Knuckle Cracker

Knuckle Cracker => General => Topic started by: Karsten75 on June 16, 2022, 11:09:02 am

Title: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Karsten75 on June 16, 2022, 11:09:02 am
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Dark6al3a on June 16, 2022, 12:29:40 pm
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Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Helper on June 16, 2022, 03:32:56 pm
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.

Why is that something you need to get involved in, much less delete the map without any warning?
Trying to get enough CW3 maps to play is hard enough without you making up arbitrary rules.

This is the second or third map he's made with an "Easter Egg" fast win or a slow fight it out tactic.

Did enough people complain via the "Report" function or did you just decide you didn't like it?
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Martin Gronsdal on June 16, 2022, 03:56:48 pm
I have to say that I also find this very strange and potentially retroactive. If you look at my maps... oh well, which one would you not take down?

while I've not always like the comments made by certain map makers here, I would  rather have the rudeness addressed and not some innocent map being removed.
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Dark6al3a on June 16, 2022, 04:50:31 pm
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.

Why is that something you need to get involved in, much less delete the map without any warning?
Trying to get enough CW3 maps to play is hard enough without you making up arbitrary rules.

This is the second or third map he's made with an "Easter Egg" fast win or a slow fight it out tactic.

Did enough people complain via the "Report" function or did you just decide you didn't like it?
Nope, There was a conversation on the discord server about that egg and K75 just decided to delete it because he didn't like it
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: buttRcaT on June 16, 2022, 05:21:04 pm
I will say this does seem a little crazy to me, CW3 doesn't get many high quality maps that have a big amount of effort put in, but doing this is just.... why?
It's just a little secret, I get that it isn't likely to be found very easily, but there is a hint in the desc, and they have been doing it in their past maps!

Also, how would the creator (who makes some really good maps) feel about this?
Doing this could make them feel like they shouldn't make more maps, because of the fear that the effort they put in will be ruined by one person that gets to do what they want because they are in a 'high ranking' I guess you could say.

Like, if you want to have a community that is toxic and other stuff, deleting a map because of a secret that is hinted at is definitely the way to go. :)
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: teknotiss on June 16, 2022, 07:47:14 pm
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.

this is a bit much, if one wanted to kill a community this is how one could start the process.

Karsten, please put the map back.

a hidden easter egg "fast win" option is not an insta-win map, it is a two play styles map, and if it were reported enough to come up in your to-do list the thing i, and it seems many of the more veteran players, think what you should have done is ignore the reports.

if you made this decision on your own off the back of a discord conversation then that is deeply concerning and perhaps a sign you need to take a few steps back from moderating CW3 maps as you would be letting your personal desires and wants overrule the community and good sense...  i, or others here, will be more than happy to take over and ensure fairness in moderation of future maps.

you need to either put the map back or you need to play all of Dark6al3a's maps and remove all the others with this sort of CPRL in them, and that would be foolish in the extreme, since it would take ages, be against the interests of the player community and do more harm to the map making community.

i think you have made a serious error in this case and i (and i think most players would agree) would like you to restore the map ASAP.
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Karsten75 on June 16, 2022, 08:24:43 pm
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.

Why is that something you need to get involved in, much less delete the map without any warning?
Trying to get enough CW3 maps to play is hard enough without you making up arbitrary rules.

This is the second or third map he's made with an "Easter Egg" fast win or a slow fight it out tactic.

Did enough people complain via the "Report" function or did you just decide you didn't like it?

It has been a long-established rule that maps cannot have backdoors for mapmakers to play and win a map.  When some backdoor is detected, then the map is removed. I did not go and look for it, other members of the community called it out. Since I hardly ever play CW3 anymore, me liking or not liking has nothing to do with it.

I'm getting really tired of you acting like you're the arbiter of my actions. If you don't like what I do, please send an email with your complaints to support@knucklecracker.com.

Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Dark6al3a on June 17, 2022, 05:50:58 am
This map has been removed since it has been reported to contain  a hidden core that is subject to sniper targeting - doing so results in a much improved time, apparently.

Why is that something you need to get involved in, much less delete the map without any warning?
Trying to get enough CW3 maps to play is hard enough without you making up arbitrary rules.

This is the second or third map he's made with an "Easter Egg" fast win or a slow fight it out tactic.

Did enough people complain via the "Report" function or did you just decide you didn't like it?

It has been a long-established rule that maps cannot have backdoors for mapmakers to play and win a map.  When some backdoor is detected, then the map is removed. I did not go and look for it, other members of the community called it out. Since I hardly ever play CW3 anymore, me liking or not liking has nothing to do with it.

I'm getting really tired of you acting like you're the arbiter of my actions. If you don't like what I do, please send an email with your complaints to support@knucklecracker.com.

I understand, I can't disagree against the "rules"

But again, What's the purpose of the rules ?
To Ban double playstyle maps ?
To leave spam and rude comments just there but deleting a well-done map because it's two playstyle ?

