I would like it if the launchers were smarter, as in that they wont all attack the same cell if there is more creeper. Like when a launcer targets a cell, another launcher will try to avoid firing there.
Quote from: sayaks on June 16, 2011, 12:00:59 PM
I would like it if the launchers were smarter, as in that they wont all attack the same cell if there is more creeper. Like when a launcer targets a cell, another launcher will try to avoid firing there.
Just disarm the other launcher(s) for some frames so their shooting isn't in sync anymore.
And if you need to use more than one launcher the density you're facing is most likely to dense to already pierce through it with one or even a lot of shot(s).
Wouldn't it be best to try and place launchers far enough apart to where they dont target the same cell? Unless something has changed from CW to CW2 launchers (mortars) attack the deepest creeper.
Sqaz made a good point of disarming the other launcher.
How about a toggleable option that will cause lanchers to choose a non-optimal target, by when searching for creeper to blast, each cell it looks at, the creeper count is multiplied by a randomy number from 0.5 to 1.5 which would help in large groups, and while they would likely choose suboptimal targets often if they were solo, they would spread their fire out in groups, and far less overkill may occur. The random multiplier could be changed to span a greater or shorter range if needed.
Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 16, 2011, 02:08:33 PM
How about a toggleable option that will cause lanchers to choose a non-optimal target, by when searching for creeper to blast, each cell it looks at, the creeper count is multiplied by a randomy number from 0.5 to 1.5 which would help in large groups, and while they would likely choose suboptimal targets often if they were solo, they would spread their fire out in groups, and far less overkill may occur. The random multiplier could be changed to span a greater or shorter range if needed.
That's a really good idea.
No, it isn't. I want my launchers to fire at the deepest Creeper at all times, because a second hit will do maximum damage anyway when the density is 500K+.
When the density is lower I actually like it that the player has to think a little and maybe deactivate some launchers in favor of a few blasters/makers, or relocate a few launchers.
What he was suggesting, I believe, was a setting on the launcher where they would randomize their shots a bit more. And I can see how having the shots less random would make you have to think more, too. But launchers can be wasteful when they all waste a bullet on the same low density spot of creeper.
just a space of 9 subcells around it would be pretty neat though...
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 16, 2011, 04:01:53 PM
No, it isn't. I want my launchers to fire at the deepest Creeper at all times, because a second hit will do maximum damage anyway when the density is 500K+.
When the density is lower I actually like it that the player has to think a little and maybe deactivate some launchers in favor of a few blasters/makers, or relocate a few launchers.
I agree, that having launchers firing at the
Densest creeper at all times makes sense if you are attacking extremely Dense creeper, But correspondingly, When the creeper is not quite as dense, the launchers apply an immense amount of overkill. The Idea I am suggesting would add a
Toggle-able option that would cause the launchers to somewhat randomize their targets, so as to reduce overkill. I would think that this suggestion is not that different from adding burst and vacuum modes to makers, as both increase the flexibility of the corresponding unit, and the same thing with blaster targeting priorities. One thing that you I am not sure you you read correctly, was that the way it randomizes it's shots, is that when it calculates the densest creeper to fire at, it skews the result some, which will result in the launchers spreading their damage out some. Now, This does
Not mean that they will target areas with zero creeper, and will most likely not target areas with very little creeper (unless that is all that is in range) but will, depending on the random factor range, target creeper that is within a certain percent of the densest creeper in range. For example, if you have 4 possible locations for the launcher to fire, with 100k, 75k, 55k, and 25k creeper for example, and the factor was anywhere from 50% - 100% (obviously this is just an arbitrary value), then the launcher would only choose one of the first 3 to fire at, most likely case woud be the first, less likely for the second, because the first has to be reduced below the second value, which I think would have a change of about 30%, as a guess. The third would almost never be hit, as the first one would need to be reduced by 46%, the second by 35%, and the third one would never be picked at all if it's value was reduced by much more than 8%. As for the forth, there is no chance whatsoever of it being picked, as it is 25% the value of the highest one, and with a maximum leeway of 50%, that is not enough. Now, for your high density creeper masses, with 500k or so, having points with 500k, 480k, 400k, and 260k, all being high enough that they can all be picked with a leeway of 50%, the first will usually be picked, the second with almost the same chance, the third with a more reduced chance, and the forth will be almost never chosen.
