In depth tech analyses

Fireball14 · 2507

Fireball14

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on: September 14, 2016, 05:24:16 pm
I played fair bit of missions, and now ready to provide my feedback on current tech usefulness.
I'm gonna approach this from "Standard" map perspective. If map was specially designed for some tech, this analyses will be invalid.

1) Mine production increased (5/10) -  one of less useful techs, Energy Mines usually produce very little amount of energy so boosting this amount viable only if you really starving for energy or already  boosted all your main ships and have nothing better to get for that gem.

2) Land production increased (11+/10  ;D)  - Since most of our energy usually generated through mired land, this tech should always be picked first before anything else.

3) Energy range increase  (4/10)  - Usually your tankers capable of resupplying your ships away from your base, so this tech useful only when you desperately trying to reach some faraway land, to build omni on it. Overall not worth its gem price. Should be picked only when everything useful was already enabled.

4) Omni reactors  (9/10) - crucial for fighting your way through enemy islands, as well as mire your defensive land for energy. Always should be picked second.

5) Move/Build speed increase  (6/10) - Quality of life tech, in no way must have, but good to have it if you can afford it.

6) Mine dischargers (3/10) - only somewhat useful on maps with big amount of stunners and mines. Usually your discharger ship capable to defend  your whole fleet.

7) Defensive struct (3/10) - mostly ignored tech, friendly struct grows really slow. Struct can only defend against few random particles. And since mines can shoot using other tech, it's really not worth its price.

8 ) Rock burner (-10/10) - absolutely useless tech. Should never be picked on "Normal" map. I used it once... for 1 minute... on custom map. Since there is emitter control tech, and you usually have grabber, its enough to guide your particles anywhere plus by burning land you destroying your main source of income and defense. Also you need a lathe to use it.

9) Mine cannons (7/10) - somewhat useful tech, mines can defend themselves from usual few stray particles that break through your fleet. Also helps with taking control of enemy islands, since mines can bomb enemy mire.

10) Omni cannons (8/10) - really useful tech. Since there usually at least 10 omnis, that's a lot of cannons that help you defend your backside and attack enemy mire .

11) Emitter control (6/10) - not so much useful tech, since you usually have some grabbers in your fleet, but on rare occasion you can't win map without it.

12) Benign emergent (7/10) - useful tech. It's not always available on all maps(0 spawn rate), but usually if it's available - it worth its price.

Tip: Techs with rating lower than 7 should be picked only after all your main ships(bigger than cruiser) has been boosted with gems.

Suggestions:
1) Land and Mine production tech should be merged in one.
2) Energy range would benefit from small buff - add more energy storage up to x2 on 100%. Or at least make separate tech for energy storage with x5 on 100%.
3) Mine dischargers should be merged with Defensive struct tech. This will make it at least worth it. As alternative buff Defensive struct tech with at least x4 struct grow rate. And add two particle beams in addition with Mine dischargers.
4) I really missing global ship buff techs like weapon range and weapon fire rate(should be twice less than boosting ship directly).
5) Would be great to add some tech that add specific modules to your HQ ship. Making it into heavy close range assault ship. For big risk / reward gameplay.
6) Rock burner really needs some love. If there was way to restore previously destroyed land(same way as struct restored). Plus some added passive ongoing benefits like faster lathe rate / more range. Right now there is no reason to keep it if you already did what you wanted.




« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 05:34:21 pm by Fireball14 »



Cavemaniac

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Reply #1 on: September 14, 2016, 06:55:13 pm


I disagree with about half of your observations!

 ;)

Having said that, I enjoyed reading your reasoning behind your scores.

As I was reading I kept interrupting myself, saying (in a voice that can only be heard inside my head!) 'yes, but...'

Individual gameplay styles differ, as do specific map's requirements.

Everyone will find their own preferences.

I always go for tech upgrades first (but not necessarily all of them) before upgrading ships.

I'll be interested in you take on the usefulness of ship upgrades.

Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.


ShadeOfRed

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Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 08:17:22 pm
I played fair bit of missions, and now ready to provide my feedback on current tech usefulness.
I'm gonna approach this from "Standard" map perspective. If map was specially designed for some tech, this analyses will be invalid.

1) Mine production increased (5/10) -  one of less useful techs, Energy Mines usually produce very little amount of energy so boosting this amount viable only if you really starving for energy or already  boosted all your main ships and have nothing better to get for that gem.

Man, that one is so situational it's hard to make a call.  When you need it...you need it.  When you don't you don't.  Though the next one is usually better.

