those ten worlds to unlock the next parallel reality (another set of 10,000 worlds).  And there is a virtually unlimited number of systems....

Note that all of the numbers I used were examples, they might need to be higher or lower.

Now how can I generate millions of worlds?  Well I thought I'd get you guys to do all of the maps.  We have over 100 so far... :)  Just kidding (of course).  I have developed a technique that uses fractals, perlin noise, and some other cool stuff that can generate many millions of different maps.  A kind of 'AI' for making maps.  Now instead of just throwing this "infini-map" generator into the game, I thought it might be cool to create a meta-exploration game across all of those maps.  That is where the fusionspace story and idea comes from.  Note that for anyone who doesn't really care about the meta-exploration game, they can completely ignore it and instead just play a new map every day for the rest of their lives (for example).  Or people can choose to post the coordinates of worlds they find cool and interesting.  After all, when you dial up the coordinates for a world you may be the only person to ever play that world!  If it is really cool, you might want others to know about it.

Now I realize this might sound crazy, and it might be.  Some of you may like it, some of you may hate it.  At the very least I see it as a way to give a player many, many, MANY more missions.  At the most I see it as a way to create distributed interest for the game across the community at large.  Members of the 'Creeper Nation' essentially work in a distributed fashion to unlock the secrets of a larger meta game...

Anyway, these are some thoughts I am currently mulling around.  I wanted to share them even though I have not thought through them completely yet.  And oh yeah, before anybody asks... as long as CW sales remain strong there is no reason I see to charge for this expansion.  It will just be an extension to the current game and only serve to add even more value...

Wow. First thoughts..

I truly like the idea of an infinite space game. It makes sense in terms of space.

I'm wondering if you could modify it a touch. So perhaps players can form teams of 1 or more and each team (I bag the Knuckle Cracker team!) gets a different starting point. and they may or may not ever meet another team? If you meet another team, then the team maps merge to show all available explored space of the teams.

So you would have a densely populated (for want of a better word) 'inner core' and sort of outlying regions like the wild west of old.

This would go good with multiplayer if you could find a way to put it in the game.

I think this is an awesome idea. Basically unlimited playability. I also like the team aspect it could contain. Teams create a community and keep people interested for a longer time.   

And maybe you could get some people to make maps for it if they wanted to...

Maybe a map generator?

I've seen my father's old terrain maker, in which it starts off with a square (Or whatever shape you set it to) and generates a random number.

If the random number is more or less than .5, it cuts the map in a random place, and raises 1 side of it by a random amount.

Then it generates 2 random numbers, and raises whichever is chosen. It does this hundreds of times until a smooth terrain is made, and there is your random terrain!

This could be good for creating unlimited maps, as it will set a random amount of emitters, random amount of totems, (if you're lucky) a nano schematic, and whatever is in the new game  :o.

I like the idea of the Infinite Map Maker program thingy deal. I just hope that iti s possible to get the Creeper to try and think aka throwing more Creeper into a certain area, kinda like a gooey liquid instead of just a normal liquid. Spores targetting needs to be more precise, aka avoiding SAMs target areas and/or sending more spores in one spot to attempt to penetrate the protective shield.

You will have to attempt to lower the CPU Usage tons more if you are really looking for bigger maps. I had the optimal size for my game and still lagged like crazy. Took me over an hour to finish a level that only took 14 minutes to beat D:

The quasi-continual missions will be fun, to a point. The game is going to get dull and boring after a while. Upgrades/more buildings/more unlockables, etc etc are going to have to be added... You can do a "Beat 5 maps and you get this, etc"

As for the title it could be:

CW: Virgil's Crazy and Wacked Out Adventures!

_k

it all sounds like a great idea but personally i dont like the expense of losing the story element to the game, unless you can somehow write a ton of storylines so that there's a general thread of logic through all the maps it's not going to have the interesting and just crazy enough to be out there but still believable story line that i loved about the original story, like kamron said, with infinite maps comes infinitely greater possibilities for people to get bored of the game and not wait on your next release
i dont think it's a bad idea just that i'm not a fan of meta games

If you are planning on doing this Virgil, be sure that you have many many more towers and different kinds of enemies. Such as variations of Spores or something..

More "new" enemies, etc etc.

_k

Maybe you could have a seperate story for a line of planets in a seperate campaign.

