This topic is for discussion of map #10446: 601-CSM try
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld3/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=10446)
Author: Rennervate / AlexX
Size: 135x135
Desc:
this is my first CSM map. I beg your indulgence. If Yum had made more of his fantastic CSM maps, I wouldn't have to make these amateurish attempts. Criticism and suggestions from you would be great.
Nice and uncommon map.
I encountered major bug: after loading a game save gates 01 and 03 were open, but I never had access to gate opener.
Quote from: Altren on December 17, 2022, 10:34:56 AMNice and uncommon map.
I encountered major bug: after loading a game save gates 01 and 03 were open, but I never had access to gate opener.
thanks for your comment. I'm afraid that the bug is my fault and that I may have made a mistake compiling the scripts.
Too hard. I am stuck
never mind. figured out
Quote from: purety on December 17, 2022, 05:30:05 PMToo hard. I am stuck
I'm still stuck. Got the center except the 30-point emitter, I see no expansion beyond that. Guppies powering the artifacts you can reach is not enough.
Quote from: Loren Pechtel on December 17, 2022, 06:49:30 PMQuote from: purety on December 17, 2022, 05:30:05 PMToo hard. I am stuck
I'm still stuck. Got the center except the 30-point emitter, I see no expansion beyond that. Guppies powering the artifacts you can reach is not enough.
You can
Spoiler
terp all the exits out of the center tendrils so that your AC isn't spilling into the ring with the red wormholes with terrain of height 5 or so. Block off the 30 strength emitter. Then terp down all remaining space in the center area to height 1 and wait for it to fill with AC to ~115 and terp up so that you now have 70-80 height AC in the center area. Now you can start capturing the ring that the red wormholes are on by strategically blocking them off. Claim an area, then terp it up to height 2 or 3 so that your AC from the central area builds up to ~100 height and then release it to claim further territory. There's probably more than one way to do it, but I block off the two bottom red wormholes and started capturing the area around the absorber that turns into a totem so I could let it explode and claim it safely. From there it's really just a matter of the usual tactics of careful terping to block off t-junctions while you work on one of the paths and using the red wormholes strategically.
The start of this is definitely one of the harder starts I've seen in CSM, but that was as expected. Took me a couple of tries to find the right rythm of emitter captures and which ways to block and which keep open. After that, it was mostly just about using normal CSM logic to see where you should attack and where not to attack. I had fun :)
All in all, a good map. Definitely one of the better non-Yum CSMs on here (and expecting to top Yum on first CSM map would be like expecting to outrun Usain Bolt on your first time running :D ).
I have a couple of minor things. These would be considered pet peeves more than actual complaints. I'm just mentioning them in case it is something you find that you can take into account without compromising the idea you were going for and without taking on noticable extra effort when it comes to future maps. Neither is significant enough to affect the map rating, so if you just choose to forget both, that is ok.
1) I play with transparent creeper, since that lets me easier see where it is really dense, and where creeper is easily assaulted. The colourful layer at the start combined with that made it really hard to see the difference between very low creeper and very low anticreeper. I can still mouseover where I am in doubt, so it's not a big issue.
2) When the blue emitters popped, some of the creeper flowed onto islands I can't reach with my anticreeper. I know this is entirely irrelevant, but I always dislike enemy stuff I can't get rid off. It doesn't make your map worse overall that it is there, it is just a personal annoyanc.
Thank you very much for your detailed description. Funnily enough, the same things annoyed me as you. I will try to take this into account in the future. I don't like the map itself very much. I'll try to improve the next map. CSM maps are much more elaborate than "normal" maps. Respect to Yum!
Always great to see a new CSM map. Excellent first effort. I agree, one of the best non Yum maps. I hope you'll make more! One issue I had was I never was able to use the portable gates. By the time I collected both of them, I had already taken most of the white gates and my AC emitters were strong enough to easily take the rest by a direct assault.
As to expanding to the square immediately around the starting point, I didn't do it the way wolfgoesmoo did it. I may play again and try that. Instead...
Spoiler
I terped up some of the tentacles to level 3. I kept them open on the north and east sides to attack the upgrade tower in the northeast corner. I had guppies going to all the spots with a safe landing zone to connect to the power upgraders/reducers, plus a team of guppies going one at a time to the 1.5x upgrader. The guppy can sit in the creeper providing power for a few seconds, then it has to leave (or it will be destroyed). If you have about 3 guppies doing this, you can pretty much have one ready to go at all times. It's a micromanagement pain, but it works. This gave me enough strength to eventually capture the NE tower. I kept using this method until I was able to connect to that upgrader with a relay. I'm sure there's a better way, but that was my approach.
thank you for your comment and the nice words. I did it similar to you (only without terping to level 3 - except for a few blockers).