Now, if the values were very low, like maxes of 30k, then more than one launcher would be overkill anyway, and you would STILL have to relocate the extras, or deactivate them, as the sub-optimal results will result in overkill, as 15k is a bit low for a launcher's missile to be used on. On the other hand with values such as 100k, targeting other high density areas with 70k creeper, rather than them all targeting the one cell with 100k creeper, would only result in more damage done overall, if you have several launchers.
In areas with high creeper density, some amount of randomization of the launcher fire wouldn't make much difference - there are bound to be many cells with lots of creeper in them, so whichever one the launcher picks, you're assured maximal destruction.
When it comes to it, launchers should also favor spots away from walls, so that none of the blast radius is wasted on terrain tiles.
True, but with lower densities, enough that one or two shots would be effective, but three or more would be overkill, this would allow more to fire at once without overkill. And Im pretty sure that the calculations for Mortars Launchers calculate the amount of creeper in the splash area already, not just the targeted cell.
Maybe a checkbox like the new blasters. 1. Fire at densest creeper 2. Randomize densest creeper cells 3. completely random or something like this
EDIT: How about missles that can retarget themselves. Cuase I hate when I'm on a map and I cleared out part of a cavern but the missle hits nothing. THat could solve our issue with overkill alittle. :)
Quote from: The Commander on June 18, 2011, 10:40:40 AM
How about missles that can retarget themselves. Cuase I hate when I'm on a map and I cleared out part of a cavern but the missle hits nothing. THat could solve our issue with overkill alittle. :)
This is the perfect idea. Drones and packets are able to seek a new end-point once they get to their original destination, why not missiles?
Like maybe when a missle hits the target, the other missle will find the densest and so on and so forth.
That would be useful, I wish packets would do that, it gets annoying when they just run straight into a stream of creeper and all explode. Drones should probably do that as well, and I think spores Phantoms. should Priorities closer targets.
Packets already do that. the'll turn around if there path get blocked bu if that's the only way it will just keep going
Constantly having these things repath would be convenient, but ultimately making them calculate their path constantly would become too much of a performance issue I imagine. That said, having missiles repath after they already have a target would have lots of silly side effects, because they would very often end up just flying back and forth without hitting anything because of slight changes in creeper density.
I was actually being sarcastic about those other suggestions, but I probably should have menioned that I knew about the performance issues. I guess that is what happens when you post when you should be sleeping.
Yeah you're right kithros. But Virgil has worked wonders before and I think he can again ;)
Quote from: The Commander on June 18, 2011, 12:45:49 PM
Yeah you're right kithros. But Virgil has worked wonders before and I think he can again ;)
He can't go and change the core of adobe AIR... Wich would be necessary in order to let constant checking be managable. That, and what would they do if every path was blocked? hang still?
who knows? I thin I'm going insane
You are indeed going insane
Heh heh!
It simple to implement.
For each cell store "incoming damage".
For next target search max(density - "incoming damage")
Quote from: iddqd on July 06, 2011, 07:46:36 AM
It simple to implement.
For each cell store "incoming damage".
For next target search max(density - "incoming damage")
Well having them repath would be laggy as hell. Having 20+ Weapons already lags alot.
Quote from: iddqd on July 06, 2011, 07:46:36 AM
It simple to implement.
For each cell store "incoming damage".
For next target search max(density - "incoming damage")
Except that creeper moves during this time as well, and if you try factoring that into the calculations it will start to get absurdly complicated.
Personally I would like the ability to manually target where launchers will fire (as an option, not by default), and that launcher won't target anywhere else until you tell it to do something else. This could be useful for this situation as well as many more subtle situations where you are using a launcher more defensively (can apply when dealing with very high densities of creeper)
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: iddqd on July 06, 2011, 07:46:36 AM
It simple to implement.
For each cell store "incoming damage".
For next target search max(density - "incoming damage")
Except that creeper moves during this time as well, and if you try factoring that into the calculations it will start to get absurdly complicated.
