Knuckle Cracker

I am implementing a "vacuum" mode on Creeper Makers.  It allows them to drive around and vacuum up anti-creeper.  This is a good way to pick up anti-creeper and put it back into service.  You can also use it as a way to move anti-creeper around.  That part is a good idea, I think.  For folks that don't want to waste any anti-creeper or like to keep a clean house, this is their new best friend.

But, what should happen to the anti-creeper that gets vacuumed up?  One option is to convert it back into ore.  This ore can then be used by any Maker to create new anti-creeper.  Pretty straight forward and easy to understand.

The other option is to store the anti-creeper in a 'tank'.  Lets call it a "Phasic" tank since it is a single tank but it is available to all Makers on the map.  Vacuumed creeper gets put into that tank and stored there.  The contents of this tank can be released through any Maker by clicking a "release" button on a Maker.  This option is more complex, but it does allow for "anti-creeper bombs".  You could, in theory, save up lots of anti-creeper and then release it all at once.

So option #1 is easy and clear to understand.  Option #2 is more complex but adds one more game play option.  Vote....

One of the things that would seem a little off to me about being able to release it all at once, is that this would mean that you would always want the creeper maker to constantly be generating creeper - when you weren't in a fight, you would still constantly make more creeper only to vacuum it back up a few seconds later. This might not be inherently bad, but I'm not sure it's the way the maker was intended to work. I think I would rather have it convert it back to ore - this would also give some value to the ore storage upgrade also, which in my opinion is pretty worthless at the moment (and even more so if the second option goes through since you would always be spending ore as fast as you could).

Quote from: Kithros on June 02, 2011, 11:11:48 AM
... this would also give some value to the ore storage upgrade also, which in my opinion is pretty worthless at the moment

Oh snap!  My words almost exactly. :)

Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

as long as the vacuum doesn't function while ore reserves are full.

The release is pretty fun I must say :) and now I find myself moping up every last bit of A-C laying around in my "mines"

Hmmm.  You raise an interesting point and give me another idea.
What if a vacuum converts back to ore (plain ore, not remnant ore) as you said.  I increase the ore storage amount that the upgrades give you.  I add a button to a maker called "burst".  If you click the burst button, that maker will convert all ore in the ore storage instantly into creeper.

So, vacuums would get to work in the simple way (option 1), there could still be a "creeper bomb" option, and the ore storage upgrade just became 'interesting'....

Maybe you can make the release button activated when you hold down mouse button, and stop releasing when you let go of it?
that way you can control your burst.

Quote from: Grauniad on June 02, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

is that a new upgrade? if not the I think that's just ore rig mining speed.

Quote from: Grauniad on June 02, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

Hmmm...  That's a tricky question.  Let me stare at the code and think about it.  The upgrade changes the conversion rate from ore to creeper.  I suppose when creeper is turned back into ore it needs to be done so in accordance with the current upgrade based ratio.

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 11:18:31 AM
Hmmm.  You raise an interesting point and give me another idea.
What if a vacuum converts back to ore (plain ore, not remnant ore) as you said.  I increase the ore storage amount that the upgrades give you.  I add a button to a maker called "burst".  If you click the burst button, that maker will convert all ore in the ore storage instantly into creeper.

So, vacuums would get to work in the simple way (option 1), there could still be a "creeper bomb" option, and the ore storage upgrade just became 'interesting'....

That would work pretty well, but one side effect of this would be that it would trivialize building multiple creeper makers when remnants aren't involved - unless it had a cooldown to the burst ability, or had some kind of efficiency decrease when using it, since you could always just burst on the same maker over and over again instead of using multiple makers. Not a huge point since I rarely use multiple makers at the same place anyway, but worth considering still. Other than that I think that idea would be perfect.

I use multiple makers to simply dump all my creeper out at once anyways.

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 11:21:59 AM

Quote from: Grauniad on June 02, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

Hmmm...  That's a tricky question.  Let me stare at the code and think about it.  The upgrade changes the conversion rate from ore to creeper.  I suppose when creeper is turned back into ore it needs to be done so in accordance with the current upgrade based ratio.

Ok, I think this would not be a problem.  I got confused there for a minute.  The efficiency upgrade is a ore rig upgrade.  It increases the efficiency that rigs pull ore from the ground.  It effectively makes ore get mined faster _and_ increases the efficiency of the mining process (so you get more ore out of a deposit).

Makers operate at a fixed conversion ratio of 1 ore to 30000 creeper.  So reversing this process would yield 1 ore for every 30000 creeper vacuumed up.

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 11:33:17 AM

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 11:21:59 AM

Quote from: Grauniad on June 02, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

Hmmm...  That's a tricky question.  Let me stare at the code and think about it.  The upgrade changes the conversion rate from ore to creeper.  I suppose when creeper is turned back into ore it needs to be done so in accordance with the current upgrade based ratio.

Ok, I think this would not be a problem.  I got confused there for a minute.  The efficiency upgrade is a ore rig upgrade.  It increases the efficiency that rigs pull ore from the ground.  It effectively makes ore get mined faster _and_ increases the efficiency of the mining process (so you get more ore out of a deposit).

Makers operate at a fixed conversion ratio of 1 ore to 30000 creeper.  So reversing this process would yield 1 ore for every 30000 creeper vacuumed up.

Now I'm confused: Link for Virgil only. (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=6500.msg37804#msg37804)

Quote from: Kithros on June 02, 2011, 11:24:15 AM
That would work pretty well, but one side effect of this would be that it would trivialize building multiple creeper makers when remnants aren't involved - unless it had a cooldown to the burst ability, or had some kind of efficiency decrease when using it, since you could always just burst on the same maker over and over again instead of using multiple makers. Not a huge point since I rarely use multiple makers at the same place anyway, but worth considering still. Other than that I think that idea would be perfect.

Interesting observations... It would mean that one viable strategy, some of the time, would be to build only one Maker and upgade ore storage to the max.  Wait and then burst all ore as necessary from that single Maker.  But as you say, often I essentially operate this way anyway (just a single Maker).

You might find yourself building more than one Maker primarily as mop-up units to collect any surviving anti-creeper.

I chose for the second option: store it in a phasic tank (with a large capacity) to be able to release it later, thus allowing to produce a powerful anti-Creeper bomb without the use of shields and such.

I prefer this above the conversion back into ore for 4 reasons:

1. Converting ore again into anti-Creeper is very time consuming, especially because the mopping up already costs some time.

