This topic is for discussion of map #9561: AZAZEL-2
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=9561)
Author: AkuninsDude
Size: 99x99
Desc:
Can you give any hint how to do this? Before i can "save" a good emitter, the ones around escalade
Quote from: LeonDampf on June 27, 2021, 11:19:13 AM
Can you give any hint how to do this? Before i can "save" a good emitter, the ones around escalade
Look to your left Leon, loook to your leeeeft.
Yum.....is that you? ;D
Quote from: marvinitfox on June 27, 2021, 12:12:03 PM
Quote from: LeonDampf on June 27, 2021, 11:19:13 AM
Can you give any hint how to do this? Before i can "save" a good emitter, the ones around escalade
Look to your left Leon, loook to your leeeeft.
So? You can capture 8 emitters and 6 spore towers over there. The beam will take care of the spores from the NW. I see nothing I can hope to do about the spores to the NE. I have captured a stopper but I can't take the factory to make use of it. My base keeps getting obliterated by fire from the NE and even if it wasn't I see nothing to do.
Nice map. That was a bit extreme, since you need to claim shooters fast and have enough energy to power up friendly tower before the emitter activation.
The rest is more like a regular map, interesting and balanced.
Loosing some buildings to spores is a bit annoying, but not a problem,
Quote from: D0m0nik on June 27, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Yum.....is that you? ;D
unfair question! :D
if you can play without using Singularity weapon! it can be :-\
BTW: Long time ago I really had as friend writer Boris Akunin (Now living in London). We created together Japanese chemical-technology dictionary...
Sounds like you have had quite a career Yum. Shame I will never read it!!
argle brargggh.. i think your map gabe me drain bammage.
toom uch sPores!
Hey Yum!
I miss your awesome maps on CW3. It's too bad I really, really didn't like CW4. I disliked it so bad I got a refund. So now I am stuck with mostly replaying old maps on CW3.
Schizo
Quote from: yum-forum on June 27, 2021, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: D0m0nik on June 27, 2021, 01:45:49 PM
Yum.....is that you? ;D
unfair question! :D
if you can play without using Singularity weapon! it can be :-\
BTW: Long time ago I really had as friend writer Boris Akunin. We created together Japanese chemical-technology dictionary...
Quote from: Altren on June 27, 2021, 01:54:35 PM
Nice map. That was a bit extreme, since you need to claim shooters fast and have enough energy to power up friendly tower before the emitter activation.
The rest is more like a regular map, interesting and balanced.
Loosing some buildings to spores is a bit annoying, but not a problem,
But what do you do about the spores from the NE?
And even without that I'm stuck, I'm not seeing any place to attack.
Quote from: Loren Pechtel on June 27, 2021, 09:59:50 PM
Quote from: Altren on June 27, 2021, 01:54:35 PM
Nice map. That was a bit extreme, since you need to claim shooters fast and have enough energy to power up friendly tower before the emitter activation.
The rest is more like a regular map, interesting and balanced.
Loosing some buildings to spores is a bit annoying, but not a problem,
But what do you do about the spores from the NE?
the same question. even after waiting until gate 2 can be opened and an enhanced beam can be built, it cannot cope with the number of spores. and floods the creeper at 1900 and that's it ...
And even without that I'm stuck, I'm not seeing any place to attack.
Quote from: Loren Pechtel on June 27, 2021, 09:59:50 PM
But what do you do about the spores from the NE?
And even without that I'm stuck, I'm not seeing any place to attack.
Long, rambling discussion with plenty of spoilery advice, so:
Spoiler
As long as you do not allow the spores to bomb your friendly spore towers, you can just rebuild after a barrage. Your Forge and CN *should* have enough endurance to sit in the creep for a minute while your permanent AC emitter regains lost ground.
To reduce the damage from an attack, consider putting sacrificial Terps out in the wilderness, where they can draw some fire but where the resulting creep spillage will not be a problem.
It is *imperative* that you get the SW towers converted before they start bleeding creep.
I also found it imperative to stopper the NE yellow, and put a 2-wall to the south of the adjacent absorber, to keep the Yellow portal network pure. If you allow your yellow portal or the nearby emitter to convert that absorber, you have a flow problem preventing assault on the NE block of spores.
It is a very, very good idea to take out one or more of the absorbers directly around your CN. They all provide PZ.