Personally I would like the ability to manually target where launchers will fire (as an option, not by default), and that launcher won't target anywhere else until you tell it to do something else. This could be useful for this situation as well as many more subtle situations where you are using a launcher more defensively (can apply when dealing with very high densities of creeper)
This is how my suggestion works, It sidesteps the whole problem of the creeper moving around by making the launchers spread their fire out around the dense creeper, with less overkill.
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Except that creeper moves during this time as well, and if you try factoring that into the calculations it will start to get absurdly complicated.
Personally I would like the ability to manually target where launchers will fire (as an option, not by default), and that launcher won't target anywhere else until you tell it to do something else. This could be useful for this situation as well as many more subtle situations where you are using a launcher more defensively (can apply when dealing with very high densities of creeper)
Good Idea Kithros!
Quote from: Wolf Shadow on July 06, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
Well having them repath would be laggy as hell. Having 20+ Weapons already lags alot.
Not need to "repath".
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Except that creeper moves during this time as well,
Why this is problem?
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
and if you try factoring that into the calculations it will start to get absurdly complicated.
It's very simple.
All you need is increase "incoming damage" when rocket launched. And decrease when rocket hit the target.
In current version search is max(density). I don't think max(density - "incoming damage") will affect performance.
Quote from: iddqd on July 06, 2011, 10:38:32 AM
Quote from: Wolf Shadow on July 06, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
Well having them repath would be laggy as hell. Having 20+ Weapons already lags alot.
Not need to "repath".
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
Except that creeper moves during this time as well,
Why this is problem?
Quote from: Kithros on July 06, 2011, 09:46:02 AM
and if you try factoring that into the calculations it will start to get absurdly complicated.
It's very simple.
All you need is increase "incoming damage" when rocket launched. And decrease when rocket hit the target.
In current version search is max(density). I don't think max(density - "incoming damage") will affect performance.
If you start taking into account what the creeper density *will* be when the launcher hits the creeper, then you have to take into account that the creeper is moving during that time as well. If you clear out all the creeper with the first missile, there will be creeper flooding back into that position during that time - in some instances, if not accounted for, the 2nd launcher might not fire at all when it still should be - this would make it extremely hard to hold back creeper from very high intensity emitters where you want the launchers to constantly be firing at the close creeper to reduce the need for blasters/repulsors. The calculations for how the creeper will move during this time will become excessively complicated to need to do every single time a launcher wants to fire a missile.
If a cell with creeper "knows" how much damage is coming then I want the creeper to be "smart" and get out of there....
one thing that would not be that hard to code that might help the people that want the targeting to change on launchers is a range toggle , so you can reduce the range that the selected luncher looks at causing it not to overlap so much with other launchers
this might even help people using lynchers to cap titan emitters too
Quote from: Eric on July 06, 2011, 10:31:37 PM
If a cell with creeper "knows" how much damage is coming then I want the creeper to be "smart" and get out of there....
;D
Quote from: xing on July 07, 2011, 02:21:41 AM
one thing that would not be that hard to code that might help the people that want the targeting to change on launchers is a range toggle , so you can reduce the range that the selected luncher looks at causing it not to overlap so much with other launchers
Maybe move some launchers a few cells backwards?
What I would almost suggest doing to solve this would be to basically add a randomifier (if that is a word :)), or, since it sounds better, a scatter shot option. Simply, have a meter that can be moved for launchers. It starts at 0, and the launcher will fire at the deepest creeper. Move it up higher, and the launcher will still find the deepest creeper, but instead of targeting it spot on, it may be a few cells off, or more if you wish. The more launchers you have, the more randomimity you want.
Quote from: UpperKEES on May 21, 2011, 10:46:23 PM
It's the main characteristic of the launcher that it fires at the deepest Creeper, just like a blaster fires at the closest. That simple principle is one of the elegant parts of the game. Again, spread them out more so they target different area's. (And please note that it doesn't matter when they hit the same subcell when the Creeper is very dense, because in that case all damage is done anyway.)
Why make it all too easy? It would even be more convenient when all my weapons automatically move 1 cell forward if there's no more Creeper in range. A repulsor could adjust it's beam length when it hits a wall. A phantom coil shouldn't recharge when the last gateway spawning phantoms has been destroyed (or even auto-destruct). Tech domes could stop using energy and producing technytes when all upgrades have been bought.
