One thing I found somewhat wasteful was that I generally have large pools of greeper after finishing a section, especially if I have to multitask. One thing I tried was to use repulsors to push it up and use a stream of them to move it along to the next area, so as to not waste a finite resource. The problem with this, aside from the number of repulsors needed to make a steam the covers the whole area, is that my greeper doesnt stay in, say, a horizontal beam, and will fall out of it, which has the annoying result of a lot of it falling into an area that I may not be able to get it back out of easily. I could use fields, but a cool idea I thought of (which I made a post on it in an editor discussion) would be make repulsors effect greeper and creeper differently. creeper is the same as it is now, but greeper would have a field shaped more like this (facing up example)(There are no arrow type things for diagonals, so I am using slashes, which has some ambiguity)
/^\
/^\
/^\
and for up and to the right
0>/
>/^
/^0
Which would hold the greeper into a thin stream, and force it upwards. You could use this to make a stream that would easily force the greeper to where you want it, without wasting as much as a drop on the way (though the transition from one repulsor to another when turning may be a problem.) I realized that this may not be ideal when you are pushing your greeper into creeper, so you may want to have an option to toggle these, and for the lemming mode, disabling this all-together may obviously be a good idea as well.
I agree
I use repulsors all the time to contain the flow of greeper, that and shields, so it's not being wasted flowing into upper levels. I even sometimes point repulsors at each other and make uber dense balls of greeper, just for fun.
I prefer repulsors to behave to same for Creeper and anti-Creeper, just because it makes sense. When you use shields and/or diagonal repulsors as well, you'll be able to prevent Creeper from falling outside/inside the sides of beams.
That said it would be nice if a repulsors would be able to pull as well. This way you could use it as a tractor beam on anti-Creeper. When this beam would still operate during movement it would act as an anti-Creeper transporter.
I was thinking about something like this just last night. I thought maybe a repuslor could have modes of operation. Mode 0 might be how it is now. Mode 1, might point the edge field inward. Mode 2, might point the edge field outward. Like so
Mode 0 (repulsor pointing up in this example)
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
Mode 1
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
Mode 2
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
Mode 1 is good for sending a single, thin stream up and towards something else (like another repulsor). You could basically build a pipe with this mode. Mode 2 is good for keeping things out of the beam. Imagine if the beam were horizontal and creeper fell onto it. This would effectively create a horizontal surface for the creeper to fall against.
These things would be a pain to implement, but might be very useful....
I'd rather see a new unit that can mop up (somewhat like a vacuum) existing creeper and re-transmit it to the makers...
Would come in really handy in maps with a lot of creeper converted to anti-creeper, or if my anti-creeper is in the wrong position. And I would not have to build a connected set of repulsor beams.
I agree with the new unit. A greeper vacuum would be nice.
I want both!
Quote from: thepenguin on May 31, 2011, 08:52:47 PM
I want both!
Same I definitely want a creeper vacuum also I wish the maker was anchored and it would be more powerful or something.
I am experimenting with both. The respulsor mods are pretty difficult... but I think I can pull them off. The field pattern required to support the alternate modes in 8 rotations is actually pretty complex. But a quick experiment shows me I can do it... it will just take a while to get it all right and properly tested.
The vacuum idea is something I might can add to the Maker. Allow it to suck up anti-creeper and store it (up to a limit). There would also be a button to release the reservoir. I could see people making little 'filling stations' out of shields and makers. Other makers come in and fill up with anti creeper then fly into danger and release it all at the right moment... like a push assault against a hard to reach emitter.
Of course the OCD crowd (which is all of us) will now feel obligated to mop up every last subcell of anti-creeper so none of it goes to waste :)
QuoteAllow it to suck up anti-creeper and store it (up to a limit).
Maybe have upgrades that allow you to increase the limit that anti-creeper can be stored?
I've never understood why the vacuum idea was so popular seeing as in any given map so far I've either had enough ore to make it my primary weapon, or used up all the ore in a single final push anyways and used absolutely none anywhere else in the level. I figured it was so people wouldn't just leave makers running at X4 at all times and try to be careful with their greeper.
Quote from: Krell on June 01, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
I've never understood why the vacuum idea was so popular seeing as in any given map so far I've either had enough ore to make it my primary weapon, or used up all the ore in a single final push anyways and used absolutely none anywhere else in the level. I figured it was so people wouldn't just leave makers running at X4 at all times and try to be careful with their greeper.
It's for us CDO
*-types - I've spent many a fun hour playing with moving anti-creeper around.
CDO - it's similar to OCD, but the letters are arranged alphabetically.
Quote from: Krell on June 01, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
I've never understood why the vacuum idea was so popular seeing as in any given map so far I've either had enough ore to make it my primary weapon, or used up all the ore in a single final push anyways and used absolutely none anywhere else in the level. I figured it was so people wouldn't just leave makers running at X4 at all times and try to be careful with their greeper.