2. The maker doesn't have much fire power (only 120K of anti-creeper per second at 4x) and being able to release the phasic tank would make it a much better weapon against stronger enemies. Just compare 120K to the 11.5M of damage a launcher missile can do. Releasing a Creeper bomb can be very useful when trying to build a nullifier close to a very strong emitter or to slow down very fast and heavy drones.

3. Multiple makers are still needed for the initial conversion of ore and remnants into anti-Creeper (1), for fighting at multiple fronts (2), for mopping up anti-Creeper (3), to be able to release anti-Creeper bombs at different locations simultaneously (4) and to release more than the maximum size of the phasic tank at once (5).

4. Ore storage is still very useful, because you'll often collect most of your ore and remnants at the start of the map and it takes quite some time to convert all of it into anti-Creeper, while you probably will fight the toughest enemies in the end. I always have my ore storage filled up completely before I start my final assault (which merely applies to playing tough code maps and is less applicable to the current in-game maps).

Quote from: Krell on June 02, 2011, 11:21:38 AM

Quote from: Grauniad on June 02, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Virgil, a thought hit me that could put the kibosh on the "recycle idea. Doesn't the current "efficiency upgrade" for ore add a 10% factor in ore-to-Anti-Creeper conversion? If so, does it mean that I can make A-C, recycle it back into ore and make x% more, rinse, and repeat?

is that a new upgrade? if not the I think that's just ore rig mining speed.

No, the existing upgrade does do more than just increase mining speed, but it does not increase the conversion ratio either. One ore in the deposit does not equal one ore in the storage. By upgrading your rigs, the amount of ore they subtract from the deposit every second is unchanged, but they add x% more. In other words, the upgrade makes your rigs give you ore faster without depleting it from the ground any faster. You get it x% faster AND get x% more of it.

(Mind you, this only affects ore rigs. Makers and remnants are unaffected and function as normal.)

I think converting it back into ore makes more sense... but storing it and being able to release it all at once would be a lot more fun!

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 02, 2011, 03:57:47 PM
I think converting it back into ore makes more sense

It would make sense if you would be able to do other things with ore than making anti-Creeper out of it, but why would it be converted back and then convert it again (3rd conversion). Sounds like an ineffective technology for the future.

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 02, 2011, 03:57:47 PM
storing it and being able to release it all at once would be a lot more fun!

Yeah, fun and powerful.

What about making the "Vacuum-tank" a structure?

the maker could have settings to turn G-creeper into oar, or (if oar is full) send it to a vacuum chamber structure. If you had more than one, then it would be evenly distributed to all active ones(you could deactivate ones you don't want filled). Destroyed/detonated vacuum chambers would burst-out all the creeper in them at once. In order to be useful, they would have to be build-able on all surfaces like beacons. This solves some of the problems with the other 2 choices. If bombing was something wanted in the game, the vacuum chambers could be a movable unit. I like that better than suicide-ing  makers.

So: makers maintain there principle function, the G-creeper gets vacuumed, oar can be mined more-or-less uninterrupted, you get a new structure, upgrades are still valuable- but have a balanced value to other upgrades, and makes defending infrastructure a priority.

The 'hybrid' model that has come out of this discussion is this:
-Makers vacuum up Anti-Creeper and turn it into ore (like option 1)
-Makers have a 'burst' button that will dump instantly the entire ore stash into anti-creeper.
-I increase the benefit of the ore storage tech upgrade.  So you could have up to say 2000 stored ore.

The conversion rate of ore to creeper is 1:30000.  One ore makes thirty thousand creeper.  This means that 2000 ore wound make 60000000 (60 million) creeper.

Now you still have to mine that 2000 ore... but this is true in any model.  Basically, the burst button is just another kind of emission setting.  You have (1x, 2x, 4x, Burst).  Sometimes you would use a Maker just as you currently do, to provide support for an assault by creating anti-creeper at the rate you are producing it.  At other times you might decide to wait and store up ore so that you can burst emit it at the right time and location.

Vacuuming up creeper in this model turns it back into ore.  You can now use that ore to slowly emit anti-creeper via 1-4x settings, or you can emit it all as anti-creeper all at once using the burst button.

This seems like it might provide the most benefits discussed with few negatives... but maybe I have overlooked something. Thoughts on the hybrid model?  I will add it as an option to the poll.

OOOOOO so the maker dosn't blow-up when you do a burst!!! ok. I like it, would save a lot of time..

How about vacuum speed? how will all that work?

Vacuum speed is basically as fast as possible. A maker vacuums up all 9 subcells underneath it each frame.

I like the Vacuum as it is actually.. Maybe a little bigger "tank" and a burst sensetive button.

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 06:09:57 PM
The 'hybrid' model that has come out of this discussion is this:
-Makers vacuum up Anti-Creeper and turn it into ore (like option 1)
-Makers have a 'burst' button that will dump instantly the entire ore stash into anti-creeper.
-I increase the benefit of the ore storage tech upgrade.  So you could have up to say 2000 stored ore.

The conversion rate of ore to creeper is 1:30000.  One ore makes thirty thousand creeper.  This means that 2000 ore wound make 60000000 (60 million) creeper.

Now you still have to mine that 2000 ore... but this is true in any model.  Basically, the burst button is just another kind of emission setting.  You have (1x, 2x, 4x, Burst).  Sometimes you would use a Maker just as you currently do, to provide support for an assault by creating anti-creeper at the rate you are producing it.  At other times you might decide to wait and store up ore so that you can burst emit it at the right time and location.

Vacuuming up creeper in this model turns it back into ore.  You can now use that ore to slowly emit anti-creeper via 1-4x settings, or you can emit it all as anti-creeper all at once using the burst button.

Sounds good too!

How about a 10%, a 25% and a 100% burst button? That would allow the player to divide the total amount of ore over several makers / several bursts.

If you don't reset the votes, we can't recast our votes now that there are more options...

Ok votes reset now that the third option has been added and subsequent discussions.

I think a maker should be able to operate in either vacuum or anti creeper making mode; but not both at once.

I voted for 'hybrid' now, because it does exactly the same thing as option 2, but it's faster to move it from the vacuum maker to another one to release it, plus I like the larger ore storage.

I'm glad the maker got a little more powerful, because I always felt it had more potential than it currently was able to show in the game. :)

I would still like to be able to release for instance 10% / 25% bursts though.

Quote from: Katra on June 02, 2011, 07:06:38 PM
I think a maker should be able to operate in either vacuum or anti creeper making mode; but not both at once.