But isn't this game about playing it smart? What's wrong with a little thinking?
Quote from: Fisherck on July 07, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
What I would almost suggest doing to solve this would be to basically add a randomifier (if that is a word :)), or, since it sounds better, a scatter shot option. Simply, have a meter that can be moved for launchers. It starts at 0, and the launcher will fire at the deepest creeper. Move it up higher, and the launcher will still find the deepest creeper, but instead of targeting it spot on, it may be a few cells off, or more if you wish. The more launchers you have, the more randomimity you want.
*grammar nazi moment* randomifier I can accept... but I think it's "the more randomness you want" not randomimity. and also, I believe something very similar to this was suggested at the beginning of the thread, but have a mode where the density for creeper the launcher targets is randomly multiplied by a certain number, so that it'll hit around the densest creeper, but end up targeting the densest 4 or 5 patches.
EDIT: but despite this, I agree with KEES. This same complaint was had with mortars in cw1... but a few players have used that to their advantage in custom maps in such. *guilty* and that was one of my more popular maps. Every game needs a few complications to be fun.
@UpperKEES
Why make it all too easy? It would even be more convenient when all my weapons automatically move 1 cell forward if there's no more Creeper in range.
- Well, I could instead say that it would be convenient to add options to blasters to make them target creeper or drones only, or which order, but since that would make it too easy, it obviously should not be added. I would like it if my launchers would similarly synergize, rather than having more be almost always a bad idea due to significant overkill.
A repulsor could adjust it's beam length when it hits a wall.
- Certainly would be useful for the same reason, or it could simply use power proportional to the amount of cells the beam contains, rather than the potential length, if only because you cannot perfectly manage the length in certain cases to do exactly what you need.
A phantom coil shouldn't recharge when the last gateway spawning phantoms has been destroyed (or even auto-destruct).
- That would be nice, but not necessary, as it uses very little power for the one time recharge, while the tech labs on the other-hand will continue to drain power.
Tech domes could stop using energy and producing technytes when all upgrades have been bought.
- Well, At least the option to double click on tech domes to select all of them would be quite useful, As it is a pain to find all of them and either pause them or delete them (and replace with reactors) Other games actually have features to remove depleted production facilities, automatically, or with a single button.
But isn't this game about playing it smart? What's wrong with a little thinking?
- Isnt there a different between thinking and unnecessary micromanagement? Certainly I do not mind having to relocate blasters and launchers. but I do not like having to pause the game, find each and every tech lab/ phantom coil, and manually delete each and every one of them. It certainly does not count as fun in my book. Certainly the launchers are not as much of a micromanagement problem, but I find launchers to be mostly ineffective in many cases. as while their Damage is much higher, blasters waste much less energy for many of the same jobs. Certainly they are necessary for high density creeper, but it seems odd that their targeting AI is unable to spread the damage out so as to waste less power. Do you, in creeper world one, send 20 drones to all bomb the same spot, simultaneously? That will cause a lot of overkill in most cases, aside from high powered emitters, as the bombs after the first few, and the first of each wave, will mostly be wasted, as most of them will be hitting spots with little to no creeper there. Certainly unless it will be a landing point for a relay or collector for a totem, or for a beachhead, it would be better to spread that damage out as much as possible, to reduce the overkill, so as to do more overall damage to the creeper coverage as possible, right?
I would also note that launchers seem to play a significantly different role than mortars in the first game did, (Although it has been a while since I played the first one) After all, the mortars Generally cleared out a layer of creeper, quite efficiently, and didn't have to be very close to said creeper. However, While launchers have a slightly higher range than blasters (and fire around corners, unlike Dr Device) they are not really able to continue to hit the deep creeper unless you have them parallel, or in front of the blasters for them to be effective at all(or behind shields) Also, this is quite annoying especially when you have really narrow corridors, like in much of the campaign. Certainly I understand that you need to move them up. Also, due to the differences between the side on and top down simulation, if they fire into a pit, it tends not to either empty it, or even reduce the level much, unlike mortars.
I guess we have to agree to disagree. :)