Quote
2) Land production increased (11+/10  ;D)  - Since most of our energy usually generated through mired land, this tech should always be picked first before anything else.

This is mostly true.  Unless you only have small islands...then it usually switches places with the first one.

Quote
3) Energy range increase  (4/10)  - Usually your tankers capable of resupplying your ships away from your base, so this tech useful only when you desperately trying to reach some faraway land, to build omni on it. Overall not worth its gem price. Should be picked only when everything useful was already enabled.

It's situational, but I find it pretty darn useful, for getting me that extra range I need...while USING a tanker to reach what I need.  And all around keeps me from having to cluster my fleet quite as much and have things getting in the way.  It's kinda like all of these, can be great in some cases, in others, nah, put it elsewhere.

Quote
4) Omni reactors  (9/10) - crucial for fighting your way through enemy islands, as well as mire your defensive land for energy. Always should be picked second.

It's pretty nice.  But...for trying to reach out a long ways with them outside of energy range?  Omni's are so dang fragile that they die quickly  while in the air making that trip.  Especially to emergent and energy node cannons.  I find this pretty situational too...

Quote
5) Move/Build speed increase  (6/10) - Quality of life tech, in no way must have, but good to have it if you can afford it.

6) Mine dischargers (3/10) - only somewhat useful on maps with big amount of stunners and mines. Usually your discharger ship capable to defend  your whole fleet.

7) Defensive struct (3/10) - mostly ignored tech, friendly struct grows really slow. Struct can only defend against few random particles. And since mines can shoot using other tech, it's really not worth its price.

8 ) Rock burner (-10/10) - absolutely useless tech. Should never be picked on "Normal" map. I used it once... for 1 minute... on custom map. Since there is emitter control tech, and you usually have grabber, its enough to guide your particles anywhere plus by burning land you destroying your main source of income and defense. Also you need a lathe to use it.

9) Mine cannons (7/10) - somewhat useful tech, mines can defend themselves from usual few stray particles that break through your fleet. Also helps with taking control of enemy islands, since mines can bomb enemy mire.

10) Omni cannons (8/10) - really useful tech. Since there usually at least 10 omnis, that's a lot of cannons that help you defend your backside and attack enemy mire .

11) Emitter control (6/10) - not so much useful tech, since you usually have some grabbers in your fleet, but on rare occasion you can't win map without it.

12) Benign emergent (7/10) - useful tech. It's not always available on all maps(0 spawn rate), but usually if it's available - it worth its price.

Tip: Techs with rating lower than 7 should be picked only after all your main ships(bigger than cruiser) has been boosted with gems.

Okay to make this shorter...5...situational...also, does it affect your ship repair speed?  It seems to...makes it pretty useful sometimes.
6.  I agree with you, it's situational and not always a valid choice.
7. I agree with you on this too.  I don't find myself using it often, I think the only time I liked it was when I only had a few ships, and a few particles were leaking back behind me around an island or something, the particles get attracted to that energy node and try to destroy it.  a cannon might have been better, but it works too.  Also makes a big wall for enemy ships and doppels to tear themselves in half getting through.  Though if you want it, pick it early because you are right, it takes forever for it to build out.
8. Rock Burner seems useless...but...I can see times it will be great.  Need two more pixels to get closer to an emitter on the other side of an island that is to rough to land an omni on?  Lots of little rocks in the way?  That island blocking your grabbers stream of particles you need on the front line?  Situational...
9. This is close to defensive struct to me.  But it can be useful sometimes...situational again.
10. This I agree with you, IF the islands allow me to make use of them to good effect.  Or if they keep sending a copy ship down to you (not a doppel, they are okay against a doppel but not great) 4 or 5 of these can tear one up.  But if the islands are limited...not so much.
11. Grabbers can usually cover this, but sometimes you need two grabbers just to bank the stream of particles where you need it.  This is like having a 3rd grabber for "free" (one amp gem)
12.  One of my favorites actually...it can really help limit the amount of enemy emergent you have streaming in destroying ships, omnis and energy nodes.

Quote
Suggestions:
1) Land and Mine production tech should be merged in one.
2) Energy range would benefit from small buff - add more energy storage up to x2 on 100%. Or at least make separate tech for energy storage with x5 on 100%.
3) Mine dischargers should be merged with Defensive struct tech. This will make it at least worth it. As alternative buff Defensive struct tech with at least x4 struct grow rate. And add two particle beams in addition with Mine dischargers.
4) I really missing global ship buff techs like weapon range and weapon fire rate(should be twice less than boosting ship directly).
5) Would be great to add some tech that add specific modules to your HQ ship. Making it into heavy close range assault ship. For big risk / reward gameplay.
6) Rock burner really needs some love. If there was way to restore previously destroyed land(same way as struct restored). Plus some added passive ongoing benefits like faster lathe rate / more range. Right now there is no reason to keep it if you already did what you wanted.