In hybrid mode this would be the case, because creating anti-Creeper and sucking it up immediately doesn't have any effect.

I voted for hybrid also, because I like the idea of have control of the burst.

One more question: what about remnants? Can you burst these immediately? Or do they have to be converted into Creeper the normal way first? Being able to burst them would change the current story/bonus maps for sure....

Hmmm....
The easy answer here for game mechanics is that only the ore stash can be burst.  Remnant ore must be processed at a slower rate.  It is hard to explain 'why' this might be the case in the context of the made up sci-fi tech.

It also means that you still will want to have a pair of makers to convert the remnant ore into anti-creeper and vacuum it up into raw ore.

If it all can be burst, then that does change strategy on the story maps.... that is unless I don't enable vacuuming and bursting on the story maps.

Good, that's the answer I hoped for. ;)

The burst creeper must be purified, like we do in alcohole.. thats why. (filter it to make it burstable) the Maker can't handle a heavy burst without the creeper beeing filtered.

One note about the hybrid model.  To make an effective burst, I have to make the ore storage upgrade rather large compared to its current value.  Right now you start at 20 and can upgrade by 40 up to 5 times.  I need to change that to be something more like start at 50 and then each upgrade increases storage by 500.
That would top you out at 2550 storage.  This can hold more than the total ore on some maps. 

At 2550, you could burst 2550*30k = 76500k = 76.5 Million creeper in an instant.

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 07:52:54 PM
One note about the hybrid model.  To make an effective burst, I have to make the ore storage upgrade rather large compared to its current value.  Right now you start at 20 and can upgrade by 40 up to 5 times.  I need to change that to be something more like start at 50 and then each upgrade increases storage by 500.
That would top you out at 2550 storage.  This can hold more than the total ore on some maps. 

At 2550, you could burst 2550*30k = 76500k = 76.5 Million creeper in an instant.

I just changed my vote.

Well on thing i would suggest witht the vaccum mode is if you implement pipes. We should be able to direct the AC to differnt directions if we want it all to go int the pipe.

EDIT: Ignore this 

I'm not sure if you understand the Creeper vacuum. One maker sucks away all anti-Creeper (or has already done so) and another (or the same one) is able to release all of this at once (through their shared ore storage). This means anti-Creeper can be 'transported' instantly from one maker to another (anywhere on the map), so why use a pipe?

Ohh never mind. I'm still on the repulsar mechanics. But youy could still have alot of fun with pipes  :D

Sooo... would the "increase  range " upgrade increase vacuum suck area (like increase by a square sub-cell, fully doubling the original by 3rd upgrade)?  I think that would be cool,... ya.

how will the vacuum handle anti-creeper in fields, influenced by repulsers, and under gravity? Will it vacuum wile the maker is moving? What would happen if a wall block that has anti-creeper trapped in it, is passed over by a vacuuming maker? dose it get sucked up, or is it still in the box?(of cores it doesn't matter tho  :))

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 07:52:54 PM
One note about the hybrid model.  To make an effective burst, I have to make the ore storage upgrade rather large compared to its current value.  Right now you start at 20 and can upgrade by 40 up to 5 times.  I need to change that to be something more like start at 50 and then each upgrade increases storage by 500.
That would top you out at 2550 storage.  This can hold more than the total ore on some maps. 

At 2550, you could burst 2550*30k = 76500k = 76.5 Million creeper in an instant.

Yes.

*After this is implemented* Cubic, here I come!

Way to pack 20 questions in one sentence! :)

Quote from: Cotters on June 02, 2011, 11:08:12 PM
Sooo... would the "increase  range " upgrade increase vacuum suck area (like increase by a square sub-cell, fully doubling the original by 3rd upgrade)?  I think that would be cool,... ya.

No. The current implementation absorbs Anti-Creeper only from the cell the Maker is located in. Then the "vacuum" (which A-C abhors as much as nature does) is filled with fresh A-C from adjacent cells, rinse, repeat. Results are most spectacular if you locate the Maker in dense A-C.

Quote
how will the vacuum handle anti-creeper in fields, influenced by repulsers, and under gravity?

If there is A-C in the cell the maker is in, it is absorbed. If A-C moves into the cell the Maker is in, it will be absorbed.

Quote
Will it vacuum wile the maker is moving?

Yes.

Quote
What would happen if a wall block that has anti-creeper trapped in it, is passed over by a vacuuming maker? dose it get sucked up, or is it still in the box?(of cores it doesn't matter tho  :))

Simple logic will allow you to figure this out. Makers absorb only A-C in the cell they are in. Since they can never pass over terrain, they will not affect entombed A-C.

Quote from: Grauniad on June 03, 2011, 11:25:38 AM

Quote from: Cotters on June 02, 2011, 11:08:12 PM
What would happen if a wall block that has anti-creeper trapped in it, is passed over by a vacuuming maker? dose it get sucked up, or is it still in the box?(of cores it doesn't matter tho  :))

Simple logic will allow you to figure this out. Makers absorb only A-C in the cell they are in. Since they can never pass over terrain, they will not affect entombed A-C.

I think he means AC trapped in shields.

Will vacuuming cost energy? And if so have an upgrade so it cost less energy. Maybe it could cost energy per 30000 creeper or something.

Makers don't use energy.....

But shouldn't they to vacuum?

Quote from: Yelik on June 03, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
But shouldn't they to vacuum?

no

Quote from: Yelik on June 03, 2011, 03:23:05 PM
But shouldn't they to vacuum?

The makers probably use an on board microrift that has been opened into the vacuum of space and intercepting the Creeper before it escapes. MR's don't require energy to operate either.

Quote from: Kamron3 on June 02, 2011, 08:07:23 PM

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 07:52:54 PM
One note about the hybrid model.  To make an effective burst, I have to make the ore storage upgrade rather large compared to its current value.  Right now you start at 20 and can upgrade by 40 up to 5 times.  I need to change that to be something more like start at 50 and then each upgrade increases storage by 500.
That would top you out at 2550 storage.  This can hold more than the total ore on some maps. 

At 2550, you could burst 2550*30k = 76500k = 76.5 Million creeper in an instant.

I just changed my vote.

So did I! :)

I still prefer the pipes idea.