What I hear you guys saying is that CW1 is 'finished' and you either want a CW2 or a more traditional expansion pack to CW1.  By 'more traditional'  I mean an expansion pack that has some set of missions that extend the story and introduces a few new units to the mix.

Note that things like giant maps and different fundamental game play elements are all something that would have to go into a CW2 since they would require a new or very altered engine and would be incompatible with CW1 maps, etc.

I'll also interpret the feedback on the 'infinite-map' generator to be that it isn't really needed or desired.  Between the 55 built in missions, the map editor, and the community made maps there are already enough maps for any person to get their 'fill' of the game.

I'll leave this topic up for a few more days so anybody who wants can add their opinion.

I first want to see CW1 expand, then we can see about adding a CW2 to the mix.

_k

the thing that a lot of people either miss/forget/overlook is that KC is only one person, to do wat he did took how long now, and im guessing to make a CW 2 would take 2/3/4/5 times as long if he were to implement all of teh things we've suggested in teh forums let alone come up with another EPIC story

Quote from: virgilw on January 03, 2010, 01:51:54 PM
What I hear you guys saying is that CW1 is 'finished' and you either want a CW2 or a more traditional expansion pack to CW1.  By 'more traditional'  I mean an expansion pack that has some set of missions that extend the story and introduces a few new units to the mix.

I agree that CW1 is "finished." Some added units or other game elements would be something I'd purchase an expansion pack for.

I have been thinking a lot about your CW2 idea. HEre is how I imagine it would be interesting.

All players that buy the game gets a "story" of at least 10 worlds. The 10th world unlocks a random coordinate set for 10 computer-generated worlds. Perhaps at the user's choice they can then join a "federation." If they join a federation, they get access to the federation's maps, otherwise they get only the map that they have explored. If they leave the federation, they lose access to the federation's maps. As you play the "known worlds" you may either unlock additional units or map coordinates (not often, perhaps one in 10). THere is some indication on whther other players have played the worlds you have played, something that would indicate "lnown space" versus "unknown space."

At some point in time there might be meaning to "known space" - perhaps you can only join in federation with other players/federations in your "known space?"

So you could wander forever amongst the planets or end up in the core of things - no-one can predict their future in the game.

As for CW1, having played the in-game story, conquest and special ops maps, I find most of the custom maps lacking. I'm concerned that if you keep generating computer-generated maps it will simply get boring after having beaten 20-30 maps in the same manner. So you might have to keep evolving the spore based on player experience and keep adding new/different weapons/capabilities so that the gameplay keeps evolving. For instance, if I have Thor technology, there isn't much that is going to beat me, but OTOH, if I don't have blaster/mortar technology, I'm not going to beat a world with rampant spore growth and perhaps that world has the key to further worlds. So there is going to have to be a delicate balance.

One game I particularly liked to play was GemCraft (armorgames and Kongregate). In this game, players got skill points that aided in their capabilities. Now for players like me, eventually I had >10,000 skill points that I could no longer use (and that was frustrating), but it added to the gamepaly early on when you could adjust balance of skills to different aspects.

How does that figure into this? Well, suppose that the terrain gets worse, less flat, but collectors can evolve so that they are able to collect energy from different elevations, with more skill, with less penalty.  This makes more uneven terrain possible which might not have been possible otherwise. or perhaps you can increase the lenth of connections between relays. You get the idea.

I hope this kind of discussion is useful to you.

we know that kc is only one person (or some of us do at least) we're just eager to put our many ideas forward, even though we know the poor guy cant keep up :P

Just an idea.  Generate a fixed number of worlds, say, 10,000 (or whatever number can be managed).  Each player or team of players have an 'identity' name. When an identity conquers a world it then bears their identity.
A schematic of the 10,000 worlds can be accessed by all players and the identities with the top 10 (?) number of worlds conquered have their worlds shown in an assigned color (red for number 1, blue for number 2 etc).   The identities do not 'own their color - they win or lose it as the game progresses.
Any identity could conquer or reconquer any world. It would need to be possible to search out worlds conquered by other identities so that tactics of conquest can be applied.
The aim is to conquer the universe (10,000 worlds) and the first to gain 50% plus wins. An identity would know how many worlds they have conquered and, thus, how far they are away from the 'top 10'.
The main idea is role reversal  - in the game as it stands the blue stuff conquers and spreads but in this battle it is the identities which conquer and spread. When the game is complete it starts over but a role of honour keeps the name of the winning identities.
It  might be simpler for teams to have a forum upon which you can adopt an identity if you want to be in a team rather than going to all the complexity of online gaming?