1. Nah.  I like them being separate.  Makes a choice matter.  Often mine is more useful at the start...land more useful at the end.  More options this way.
2. I'm okay with the energy storage, but it would be nice that if I have a big fat tanker full of energy sitting there and I'm dying for need of energy, that the tanker could dump it's payload...
3. This I might agree with...maybe.
4. I like the individual buffs, again, makes you have to make a decision.
5. People already do this it seems...check planetfall's youtube channel, it was straight up sick.
6.I'd like to be able to build land onto an island, I agree with that.  But you are right, you have to slot it, burn the ground, slot it out into something else. 

Everything is SO situational in this game.  You state a normal map this is how it would play, and so far normal isn't normal...things change on every map and what the situation calls for is always different.  I loved that planetfall's Warp Never Changes map sort of forced me to use Rock Burner, which I never have had to do before.  I think I've used every single one of these to good effect on different levels.  On some levels, everything you said was 100% spot on.  On others...they could all be reversed.  So it's hard to give them a rating, but I think we should discuss when they are good or terrible. 



Fireball14

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Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 08:19:53 pm


I disagree with about half of your observations!

 ;)

Having said that, I enjoyed reading your reasoning behind your scores.

As I was reading I kept interrupting myself, saying (in a voice that can only be heard inside my head!) 'yes, but...'

Individual gameplay styles differ, as do specific map's requirements.

Everyone will find their own preferences.

I always go for tech upgrades first (but not necessarily all of them) before upgrading ships.

I'll be interested in you take on the usefulness of ship upgrades.

You right, it's IMHO. Just thought i share my opinion with you all.
About ship, as i see it, gem adds around 50% fire rat, that is basically + half of a boosted ship, and if you boost all your main ships you will get + 2 big  ships worth of firepower for free. This usually for me worth more then all 6- tech combined.



Cavemaniac

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Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 08:34:41 pm


I disagree with about half of your observations!

 ;)

Having said that, I enjoyed reading your reasoning behind your scores.

As I was reading I kept interrupting myself, saying (in a voice that can only be heard inside my head!) 'yes, but...'

Individual gameplay styles differ, as do specific map's requirements.

Everyone will find their own preferences.

I always go for tech upgrades first (but not necessarily all of them) before upgrading ships.

I'll be interested in you take on the usefulness of ship upgrades.

You right, it's IMHO. Just thought i share my opinion with you all.
About ship, as i see it, gem adds around 50% fire rat, that is basically + half of a boosted ship, and if you boost all your main ships you will get + 2 big  ships worth of firepower for free. This usually for me worth more then all 6- tech combined.

Ya - but remember you can use the tech upgrades to amass the resources you need to build your fleet, then release them for use on the ships when you switch over to 'massive frontal attack mode'.

 ;)

Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.


knucracker

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Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 08:40:01 pm
The defensive struc is the one I use least currently.  Rock burner is just situation dependent.  Story mission 14 (which isn't in the preview) sheds some new light on rock burner, for instance.

For defensive struc I'm going to increase the build rate... by a healthy amount.  Some missions have doppels/ships that like to run over your energy sources and having defensive struc is nice in those cases.  The lathe on a mine can also be useful in a few cases.



Cavemaniac

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Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 10:56:59 pm
The defensive struc is the one I use least currently.  Rock burner is just situation dependent.  Story mission 14 (which isn't in the preview) sheds some new light on rock burner, for instance.

A little while back there was a discussion regarding the rock burner.

Some people wanted the process to be reversible - like a terraformer.

I responded that by having 'one-way' burning only, it would force you to think carefully - in fact I quipped 'good luck un-nukeing it'.

So, a couple of days ago I painted myself into a corner, generating a situation where I burnt away the land I needed for a victory condition (you'll just have to play planetfall's 'Warp' map to see what I mean!).

Think very carefully before you burn any rock!