Some maps are based entirely on these things, Take Martin's maps for example

I know that you don't like the idea of backdoors to avoid  submitting scores, but I DO play them to balance them, then, after all is set up, go for the egg and submit score, for people to know that the egg is accessible early on

If you do indeed not reverse this deletion, or go delete other maps, then I'm out, I don't want to have everything I do at risk because of an abusive moderator, I don't want to be in a community with this kind of thing in it

Please consider reversing that, It's doing more harm than good, you're slowly making people and mapmakers run off because of the fear of having their work all gone for nothing

When many old veterans from here begin complaining about your actions that means that you indeed are doing something wrong
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Helper on June 17, 2022, 05:55:23 am
I'm getting really tired of you acting like you're the arbiter of my actions. If you don't like what I do, please send an email with your complaints to support@knucklecracker.com.

There is no "back door" way to win in these maps. Anyone can figure them out by trial and error (and many have), and as noted, clues are posted to help those of us who needed some help in figuring them out.

This isn't about your feelings. It's about your taking an arbitrary action with no notice.
Maybe if you would back off on your 'rude' level - which you know started many years ago between us - things could be reasonably discussed and an amicable solution could be found.

Since you haven't figured it out yet, understand that this is called a "Forum" to allow us all to discuss CW things and offer our opinions. You trying to tell me I can't express my opinion here is a non-starter.

The primary problem when these situations develop is that you're the lone arbiter. Whatever ever you decide is the new law on CW, noone is allowed to express a contrary thought.

Virgil has way too many real problems to deal with this foolishness, but it sure would be good to have another Moderator - but one with enough maturity to discuss situations as though the members were equals and not subjects.
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Karsten75 on June 17, 2022, 07:16:45 am
Since several community members objected to this map's removal, I have restored it. I have also moved all comments regarding said removal/restoration to this, separate thread so as to not detract from discussions regarding the map itself.
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Helper on June 17, 2022, 07:26:31 am
I have restored it.
/quote]

Good decision.
Thank you.
H
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Dark6al3a on June 17, 2022, 08:07:32 am
Finally!
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: Helper on June 17, 2022, 03:18:44 pm
...you need to take a few steps back from moderating CW3 maps as you would be letting your personal desires and wants overrule the community and good sense...  i, or others here, will be more than happy to take over and ensure fairness in moderation of future maps.

tek - I missed this earlier and think you make an excellent point.

CW3 has changed greatly over the years and anyone making Mod types of decisions for the maps (and players) should be someone who is still active playing and creating, and not acting out of memories from many many years ago.

I would probably be the second worse choice to ever be a Moderator, but I think you and at least a half dozen of the regulars would all be excellent choices.

Thanks for bringing out this point. I hope Virgil will give it some consideration.
H
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: teknotiss on June 17, 2022, 04:20:01 pm
...you need to take a few steps back from moderating CW3 maps as you would be letting your personal desires and wants overrule the community and good sense...  i, or others here, will be more than happy to take over and ensure fairness in moderation of future maps.

tek - I missed this earlier and think you make an excellent point.

CW3 has changed greatly over the years and anyone making Mod types of decisions for the maps (and players) should be someone who is still active playing and creating, and not acting out of memories from many many years ago.

I would probably be the second worse choice to ever be a Moderator, but I think you and at least a half dozen of the regulars would all be excellent choices.

Thanks for bringing out this point. I hope Virgil will give it some consideration.
H

thanks for the vote of confidence, as i said i would be happy to moderate the fora here, and since Karsten seems to be pretty annoyed by most of us players and mappers perhaps it is time to step back and let another moderator, one who is better at dealing with personal criticisms, take over?


Karsten, you seem to have some issues with people of each new era for KC, you and i butted heads a few times, and you stooped to personal attacks based on my username, and it took the intervention of the then moderator Grauniad to resolve.  you and Helper have a frankly contentious interactions coloured by often open hostility on your part. you have issues with Dark6al3a's maps and when Dark6al3a asks about this you were pretty rude.  so i have to ask...  why do you even want to moderate CW3 here?
Title: Re: Removal of Custom Map #10112: All-Out Retreat. By: Dark6al3a
Post by: knucracker on June 17, 2022, 06:04:05 pm
So here's the thing;  If you've seen "It's a Wonderful Life", you are familiar with the movie trope of what would things be like if a person wasn't around. Well, in the case of K75 I can say that the forums would have been shut down, or effectively shut down, before CW3 ever happened.  Custom maps in CW3 certainly  wouldn't have been the thing they are.  CRPL probably would not have happened. I would very likely have done CW1 and CW2, then returned to the corporate tills.  So everything after 2011 would be a dystopian alternate reality where I spend my days siting in conference calls and trying to get developers to stop fighting with each other. And, we (all of us) never got to play CW3, PF, CW4, and IXE.  That last one is TBD.

So, consider this when thinking on the redaction and reversal of map; ten thousand one hundred twelve for CW3.  And, this sounds like a good landing spot for this discussion.