Quote from: TheBuilder on January 03, 2010, 02:31:32 PM
the thing that a lot of people either miss/forget/overlook is that KC is only one person, to do wat he did took how long now, and im guessing to make a CW 2 would take 2/3/4/5 times as long if he were to implement all of teh things we've suggested in teh forums let alone come up with another EPIC story

Quote from: Aurzel on January 04, 2010, 02:05:37 AM
we know that kc is only one person (or some of us do at least) we're just eager to put our many ideas forward, even though we know the poor guy cant keep up :P

Thats why I keep suggesting a developer team.  ;)

Quote from: Dranar on January 04, 2010, 07:43:19 PM
Thats why I keep suggesting a developer team.  ;)

And before Virgil takes you up on it he should read  The Mythical Man-Month (http://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262659230&sr=8-1) by Frederick Brooks.

Keep it to one person, don't have to pay anyone or listen to anyone.

Don't hire anyone, Virgil and keep it all to yourself.

_k

:(

I don't want to be paid, I just want to be helpful.  ;D

I do appreciate the offers for help that I get.  Now honestly, CW for me is a solitary effort as I need it to be that.  Group work and management is already something I get more than enough of in other endeavors.

Professional software development is also something I try to do with CW and it's a little different than a casual group, or open source style development.  It takes a ridiculous amount of time, skill, and experience to do even simple things at the 99th percentile or higher.  And it takes 99th percentile ideas and implementation to get noticed in today's market (on average... there are always exceptions to this rule).

So I plan to keep CW solo for now... but thanks again for the offers of help, it is very flattering.

Hmm... How about some Extra chalenge maps that dont let you build blaster and mortars but you start out with some on the map, or  maps without anti air rocket thing but still shoot out spores, you would have to build blasters everywhere. Do you get what i mean? Limit certain things to make it alot more chalenging. An all mortar map would be evil

you can already do that when you make your own maps

Quote from: Aurzel on January 06, 2010, 04:15:36 AM
you can already do that when you make your own maps

Speaking of map making, considering that wide screen monitors are becoming more the norm, new maps should reflect this, whether the maps are 16:10 ratio (like screens with a 1920 x 1200 resolution) or 16:9 ratio (like screens with a 1920 x 1080 resolution).  I'm partial to the 16:9 ratio- more people are connecting their large-screen LCD and Plasma TVs to their computers today, which use the 16:9 format (1080p).

The Map Creator program creates 70 x 48 maps, which translates roughly to a 4:3 ratio (4.375 to 3 actually); Simply expanding the map to a full size wide screen view would only require expanding the width of the map to 85 units... 85 x 48 is somewhat of an odd resolution to mess with, but if we decrease the height from 48 to 45 units, a map grid of 80 x 45 will give us a perfect 16:9 format. A 72 x 45 grid is a perfect 16:10 ratio too.

I don't know if we want to increase the grid size too much... As it is, the in-game maps can require a half-hour or more to complete... Increasing the playfield size may make the time to complete each map too daunting.  The current 70 x 48 maps have 3,360 square units... grids of 72 x 45 and 80 x 45 are 3,240 and 3,600 square units respectively.

Playing a 16:9 CW2 on a 4:3 monitor should, if the window were expanded to full screen, produce the black bars above and below the map the same way viewing a 16:9 DVD on a 4:3 TV does (in the same way expanding CW1's game window to full-screen on a 16:9 monitor produces black bars on the left and right).

Of course this is all moot depending on whether you want to retain "total" backward compatibility with CW1 or not.

If CW2 were to use wide-screen maps, then (eventually) either CW1's Map Creator program would have to be modified to make 16:9 maps, or a second Map Creator program would need to be written specifically for CW2.

Furthermore, if the Map Creator program is modified to create 16:9 maps as well as 4:3 maps for CW1, then you'll either have to use a new extension, like *.cw2, to differentiate the new 16:9 maps from 4:3 maps used by CW1, or modify CW1 accept both size maps.  Although, I don't know what it would entail to modify CW1's code to accept newer 16:9 player-created maps...

Thanks for all of the wonderful and helpful feedback.  I think I have enough from this thread, so I'll lock it and un-sticky it so it can fade away.

Thanks again for the input!