I wan the creeper Vaccum and the pipes. Both would be fun to mess with  ;D I personally think the pipes should be used to move around and olny the maker that sucks up the creeper can expell it again. Then we could have pipes and still have burst, which is all I want  :)

no point in pipes if can just teleport AC everywhere. The vacuum lacks a chance for things to go wrong, two makers at different points and you're pretty much just teleporting it all elsewhere rather than through pipes which could be hit by creeper or drones and spring a leak.

what I want is a teleporter, no pipes, no ore, 2 makers linked, 1 way creeper flow

Quote from: Krell on June 03, 2011, 05:51:11 PM
no point in pipes if can just teleport AC everywhere. The vacuum lacks a chance for things to go wrong, two makers at different points and you're pretty much just teleporting it all elsewhere rather than through pipes which could be hit by creeper or drones and spring a leak.

I think you overestimate the power of anti-Creeper. It's not that important. Your other weapons supply much more fire power. When you still like to play around with 'pipes', just use repulsors or make a nice map with fields moving (both kinds of) Creeper around.

Quote from: thepenguin on June 03, 2011, 06:52:07 PM
what I want is a teleporter, no pipes, no ore, 2 makers linked, 1 way creeper flow

That's what the hybrid solution does. The fact that it goes through to ore storage is something that doesn't matter (although it determines the amount of Creeper you can burst at once).

Quote from: Krell on June 03, 2011, 01:13:51 PM

Quote from: Grauniad on June 03, 2011, 11:25:38 AM

Quote from: Cotters on June 02, 2011, 11:08:12 PM
What would happen if a wall block that has anti-creeper trapped in it, is passed over by a vacuuming maker? dose it get sucked up, or is it still in the box?(of cores it doesn't matter tho  :))

Simple logic will allow you to figure this out. Makers absorb only A-C in the cell they are in. Since they can never pass over terrain, they will not affect entombed A-C.

I think he means AC trapped in shields.

Yup. thank you Krell, i did mean shields
[/quote]

Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 06:09:57 PM
The 'hybrid' model that has come out of this discussion is this:
-Makers vacuum up Anti-Creeper and turn it into ore (like option 1)
-Makers have a 'burst' button that will dump instantly the entire ore stash into anti-creeper.
-I increase the benefit of the ore storage tech upgrade.  So you could have up to say 2000 stored ore.

The conversion rate of ore to creeper is 1:30000.  One ore makes thirty thousand creeper.  This means that 2000 ore wound make 60000000 (60 million) creeper.

Now you still have to mine that 2000 ore... but this is true in any model.  Basically, the burst button is just another kind of emission setting.  You have (1x, 2x, 4x, Burst).  Sometimes you would use a Maker just as you currently do, to provide support for an assault by creating anti-creeper at the rate you are producing it.  At other times you might decide to wait and store up ore so that you can burst emit it at the right time and location.

Vacuuming up creeper in this model turns it back into ore.  You can now use that ore to slowly emit anti-creeper via 1-4x settings, or you can emit it all as anti-creeper all at once using the burst button.

This seems like it might provide the most benefits discussed with few negatives... but maybe I have overlooked something. Thoughts on the hybrid model?  I will add it as an option to the poll.

That could change gameplay a little... does that mean you can have say, 8 ore rigs or something, and have one maker set to burst so that it will spit out any ore that's produced right away? And will the burst setting also use up processed ore? (whatever you call it... the crystal energy of ore) And the pipes idea could still be very helpful for custom maps, maybe if you have creeper and anti-creeper pipes?

creeper pipes are called fields =P and no. remnant ore must be processed into AC then vacuumed up before being burstable

how about we just get rid of pipes, tanks, and converting back to ore?

make makers be "Greeper teleporters" and have them send it between each other, no problems with burst, no problems with story, and then you can just have a really dense "Greeper pile" and have makers "send" and "receive" greeper to and from the pile?

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 04, 2011, 12:42:54 AM
That could change gameplay a little... does that mean you can have say, 8 ore rigs or something, and have one maker set to burst so that it will spit out any ore that's produced right away? And will the burst setting also use up processed ore? (whatever you call it... the crystal energy of ore) And the pipes idea could still be very helpful for custom maps, maybe if you have creeper and anti-creeper pipes?

Bursting would be a manual process.  You would have to select a maker and click a burst button.  When you did this, it would instantly convert all ore (not remnant ore, just the ore in your stash) into anti-creeper.  Might there be a small penalty for doing this?  Perhaps.  The burst conversion from ore to anti-creeper might be around 10% less efficient than any of the 1x,2x,4x settings.

Vacuuming would convert anti-creeper back into ore.  This process is 1 to 1.  So if you emit anti-creeper, vacuum it, emit it again (never bursting) you may not lose any... though it you could lose some due to evaporation if you let it flow around outside a confined area.

Neither vacuuming or bursting are required elements for game play (we don't have either right now).  The original idea for a game play extension was a vacuum concept.  This can still be done in the absence of providing bursting.  Bursting came about as a result of an initial beta implementation for vacuuming.  In this beta implementation a maker could vacuum up anti-creeper and store X amount of it in a _local_ tank.  I had a "release" button that would dump the tank.  I observed that this was kind of fun to play with... hence the current idea of bursting.

My plan right now is to implement vacuum hybrid mode (anti-creeper back into ore).  I will also add a few burst buttons (10%, 25%, 100%) to makers.  I think this model could make sense, and is worth implementing and trying.  After that, I'll evaluate the state of affairs and try to decide what is best.

Why don't you make the vacuüm cleaner option more like a gravity field? This way all the creeper close enough to the creeper maker will close in on it and this way you can also collect creeper.

It will create situations where creeper will stack up arrount the creeper maker, and enabling you to sent the creeper maker with a huge stack of creeper around it into an aere with enemy creeper. There you could release the sucking function and the friendly creeper will spread again.

I like the idea of bursting, I really do. I was just thinking about some of the possible downfalls to it. It might change times on a few days at the least.

I think the vacuum / bomb is like cheating if used this way. If there is going to be a vacuum there should be things we can only do with recycled creeper like make frozen creeper or infuse it into the dirt. This would allow the player to make a creeper shield or an automated attack once the enemy creeper erodes an infused part of the ground.

I think it'd be nice to actually have storage tank structures you have to build (must be on top of land, like reactors).

Several levels have a pretty limiting amount of land to build on, and you have to make tactical decisions about the balance of energy/tech structures.

Well, if you have to build the storage structures on that same limited area, then it becomes another tough choice that can make or break your attempt at defeating the creeper, and you become more invested in it. :D

You guys shouldn't forget that if you'd burst out your ore supplies it's equal to letting your maker run just a few seconds longer...