I need a lot of time for a CSM map. probably because I'm still a noob. Next time I'll make a sketch on paper before I draw :-/
I probably have to omit the gates because I can't find my mistake...
Quote from: rennervate on December 18, 2022, 12:05:28 PMthank you for your comment and the nice words. I did it similar to you (only without terping to level 3 - except for a few blockers).
I need a lot of time for a CSM map. probably because I'm still a noob. Next time I'll make a sketch on paper before I draw :-/
I probably have to omit the gates because I can't find my mistake...
If you're talking about the movable stargates, a couple of thoughts are that if they can be captured earlier in the game, they can be used effectively and strategically. Also adds to the strategy if there are more colors of stargates on the map. I'm guessing that means more work for you on the design end. Just some thoughts. Again, I appreciate your maps. They're almost always fun with challenging beginnings.
Quote from: wolfgoesmoo on December 17, 2022, 07:25:09 PMQuote from: Loren Pechtel on December 17, 2022, 06:49:30 PMQuote from: purety on December 17, 2022, 05:30:05 PMToo hard. I am stuck
I'm still stuck. Got the center except the 30-point emitter, I see no expansion beyond that. Guppies powering the artifacts you can reach is not enough.
You can
Spoiler
terp all the exits out of the center tendrils so that your AC isn't spilling into the ring with the red wormholes with terrain of height 5 or so. Block off the 30 strength emitter. Then terp down all remaining space in the center area to height 1 and wait for it to fill with AC to ~115 and terp up so that you now have 70-80 height AC in the center area. Now you can start capturing the ring that the red wormholes are on by strategically blocking them off. Claim an area, then terp it up to height 2 or 3 so that your AC from the central area builds up to ~100 height and then release it to claim further territory. There's probably more than one way to do it, but I block off the two bottom red wormholes and started capturing the area around the absorber that turns into a totem so I could let it explode and claim it safely. From there it's really just a matter of the usual tactics of careful terping to block off t-junctions while you work on one of the paths and using the red wormholes strategically.
That did it, it's a tactic so rarely useful that I didn't think of it.
Once you grab the upgrader the resistance collapses.
One minor beef--the two emitters that explode spill creeper into the void and take out the nearby islands. Being CSM there's no way to clear the residue off them, they're permanently removed.
I probably spent over 2 hours on this map, Honestly it just doesn't work for me, I even used the hint but due to the 1 pixel lines the AC moves too slow and thus the map just drags. if you had not disabled the singularity that might have made a difference.
Cheers
Quote from: chwooly on December 19, 2022, 07:00:10 AMI probably spent over 2 hours on this map, Honestly it just doesn't work for me, I even used the hint but due to the 1 pixel lines the AC moves too slow and thus the map just drags. if you had not disabled the singularity that might have made a difference.
Cheers
My approach:
Spoiler
Don't just terp the center, terp every square you can. Have a few terps so you can go faster. The first push is the emitter to the west. Take as much space as you can--remember that it will pile to nearly 120 deep, considerably higher than the surrounding creep. This will let you push along the ring. Be careful before taking the absorbers, they do a lot to keep the creep down.
Master Rennervate, please, have mercy and make more CSM maps.
Glad to see a new map author, thank you!
Feedback: The beginning is too rough, the ending, not rough enough. The movable gate was unlocked too late to be of any use.
Spoiler
At the beginning, terp the "tendrils" down to 1. This will make the AC flow away from your emitters more quickly, and makes it quite easy to start in the top-right.
Thanks for your feedback. the problem with my more difficult starts is known to some. Likewise, I often don't manage to make a map interesting until the end. with CSM maps it is even more difficult for me. sorry for that
Quote from: rennervate on December 20, 2022, 09:55:16 AMThanks for your feedback. the problem with my more difficult starts is known to some. Likewise, I often don't manage to make a map interesting until the end. with CSM maps it is even more difficult for me. sorry for that
My observation is that Yum's strategy to keep things interesting involved careful use of the stargates and bridges. Your initial starting point was locked away from higher-output emitters by a combination of the two, plus some carefully-placed absorbers. It wasn't until you started unlocking switches and getting access to additional stargates that you had to deal with really high-powered emitters. Sometimes you were on a time limit for the early game where if you didn't terp something you'd be overwhelmed, but not always.
Quote from: rennervate on December 20, 2022, 09:55:16 AMThanks for your feedback. the problem with my more difficult starts is known to some. Likewise, I often don't manage to make a map interesting until the end. with CSM maps it is even more difficult for me. sorry for that
Please, don't apologize for greatness! This was still a lot of fun, and I'm looking forward to seeing what else you can come up with. Yum's maps are great, but they all start to "feel" the same after a while. I love the variety!