I used one for my Beams, protecting the CN region for (most) spores.
I used one for Reactor-PZ, for power.
I used one to provide a relay bridge to the west, allowing power to the various multipliers there.
*don't* overbuild in the west. You cannot provide air defense there, and if you lose even one of your spore towers for one second, it's game over. Rather leave the region unbuilt, so the spores do not target there.
The one amplifier in the north is very vulnerable to attack from your spore towers, as it is just the one amplifier and a single companion emitter. With that one gone, the NE can be assaulted.
And lastly, remember that save/load is your enemy. Te implementation of those spore towers is still broken, if you load a save their timers reset! And your towers, at least the strong two on the far left, are on looooooooooooooooooooooooooong timers.
Timers are in ration 1/2/4, so every now and then when your strong towers fire, all 6 fire simultaneously. With carefully picked targets you can conquer a whole passage or room in one move.
And lastly-Lastly.
Try not to go insane. This map is incredibly frustrating.
I had to do a mindwipe&"restore to previous good settings" after finishing it. Owch!
A lot of this can be avoided if ... see page 2.
I dislike maps that basically have one path to victory you have to take, else DOoOoooOOOOM.
If it's a trick at the start, sure, not much damage done. Getting the spores is not that difficult.
But since you are very dependent on the spores and the timer resets on loading a save,
you can't really play around to see what might work except right after firing a whole volley.
The very long delay between your biggest spores also isn't helping with that.
Getting a foothold ain't pretty, with the enemy spores every so often (almost) annihilating you until
you manage a powerzone beam and somewhat decent tech. Constantly having to rebuild is annoying.
A second beam after you managed to secure your starting position would have been nice.
I'd like to think the creator put a lot of thought into this map. But I'm just thinking: Never again.
Yeah got to be honest, this is torture. I'll probably try again tomorrow though. And the next day.
Finally beat this insanity. I found enough upgrade towers that my forge could survive the strikes.
I then used my spores to kill all the amplifiers and at that point it was just a matter of whittling away. Took a lot of whittling, though!
Quote from: D0m0nik on June 28, 2021, 04:45:21 PM
Yeah got to be honest, this is torture. I'll probably try again tomorrow though. And the next day.
You should find logical way at the beginning of game to disable (make friendly) almost (only NW not possible) all SporeTowers!
You can! Good lu, Sir! :D
For a CSM map, this is very difficult. But there are other maps I've had to restart more than this map - 6 times, maybe 7. It's really not that awful. And I say that because each time I restarted I was closer to winning, then realized my timing on something was off, or that there was a better way to do something.
At this point, forget spoilers. If you don't want spoilers then stop reading. These were my first 3 steps on my final attempt...
1) I built a reactor first. This makes initial timing really challenging, but it'll give you more breathing room later.
2) Flew a terp to the left while building another one to terp locally and get the boost and the gate control in the bottom left - this lets you not have to worry about overflow from the top right. And it helps you capture the left side faster also.
3) Hooked up to the nearby spore tower booster - with enough time to spare I was able to use the auto-spores to take out the last "slumbering" emitter.
Once you do that, it's pretty much just relax and do w/e you want. Use the spores. or don't use them... doesn't really matter. If you need to, land your terp next to an absorber (there's one space in the middle) and then fly your terp away before the spores hit. I took the PZ to the lower left of the CN pretty quickly and once you do that you can walk away.
Not my favorite kind of map but I must admit it's smartly done. There isn't just one method for this, but you need to know what you're doing. This map is smarter than the average bear, for sure.
Thanks for the map! ;D ;D
Thanks yum and Johnny, it never occured to me to check if the activation time on that sleeping emitter in the NE was different to the one in the SW.
Now I feel a bit dumb, but this only helps to illustrate my point:
You need absolutely have to follow an elaborate sequence of actions, else you fail or need 3+ hours of dumbfoundedness.
1. Notice super strong emitters hidden behind regular ones.
2. Notice that their activation times differ (that text is hard to read because of 1.)
3. Use Terp to capture SW spore cluster (ok, this one was pretty obvious)
4. Capture and close gate 1.
5. In a phase of energy starvation, connect to and power the spore enhancer next to your starting point.
6. Wait and hope for the auto spore tower (which you cannot influence in any way) to hit the sleeping super emitter in the NE before it activates.