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 03:15:29 AM
You guys shouldn't forget that if you'd burst out your ore supplies it's equal to letting your maker run just a few seconds longer...

we already have conversion bombs, if a player wants to reuse your AC that badly they can use repulsors and shields. If the vacuum is just going to be for custom maps than it should be its own unit and not an ability of a maker. Also burst mode should be a tech upgrade for the makers. busting should kill the maker too now that I think about it

Quote from: Eric on June 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 03:15:29 AM
You guys shouldn't forget that if you'd burst out your ore supplies it's equal to letting your maker run just a few seconds longer...

we already have conversion bombs, if a player wants to reuse your AC that badly they can use repulsors and shields. If the vacuum is just going to be for custom maps than it should be its own unit and not an ability of a maker. Also burst mode should be a tech upgrade for the makers. busting should kill the maker too now that I think about it

Bursting is actually not as strong as it seems. Making it a tech upgrade or destroying the maker would render it almost useless.
You already have to upgrade your ore supplies and can't use any ore from remnants (atleast not directly). As far as I know it's only very useful when trying to build a nullifier near a very strong emitter, cause when using it in an ordinary fight it isn't strong enough to push the creeper away (not far atleast).
The maker is a defensive weapon so there's no problem in giving it a small offensive ability.

Quote from: Eric on June 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM
we already have conversion bombs, if a player wants to reuse your AC that badly they can use repulsors and shields. If the vacuum is just going to be for custom maps than it should be its own unit and not an ability of a maker. Also burst mode should be a tech upgrade for the makers. busting should kill the maker too now that I think about it

Now that is just getting a little extreme. :)
The maker is the most docile of all units, and this adds a new punch to it. It allows you to reuse a finite resource. The goal of this is to make it economically valuable to even the best players. As it stands, the cost to recovery ratio of using repulsers is to slow and not worth it if you are going for the fastest time. This makes it much more valuable. Destroying the maker, or making the tank a unit, all devalues this new technique. Also, it creates more value in the current upgrade system.

And best of all, this system fits in so well with current gameplay that you do not need to make a new upgrade or unit for it to work! 8)

Quote from: Eric on June 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 03:15:29 AM
You guys shouldn't forget that if you'd burst out your ore supplies it's equal to letting your maker run just a few seconds longer...

we already have conversion bombs, if a player wants to reuse your AC that badly they can use repulsors and shields. If the vacuum is just going to be for custom maps than it should be its own unit and not an ability of a maker. Also burst mode should be a tech upgrade for the makers. busting should kill the maker too now that I think about it

This ability is as strong as regular, and made because people didn't want to use repulsors and shields for it takes longer than beating a map without it (for me)

Any chance drones could also vacuum up creeper? And then drop it when it dies?

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 10:38:35 AM
This ability is as strong as regular, and made because people didn't want to use repulsors and shields for it takes longer than beating a map without it (for me)

A creeper vacuum would be better than constantly moving around repulsors and shields. It would be faster and use less energy. Plus, it would help save every last bit of ore on maps where ore is scarce. 

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 10:38:35 AM

Quote from: Eric on June 05, 2011, 10:23:15 AM

Quote from: ontheworld on June 05, 2011, 03:15:29 AM
You guys shouldn't forget that if you'd burst out your ore supplies it's equal to letting your maker run just a few seconds longer...

we already have conversion bombs, if a player wants to reuse your AC that badly they can use repulsors and shields. If the vacuum is just going to be for custom maps than it should be its own unit and not an ability of a maker. Also burst mode should be a tech upgrade for the makers. busting should kill the maker too now that I think about it

This ability is as strong as regular, and made because people didn't want to use repulsors and shields for it takes longer than beating a map without it (for me)

I understand that this will devalue the new technique and that's the point. The game works great the way it is so by adding a vacuum for player convenience should be just a convenience and should have the same cost as any other technique. The player should not be rewarded or "saved" by a vacuum for inefficiently using AC, currently the time it takes to use the repulsors and shields method is the penalty. The reason I think the vacuum should be its own unit is then a map-designer can choose to let you use that unit or ability on the map they make. Also the storyline missions would be unaffected. Having a burst upgrade could have the same effect if the map designer could choose what upgrades would be available.

of course I am all for the most fun player experience and these are just my opinions on what that would be.

Quote from: virgilw on June 04, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
Bursting would be a manual process.  You would have to select a maker and click a burst button.  When you did this, it would instantly convert all ore (not remnant ore, just the ore in your stash) into anti-creeper.  Might there be a small penalty for doing this?  Perhaps.  The burst conversion from ore to anti-creeper might be around 10% less efficient than any of the 1x,2x,4x settings.

That would be sad. It's rare that you actually come anywhere close to running out of creeper even without vacuuming, so the penalty would not do much to actual gameplay. However, it would hurt us OCD ones who want to be super efficient and not actually be a penalty.

I do love the idea though. Creeper is great fun to play with. I love watching it flow, making it do weird things. This would be another chance to make cool stuff happen.

Quote from: Eric on June 05, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
I understand that this will devalue the new technique and that's the point. The game works great the way it is so by adding a vacuum for player convenience should be just a convenience and should have the same cost as any other technique. The player should not be rewarded or "saved" by a vacuum for inefficiently using AC, currently the time it takes to use the repulsors and shields method is the penalty. The reason I think the vacuum should be its own unit is then a map-designer can choose to let you use that unit or ability on the map they make. Also the storyline missions would be unaffected. Having a burst upgrade could have the same effect if the map designer could choose what upgrades would be available.

Please realize the maker currently is much weaker than any other weapon. It hardly ever pays of to build more than 1-2 of them, especially when trying to set a good score/fast time. Against the stronger emitters you will see in the code maps and custom maps this difference in fire power will become more evident. This change will make the game more balanced than it is right now, so just wait until you can play around with it. You will also need repulsors and shields more than you've needed them before.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 05:56:46 PM
That would be sad. It's rare that you actually come anywhere close to running out of creeper even without vacuuming, so the penalty would not do much to actual gameplay. However, it would hurt us OCD ones who want to be super efficient and not actually be a penalty.

You will run out of ore and much sooner than you expect. Keep in mind that most of the story maps feature relatively large amount of ore that won't be available in future maps (although it will be up to the custom map maker to balance all resources perfectly).

And don't forget there is a penalty for using the vacuum system: the building costs + time for the additional makers. When aiming for a fast time every second and packet of energy does matter.