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SuperTerminator

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Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 12:28:35 am
I really like how this upgrade system turned out. It really pushes forward the "every choice you make affects each ship individually" approach the game pushes. Amp your capital ships? Your upgrades may be lacking. Upgrade systems and features? Your capital ships may be subpar and unable to defend/attack properly. Gives for a lot more personal choice with how levels are completed. Some people may turtle and use their entire fleet for small objectives, some people can break their fleet into aggressive little pockets of death and accomplish much more while being significantly more vulnerable. That's why upgrades like mine cannons, dischargers, and struct can be really useful for some people cause it gives them the option to abandon their energy mines and attack. This ain't creeper world 3, this is something entirely new, and I love it.

I tried making CW3 custom maps once upon a time. I kinda failed. My maps were too large/stupidly long/stupidly easy. I think I only ever made one really good map, and its not for people who hate spores. I mean it'd be good shock therapy xD


jaworeq

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Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 12:40:16 am
Watching all the videos leading to current state, I always thought energy range would always be a must-have. To get your omnis in range, to allow fleet to get closer to the next objective and so on.
When I started playing it soon became obvious, that you just can't do anything without energy production upgrades. And yes, mine production is so small when compared to land, that they just become glorified relays. Maybe it's just balance thing, or maybe it's maps-I-played-thing, but in production breakdown I usually can see land production is 10x mine production.



Fireball14

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Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 08:14:27 am
Watching all the videos leading to current state, I always thought energy range would always be a must-have. To get your omnis in range, to allow fleet to get closer to the next objective and so on.
When I started playing it soon became obvious, that you just can't do anything without energy production upgrades. And yes, mine production is so small when compared to land, that they just become glorified relays. Maybe it's just balance thing, or maybe it's maps-I-played-thing, but in production breakdown I usually can see land production is 10x mine production.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. Would be great to tune down mire energy production and tune up mine energy production.



knucracker

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Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 09:08:16 am
The amount of energy produced by land is a setting per map.  The settings basically says how much energy to produce at 100% mire coverage.  The player gets less than than based on the percent they actually mire.  The default for this setting is 30 energy per second.

The upgrades basically double production for mines  and increase by 50% for mire.  Typically on the story maps mine production might be in the 10-20 range (if you have all mines).  Mire production is the default of 30 (if you have all the land). 

So the upgrade you should place an amp gem on depends on, when, what energy sources you get, what land you can get, what your energy demands are (short and long term).

That said, since the mire energy and the energy source energy are all things that can vary, any map could be made where the choice becomes highly skewed one way or the other.  If there is a single tiny island of land and it is in your starting base, that tiny island is worth 30eps.  Take it and then you can get another 15eps easily with the mire energy upgrade.  On the other hand, if most of the land is in enemy hands, your mire production might top out at 5eps for example (it all depends on what the map's production value is).  At 5eps the mire production upgrade only nets another 2.5eps.



Karsten75

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Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 09:09:50 am
The amount of energy produced by land is a setting per map.  The settings basically says how much energy to produce at 100% mire coverage.  The player gets less than than based on the percent they actually mire.  The default for this setting is 30 energy per second.

The upgrades basically double production for mines  and increase by 50% for mire.  Typically on the story maps mine production might be in the 10-20 range (if you have all mines).  Mire production is the default of 30 (if you have all the land). 

So the upgrade you should place an amp gem on depends on, when, what energy sources you get, what land you can get, what your energy demands are (short and long term).

That said, since the mire energy and the energy source energy are all things that can vary, any map could be made where the choice becomes highly skewed one way or the other.  If there is a single tiny island of land and it is in your starting base, that tiny island is worth 30eps.  Take it and then you can get another 15eps easily with the mire energy upgrade.  On the other hand, if most of the land is in enemy hands, your mire production might top out at 5eps for example (it all depends on what the map's production value is).  At 5eps the mire production upgrade only nets another 2.5eps.

Who's for updating the wiki? And at the same time testing wiki access? :)

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GoodMorning

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Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 09:23:02 am
I was just trying for PRPL docs, hit a wall.

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Karsten75

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Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 09:40:54 am
I was just trying for PRPL docs, hit a wall.

PRPL docs is "Coming Soon..." Some of it is similar to the CRPL, some of it will have to be pulled out of scripts for the maps that were made with them. Virgil's plate is too full to pay attention to that right now. Planetfall has made some maps with a lot of special-purpose PRPL.

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ShadeOfRed

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Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 01:03:32 pm
I was just trying for PRPL docs, hit a wall.

PRPL docs is "Coming Soon..." Some of it is similar to the CRPL, some of it will have to be pulled out of scripts for the maps that were made with them. Virgil's plate is too full to pay attention to that right now. Planetfall has made some maps with a lot of special-purpose PRPL.

I'm excited to see all of that.  And maybe...one day...try my hand at making a few maps.