Maybe an anti-creeper vacuum can be used in maps were ore is rare and you have to save every last drop of it? Plus certain maps have areas where anti-creeper gets stuck in holes (after an emitter was destroyed down there) and is basically wasted at this point as there is no creeper or emitter near by.
It really comes down to personally preference since there are players who go balls out with multiple makers at X4 while others save every last drop. A vacuum option would be fun so people could try new strategies involving anti-creeper.
But ya, some people are just obsessive compulsive (like me ;D ) and would just like to suck up every last drop and dump it somewhere else...
I actually manage to do both... I a lot of times have multiple makers set at x4, especially when there's only one emitter, and I'll just keep all the emitters in a little shield ball, then use repulsors to move the big greeper ball around as I need to. It's not time efficient, but it's fun!
Quote from: virgilw on May 31, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
I was thinking about something like this just last night. I thought maybe a repuslor could have modes of operation. Mode 0 might be how it is now. Mode 1, might point the edge field inward. Mode 2, might point the edge field outward. Like so
Mode 0 (repulsor pointing up in this example)
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
^^^
Mode 1
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
>^<
Mode 2
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
<^>
Mode 1 is good for sending a single, thin stream up and towards something else (like another repulsor). You could basically build a pipe with this mode. Mode 2 is good for keeping things out of the beam. Imagine if the beam were horizontal and creeper fell onto it. This would effectively create a horizontal surface for the creeper to fall against.
These things would be a pain to implement, but might be very useful....
Not sure, but wouldn't the Creeper be able to fall downwards into the beam in case of modes 1 and 2? At least a little I would think, unless you make all 3 top subcells point upwards of course....
Anyway, I like both idea's (including the reversed maker) too! :)
Yes, the ends have to be capped to make things seal up completely. This is part of the complexity in doing this. YOu don't want to see the pattern for diagonal beams.
Another thing I am flirting with is the old idea of "pipes" that has been talked about. This simplifies things a great deal while still providing an interesting way of getting creeper around. The pipe pieces would be straight (horizontal or vertical), angles (any of 4 rotations), t-joint (4 rotations), and a 4 way intersection. The field patterns for these pieces are easy to understand and use. With these pipes you could build a real contraption to move anti-creeper around.
Of course, I just implemented vacuum mode on the makers, so even pipes might be necessary with this addition....
O Yeah! A vacuum mode is perfect. I think pipes would be a better medium then repulsars because the repulsars already have enogh options as is. Maybe have an extra tab before of after experimentals labeled pipes or something for them. Have the same stiff you have. My question though is what would happen withe evil creeper? Would it destroy it or let it flow or have a health. One suggestion for it would to make them somewhat transparent or have a button so you can see the greeper flowing. So Many options! So little time! What do you think?
QuoteAnother thing I am flirting with is the old idea of "pipes" that has been talked about. This simplifies things a great deal while still providing an interesting way of getting creeper around. The pipe pieces would be straight (horizontal or vertical), angles (any of 4 rotations), t-joint (4 rotations), and a 4 way intersection. The field patterns for these pieces are easy to understand and use. With these pipes you could build a real contraption to move anti-creeper around.
wait, can't pipes just be made using shields? that's what I usually do.
In game you can't make fields only in the editor
Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 01, 2011, 11:21:09 PM
wait, can't pipes just be made using fields? that's what I usually do.
did you perhaps mean shields?
Quote from: Krell on June 01, 2011, 11:28:53 PM
Quote from: Ebon_Heart on June 01, 2011, 11:21:09 PM
wait, can't pipes just be made using fields? that's what I usually do.
did you perhaps mean shields?
A: I thought I quoted that.
B: yes, I did mean shields. whoops... it's too late here.
EDIT: fixed. thank you krell.
IDK you have a good point I just want to move greeper around better :P
just be clever. And you can indeed create fields outside the editor, what do you think repulsors are?! And I'd really like the ability to mess with the strength of repulsors... but that could ruin some of the up fighting maps. Maybe you can change how much they effect greeper?
Quote from: virgilw on June 01, 2011, 11:01:32 PM
Yes, the ends have to be capped to make things seal up completely. This is part of the complexity in doing this. YOu don't want to see the pattern for diagonal beams.
Another thing I am flirting with is the old idea of "pipes" that has been talked about. This simplifies things a great deal while still providing an interesting way of getting creeper around. The pipe pieces would be straight (horizontal or vertical), angles (any of 4 rotations), t-joint (4 rotations), and a 4 way intersection. The field patterns for these pieces are easy to understand and use. With these pipes you could build a real contraption to move anti-creeper around.
this is truly awesome!