Question: will the code-map update be delayed to include the vacuum feature? I would prefer if they were separate updates.

Comments:
     Making structure-holding tanks for vacuumed creeper would only be a good idea if the oar values were not changed; but they would be so.. ya. As structure and oar value changes are both good solutions to the same problem; doing the (i think?) easier and (probably?) more popular option of new oar values is best. 

     I like how much time vacuuming will save the most. It gives a player more time to play more maps.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 05, 2011, 06:53:29 PM
Please realize the maker currently is much weaker than any other weapon. It hardly ever pays of to build more than 1-2 of them

QuoteYou will run out of ore and much sooner than you expect. Keep in mind that most of the story maps feature relatively large amount of ore that won't be available in future maps (although it will be up to the custom map maker to balance all resources perfectly).

And don't forget there is a penalty for using the vacuum system: the building costs + time for the additional makers. When aiming for a fast time every second and packet of energy does matter.

So essentially, the punishment is if you use the burst (and so run out sooner) then you'll have to revert to the weaker, quite unbalanced version of the maker.

I have no desire for this. I prefer games to let me use the weapons rather than put barriers between me and fun.

Also- I doubt in speed runs there will be any need to build more than one maker. You can just let the creeper deposit and sweep over it. In the past I only built makers en masse when I wanted to burst anyway.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
So essentially, the punishment is if you use the burst (and so run out sooner) then you'll have to revert to the weaker, quite unbalanced version of the maker.

I have no desire for this. I prefer games to let me use the weapons rather than put barriers between me and fun.

It was never said the normal maker uses are unbalanced. Also, I enjoy it very much. It is a lot of fun, and it is an effective technique too. 8)

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
Also- I doubt in speed runs there will be any need to build more than one maker. You can just let the creeper deposit and sweep over it. In the past I only built makers en masse when I wanted to burst anyway.

Just wait for code and custom maps. In some of those you may need to use the burst button just to survive. :o And some of those maps will probably be mine ;).

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
So essentially, the punishment is if you use the burst (and so run out sooner) then you'll have to revert to the weaker, quite unbalanced version of the maker.

Nope, I would say the maker was unbalanced when using it as a weapon to attack. As a defensive/support weapon it's very good. With the new burst functionality it becomes useful for strikes as well.

The reason I said you will be running out of ore sooner, is because the story maps offer very large amounts of ore compared to the maps you'll soon be playing.

You won't run out of ore (much) sooner by bursting for 5 reasons:
1. You will probably use the burst option for maybe 20-30% of your ore and only burst all of it right before completing the map. The rest of the time the maker will be more useful in its role as defensive/support weapon.
2. You can recycle all anti-Creeper that is left on the map.
3. You can only burst what's in store and despite the ore storage upgrades there's still a limit to it.
4. You will be able to burst only parts of your ore storage.
5. Anti-Creeper will soon offer another feature, which makes it worthy to keep some ore in stock and keep using your makers defensively.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
Also- I doubt in speed runs there will be any need to build more than one maker. You can just let the creeper deposit and sweep over it. In the past I only built makers en masse when I wanted to burst anyway.

It all depends on the map you'll be playing. Some will offer lots of ore and maybe very little space to build reactors, so some maps will require you to use more makers. Other maps require you to fight at several fronts simultaneously, so multiple makers will be helpful. Currently there's no role for makers in maps with very high intensity emitters (think of 100M+ emitters). The burst option will give them that role.

this sounds like it could be interesting if its some thing you would need. I will post my 2 cents after I play with it.

Quote from: UpperKEES on June 05, 2011, 09:04:07 PM

Nope, I would say the maker was unbalanced when using it as a weapon to attack. As a defensive/support weapon it's very good. With the new burst functionality it becomes useful for strikes as well.

If you're on the defensive then baring a very small number of maps (e.g. trickery) you're probably doing something wrong. That limits its use, though it is excellent where it is useful. On most maps you should be pushing forward continuously. That's part of why the new ability is awesome. It means that the maker will be much more useful on a much wider range of maps including as you said high intensity emitters.

QuoteYou won't run out of ore (much) sooner by bursting for 5 reasons:
1. You will probably use the burst option for maybe 20-30% of your ore and only burst all of it right before completing the map. The rest of the time the maker will be more useful in its role as defensive/support weapon.

Quite a few maps have multiple high intensity emitters which you could pacify with the burst ability. There's lots of uses throughout the levels. Bursting a hundred creeper could stop the need for energy costly blasters early on.

Quote2. You can recycle all anti-Creeper that is left on the map.

That will mean you have a lot more anti creeper to use, yeah.

Quote3. You can only burst what's in store and despite the ore storage upgrades there's still a limit to it.

High limit, compared to the typical amount of ore in a level. You can burst a lot, which sounds fun.

Quote5. Anti-Creeper will soon offer another feature, which makes it worthy to keep some ore in stock and keep using your makers defensively.

You don't tend to need to use it defensively for that long. A couple minutes while you defeat a pool of creeper. You should soon move into offense.

QuoteIt all depends on the map you'll be playing. Some will offer lots of ore and maybe very little space to build reactors, so some maps will require you to use more makers. Other maps require you to fight at several fronts simultaneously, so multiple makers will be helpful. Currently there's no role for makers in maps with very high intensity emitters (think of 100M+ emitters). The burst option will give them that role.

Yes, and ones with high intensity emitters tend to be harder.

You were talking about some need to have multiple makers to hoover up any anti creeper. Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

You seem to know quite a lot about how the new functionality is supposed to perform. Care to explain how you came by that knowledge?

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
If you're on the defensive then baring a very small number of maps (e.g. trickery) you're probably doing something wrong. That limits its use, though it is excellent where it is useful. On most maps you should be pushing forward continuously. That's part of why the new ability is awesome. It means that the maker will be much more useful on a much wider range of maps including as you said high intensity emitters.

Like I said your choice of weapons (and other units) will differ from map to map and will even differ more when the custom maps become available. I appreciate it however that you try to teach me something about pushing forward continuously.... ;D

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
Quite a few maps have multiple high intensity emitters which you could pacify with the burst ability. There's lots of uses throughout the levels. Bursting a hundred creeper could stop the need for energy costly blasters early on.

These 'high intensity emitters' are nothing compared to what you'll experience soon. ;) Hundred (or thousand) units of Creeper won't do more than a scratch of damage, so you'll have to use the bursts wisely in cases when it can make a difference. The fire power of for instance the launcher will remain much greater.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
High limit, compared to the typical amount of ore in a level.