(It will if you are fast enough.)
Failure on any of the above leads to DOOoOoOoOOOOM and downvotes. Next one only to frustration.
7. Secure your base and get a powerzoned beam up and running before the NW spores hit you (~4:30)
(Do not listen to marvinitfox, that yellow portal in the NE will help you with 7. You could do it with targetted spores, but that takes more time)
Thanks AkuninsDude for the map and Johnny and Laithaldien for the hints, makes playing it much more pleasant.
I managed to do it without capturing the NE spores, but its tedious and took around 2h. I can't remember a map where a spore enhancer is that crucial. Interesting concept.
I got it in the end but only thanks to the tips above. Powering up that enhancer early really is the key!
I finally finished this after numerous attempts, thanks to the hints above. My comments are, first I appreciate the effort by Yum and all mapmakers who donate their time and creative ability for the benefit of those of us who just enjoy their product. One of the comments above is correct, that it seems you have to follow a very precise formula at the beginning to be able to win. It's almost like a dance with required steps. I think such a degree of precision is good when it is used to help IMPROVE times, but not to make the difference in winning vs. losing or requiring multiple hours to win. Once I got a start where I captured both the SE and NE spores, I saved and have now beaten the game twice. And I may try it again. It's actually a very fun game once you get past that point. Again, thanks Yum for creating the map.
Glad the hints helped ;D
One easy way to know if you should build a reactor at the start: Look at the total time before XX event happens, then consider whether or not the energy that the reactor will produce in that time (once you build it) will be more than the energy required to build it. Hope that doesn't sound too stressful to think about - if it does, no worries. There are lots of other cool maps out there that'll cheer ya up. ;)
Most CSM maps require very little thinking and planning at all, unless you just want to win quickly & efficiently. This map requires thinking which may or may not be enjoyable - depends on the player I suppose.
Cheers! ;D
I don't remember a map in cw3 where the number of ratings is so much higher than the number of scores... :-\
Heh heh, yeah I'm sure that's just because this is (from what I remember) one of the top 5 most difficult CSM maps out there. I think a lot of people like CSM maps because they offer a *slight* challenge, but nothing drastic. I personally enjoy a challenge ;D
Quote from: yum-forum on July 04, 2021, 04:24:25 AM
I don't remember a map in cw3 where the number of ratings is so much higher than the number of scores... :-\
now 100 scores and 157 ratings. only for this map! can't find map with such fenomena... :-[
Many of Sorrontis' maps have more ratings than scores. In fact, some have 4x as many ratings as scores. People get upset when they can't figure out a map and so they call the Whaaambulance and then tell the Po-Po that your map assaulted them. I think it's unfair that maps get thrown into the low rating jail so quickly. :-\
Quote from: Johnny Haywire on July 16, 2021, 01:56:20 PM
Many of Sorrontis' maps have more ratings than scores. In fact, some have 4x as many ratings as scores. People get upset when they can't figure out a map and so they call the Whaaambulance and then tell the Po-Po that your map assaulted them. I think it's unfair that maps get thrown into the low rating jail so quickly. :-\
I searched Sorrontis's maps data. Yes, in some cases it was difference between number of ratings and numbur of scores about 5 or 10, but not 61 as now for this map! ;)
Oh yeah I was talking about percentages.
Check out map #8458. 4x as many ratings as completions (27/106). I remember that one being a beast.
I think more people play the CSM maps than any other, and they're obviously the favorite map of most players (why? B/c they're cool!)
So you'd have to find a map that's popular (so people load it) AND a map that's hard (so people hate it) and then you get people expressing their displeasure at the map's inability to finish itself. I don't know any maps that rival CSM maps in popularity. Maaaybe PAC maps back in the day...? (Just a guess)
YES! HA HA... check out PAC map # 1733. (137 scores 263 votes - LOL!) I remember that one being really frustrating the first couple attempts.
Also, your map has some hints in the forum that helped people to be able to finish & submit scores. So without that your score count would be lower and there'd be a lot more rage-quitting. ::)
Yeah! 263-137= 126 (PAC map 1733). Much more than 61 in my case! Thanks Johnny! :)
BTW: I like maps from Master J!
YW! And yeah, his maps are good too. (But yours are da BEST!) Heh heh. 8)
Fresh video from Master DarkRubberNeck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k1lGyPiELU