Don't forget you'll need to increase your ore storage to be able to make large bursts. For that you'll need tech domes and I doubt it if a good player would spend his first technytes on the ore storage.

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
You don't tend to need to use it defensively for that long. A couple minutes while you defeat a pool of creeper. You should soon move into offense.

I said there will be a new feature of anti-Creeper. You don't know what I'm talking about (yet) and I'm gonna keep it that way. :P

There's another reason by the way why you will still use makers in production mode:
6. Remnants are not part of your ore storage, so these will have to be processed like you were used to.

Quote from: Grauniad on June 05, 2011, 11:19:45 PM

Quote from: Ytaker on June 05, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
Generally when you use it you're away from your honeycombed passageways so it just pools on the floor. You could easily collect it in a few seconds.

You seem to know quite a lot about how the new functionality is supposed to perform. Care to explain how you came by that knowledge?

Heheh! Ignorance is bless. ;)

hi im new on the forums! Creeper world is awesome. there should both phasic tank and maker burst also.

Hi Jeff and welcome aboard.

So right now the current state of affairs is that I implemented vacuum mode and it converts anti-creeper back into ore.  This ore goes back into your ore stash just like mined ore does.  Very simple and seems to work fine.

Burst mode is also implemented and it works well too.... excepting for one final issue.
When you click burst, if converts any stored ore you have into Anti-Creeper.  It will 'burst' it all at once.  It does not convert any remnants you have collected into Anti-Creeper.  I have experimented with allowing the bursting of remnants, but it is way super powerful to be able to do that.  On day 4, you can burst 4500 units of Ore into Anti-Creeper and nearly win the map with only a single Maker.

But the question remains as to what do I provide to deal with Remnants if you want to be able to burst.  If a player has say 100 collected remnants and they want to burst, what do they do?  My 'answer of the hour' is that I will do nothing.  The player either won't be able to burst in this scenario, or they will have to produce Anti-Creeper from the remnants and then vacuum it up.

Quote from: virgilw on June 10, 2011, 03:06:13 PM
Hi Jeff and welcome aboard.

So right now the current state of affairs is that I implemented vacuum mode and it converts anti-creeper back into ore.  This ore goes back into your ore stash just like mined ore does.  Very simple and seems to work fine.

Burst mode is also implemented and it works well too.... excepting for one final issue.
When you click burst, if converts any stored ore you have into Anti-Creeper.  It will 'burst' it all at once.  It does not convert any remnants you have collected into Anti-Creeper.  I have experimented with allowing the bursting of remnants, but it is way super powerful to be able to do that.  On day 4, you can burst 4500 units of Ore into Anti-Creeper and nearly win the map with only a single Maker.

But the question remains as to what do I provide to deal with Remnants if you want to be able to burst.  If a player has say 100 collected remnants and they want to burst, what do they do?  My 'answer of the hour' is that I will do nothing.  The player either won't be able to burst in this scenario, or they will have to produce Anti-Creeper from the remnants and then vacuum it up.

What if there was a way for makers to automatically convert remnant ore into stored ore, without the need to make it and vacuum it up.. maybe have a convert mode where they can convert 10 remnant ore into stored ore every second?

We need an ability to choose if we use remnants or ore.

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 10, 2011, 03:13:41 PM
What if there was a way for makers to automatically convert remnant ore into stored ore, without the need to make it and vacuum it up.. maybe have a convert mode where they can convert 10 remnant ore into stored ore every second?

Great idea Ebon_Heart! I wish we had thought of that ourselves.... ;)

The reason for UpperKEES smiley is a conversion mode is exactly what is in the current beta build.  But....

I have concerns that the convert mode isn't at all clear in its purpose.  It only exists to convert remnants to ore and that only has value for bursting.  These are fairly subtle concepts for most players.  Your typical player might click the "convert" mode and conclude that nothing is happening.  I doubt they would even notice that remnants were being converted to Ore (assuming their ore stash wasn't already full).  Even if they did, they would either say "What good is that?", or worse they might conclude that you have to convert remnants into regular ore before it can be used at all.

hi random question how do you earn a star and will you still be haveing a phastic tank!

Quote from: Jeff on June 10, 2011, 04:18:30 PM
can't wait

Stars come with posts.... legitimate posts that is.  Nothing magical happens when you get two stars.  You just have two stars under your name.  Don't post comments without value just to try to get you post count up... it will be frowned on by other members (and that is the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish).

Now, regarding the phasic tank.... the existing ore stash will accomplish the same thing as a phasic tank.  It is already shared by all makers, so putting ore back into the stash is a way to allow anti-creeper to be emitted elsewhere.

Quote from: virgilw on June 10, 2011, 03:42:31 PM
The reason for UpperKEES smiley is a conversion mode is exactly what is in the current beta build.  But....

I have concerns that the convert mode isn't at all clear in its purpose.  It only exists to convert remnants to ore and that only has value for bursting.  These are fairly subtle concepts for most players.  Your typical player might click the "convert" mode and conclude that nothing is happening.  I doubt they would even notice that remnants were being converted to Ore (assuming their ore stash wasn't already full).  Even if they did, they would either say "What good is that?", or worse they might conclude that you have to convert remnants into regular ore before it can be used at all.

At least I had the right idea! And maybe you could tweak the tutorial a little as well to better explain makers? A big questions many players have is exactly how they work, how the ore is transferred straight from the rigs to the makers without packets, and so on and so forth. If you said something about that in the tutorial, as well as better explain bursting/conversion, it might help. Plus, a lot of new players have problems with moving their maker/blaster onto the spot where the nullifier goes at the end. Just a thought. Nearly every feature of the game has a map to emphasize it, except bursting... such a shame. lol.

Jeff, it's ok to want a star... But PLEASE don't try to ge 2 stars on your first day. In a week, you'll end up as a senior member that everyone hates. Pls, only post helpful comments and such.

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 10, 2011, 06:50:59 PM
Jeff, it's ok to want a star... But PLEASE don't try to ge 2 stars on your first day. In a week, you'll end up as a senior member that everyone hates. Pls, only post helpful comments and such.

the easy way to get 5 stars is just to become a beta :) :P

I think a good middle ground for it would be to let the makers have an option to use remnants first before ore, rather than always using ore before remnants - it would still be a little tedious to spend the remnants and then vacuum it back up for the purpose of getting a big burst, but this also has added benefits such as letting the player save up for bursts while the maker is still spending the remnants normally (ie. not planning to just vacuum it back up).

Yeah, that's what some others including myself also have suggested in beta (although I think it shouldn't be an option but just standard behaviour because it shouldn't become too complicated and you'd probably always want to use your ore to increase the burst capacity anyway).

What if we have a tank to store raw AC before it gets to converted into ore. I'm assuming you can't vacuum once your is full. This could be the solution. As for remnants, I say we should be able to choose wether to burst remnants or ore. Also maybe the tank could convert remanats into ore...

why do we need all this converting to ore and storign in phasic tank?

we make makers teleporters, 1 in, 1 out, and store it all in a real "tank" made of shields

I just mean so you can still vacuum if your ores full. Thaen as it drops the tank converts it to ore.

How about making it work like this. You have The "phasic tank" which just stores anti-creeper at the same max proportional quantity as the Ore storage. Makers have 3 modes, Vacuum, Produce, and Emmit.
Vacuum would suck up anti-creeper in an area around the maker, and store it in the "phasic tank", by using fields. Produce mode and Emmit mode can be on at the same time, but dont have to be. Produce converts ore to anti-creeper, With produce only, Ore is converted to anti-creeper at a rate of 4 ore per second, while Emmit only would release 4 ore worth of anti-creeper from the "Phasic tank" per second. When both are enabled, Then it converts 2 ore's worth of anti-creeper per second, and emits it, not storing it at all(Half of the processing capacity is used for each job). There would be no capacity modes, 1x, 2x, 4x, like there is now, you would need to build more makers. Also, If a maker trying to emit cannot do so, it will (pick one of the two) act as though in both emit and convert mode, or do nothing. If A vacuum is trying to fill up the "phasic tank" with anti-creeper, and there are makers converting ore, then the makers will stop temporarily until the capacity is no longer full.
The Rate values above could be changed if need be, and optionally require energy do do some or all of these operations.
This system would have several effects...
-You would need 2 makers to produce the current production capacity of one now. This would cause you to need to make several makers if you want to produce a large amount of anti-creeper. I feel that the alternate capacity settings, while increases flexibility, allows you to produce a large amount of anti-creeper with a single maker. This system however, would require you to produce 4 makers if you want 4x capacity.
-You would have the ability to have makers convert ore while idle, which then could be released quickly with makers set to emit, or by bursting (which would only emit ~ 90% of the stored anti-creeper instantly) Or convert it and emit it at the same time, which would half the amount emitted, as one maker is doing both jobs at the same time.
-The Remnant problem would basically be that if the ore reserves are empty, the backup remnants would be converted to anti-creeper instead.
-The burst mode would be viable, as rather that depleting your entire ore reserves instantly, it would deplete the anti-creeper reserves instead, and the possible problem with vacuuming up anti-creeper possibly not fitting would be helped by disabling makers currently converting ore.
-It makes more sense, and would help with lore/explaining emitters. I'm pretty sure that Ore is not anti-creeper, so having to convert the ore to anti-creeper first would make sense from a ?technological? view, though also you could treat it as before, as because makers can do both jobs still, but at reduced rate than having two do the job, so there would be no REQUIREMENT to have 2 makers for the system to work, but it would work better, as you would get your full 4 ore worth of anti-creeper per second on the front line, and have the converting maker back in your base. On the other hand, Wondering how ore was magically transported to makers without using packets like energy is, or where the creeper in emitters came from, it could be explained with some technobabble now, as they both work the same way, stores the creeper in a "phasic tank" until an emitter emits, at which point a microrift-like warp thingy would send the creeper to the emitter/maker in emit mode.

Wow! This is good!

I was personally thinking that when one bursts with only reserve remnants, then they can only burst as much ore as their max ore storage.  Alternatively, they can't burst at all when only remnants remain.

I'd say that if the ore storage isn't full, then remnants should be converted into ore at some reasonable rate.

Welcome to the forums! And yes I believe that's what most have been thinking.

Ah I agree with the whole remnant first idea xD posted a comment on the blog before checking up here first again (reminder to get up to date I suppose :P) here's the quoted comment and as its already suggested ill sit back and see what happens xD

'Hmmmmm, whilst knowing how many features are being added to the makers and my reluctance to suggest, yet another one; What about being able to choose whether the makers prefer using remnants or stored ore to create creeper?

With preferring remnants, you could just create what I see in my mind as greeper processing factories where you shield up two or more makers, one set on vacuum the others on producing preferred remnant ore (when remnant runs out they would then go to using stored ore making the process pointless), to convert to storage. Then this could be considered the cost of using the burst feature for a lot of ore, not being less efficient, but needing to create the extra makers,shields and so on and the time needed to make your burst option more effective.

The reason I suggest this as an option rather than the default is because I know we all try and get that mined ore into storage and used up first as it takes longer xD (well at least for me) so the preference of using stored ore before remnant would be the option default.'

One thing I find frustrating is that I have no idea who most of the people here are replying to, And I would request that they put an indicator like @"insert pseudonym here"

Quote from: Ranakastrasz on June 12, 2011, 07:53:33 AM
One thing I find frustrating is that I have no idea who most of the people here are replying to, And I would request that they put an indicator like @"insert pseudonym here"

Most replies are a response to the previous post or a question/remark in general. When specifically addressing someone or a certain part of their post, it's common habit to use the quote functionality provided by the forums (like I just did). Using the @-sign + name could work as well, but it would force people to read back previous posts and is more useful for forums without a quoting option. I still use it occasionally in the forum chat though. :)

If a creeper maker that has stored Anti-Creeper in its "Tank" is destroyed what happens to the Anti-Creeper? Is it destroyed as well or is it released?

I believe there's just one big tank in the LS that automaticlly teleports greeper to other makers.
EDIT: nvm, just read the blog! I would presume that the on board anti creeper would be released if the maker were destroyed.

Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 12, 2011, 06:27:20 PM
I believe there's just one big tank in the LS that automaticlly teleports greeper to other makers.
EDIT: nvm, just read the blog! I would presume that the on board anti creeper would be released if the maker were destroyed.

it would appear so (trying not to say too much)

Thanks to all for their input on this feature.  I think I have arrived at a final solution, and update 1 will be out shortly. Check the blog for a description of what I did:
http://knucklecracker.com/blog/index.php/2011/06/status-update-june-12-2011/#comments

I will unsticky this top now so we can move on to the release of Update 1 and new things...

nice!  interesting ideas everybody had too...