You can crudely make pipes using shields and repulsors. This can work if you have the space. You have to create a corridor that is one cell big by flanking cells with shields (or using terrain). You can then aim repuslors in certain places to push the creeper through the 'pipe'.
The pipe 'units' would allow you to do all of this in a tighter space. Each pipe would take up one cell, but force creeper to flow though only a single subcell of space (a narrow 'beam' of creeper). Each pipe also would include internal fields that push the creeper along. Similar to shields and repuslors, just much more elegant and compact.
At this point it is just an idea that _could_ be implemented. In other words, I can see that I could create them and they would function. What purpose they have in the game is yet to be determined. Maybe they are cool, or maybe they don't help in game play and are just available in a sandbox mode for playing around....
Man, how do come up with this stuff! I have no where near your creativity. :o And I have been called extremely. Anyways I think the pipe idea is brilliant if you implement it right.
Pipes I think would be better than sponge. Although I think they should be creeper destructible so as to make repulsors still serve a vital function.
Yeah I think so too. Pipes could carry anti-creeper all day long. If a drone or creeper touches them, then 'pop'... you've got a leak in your pipeline.
Pipes sound like a really cool idea, and I can picture people spending hours just playing with them.
A suggestion for pipes: Have the option to 'block' pipes, so that you can stop anti-creeper flowing through them. This would allow you to reconfigure the network without losing anti-creeper to the leak. Or do damage control when creeper destroys a part of the network.
Quote from: Nemoricus on June 02, 2011, 02:42:10 PM
Pipes sound like a really cool idea, and I can picture people spending hours just playing with them.
Me too! :)
Quote from: Nemoricus on June 02, 2011, 02:42:10 PM
A suggestion for pipes: Have the option to 'block' pipes, so that you can stop anti-creeper flowing through them. This would allow you to reconfigure the network without losing anti-creeper to the leak. Or do damage control when creeper destroys a part of the network.
Use a shield? This will also allow to build up some pressure at the end of the line.
That wouldn't do much good for pipes in the middle of the network. Also, you can't have a shield where you're going to build the new pipe, so the network would leak until you put down the new pipe there.
Quote from: virgilw on June 02, 2011, 02:22:54 PM
Yeah I think so too. Pipes could carry anti-creeper all day long. If a drone or creeper touches them, then 'pop'... you've got a leak in your pipeline.
yay, now I don't have to make my own pipes in the editor when it comes out!
Quote from: Nemoricus on June 02, 2011, 03:44:49 PM
That wouldn't do much good for pipes in the middle of the network. Also, you can't have a shield where you're going to build the new pipe, so the network would leak until you put down the new pipe there.
Then you build a shield adjacent to it....
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 02, 2011, 04:15:07 PM
Quote from: Nemoricus on June 02, 2011, 03:44:49 PM
That wouldn't do much good for pipes in the middle of the network. Also, you can't have a shield where you're going to build the new pipe, so the network would leak until you put down the new pipe there.
Then you build a shield adjacent to it....
that sill doesen't solve the problem of how to get the new pipe in, though
Not sure if I understand the problem:
S
PPPPPPPLPPPP
S
P = pipe
L = leak
S = shield
Wouldn't that work?
Ah, that'd work. I was thinking that you meant putting a shield in the space between the two pipes, where it would block construction of a new pipe.
But what if the end gets severed or something? Also Virgil said there would be a T and 4-way for pipes. Then we should be able to block off certain ways. Also how would you get the AC into the pipe? Maybe the new vacuum unit/maker function could have a button to push up/left/right/down into a pipe? One more thing what about a diagonal pipe? Could that work?
Quote from: The Commander on June 02, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
Also Virgil said there would be a T and 4-way for pipes.
Not sure if the anti-Creeper would be divided evenly because of gravity.
Quote from: The Commander on June 02, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
But what if the end gets severed or something? Then we should be able to block off certain ways.
Shields? See above.
Quote from: The Commander on June 02, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
Also how would you get the AC into the pipe?
Repulsors? Or just put your maker at the start of it.
remove gravity inside pipes, simplest solution to problems with pipe forks. as for how to get creeper in just have the end cap able to be mounted by a repulsor or maker and that either forces it into the pipe or creates it already in the pipe.
I actually like it when you have to combine different types of units to get something done. It's like 1+1=3. :)
Too bad this whole pipe idea will be ruined if sponges are implemented. I personally prefer pipes to sponges.
Quote from: Krell on June 03, 2011, 02:42:51 PM
Too bad this whole pipe idea will be ruined if sponges are implemented. I personally prefer pipes to sponges.
no spounges as of yet
read the pins at the top of the suggestions recently? they want to turn the maker into a vacuum...
Quote from: Krell on June 03, 2011, 05:42:03 PM
read the pins at the top of the suggestions recently? they want to turn the maker into a vacuum...
I want Both ;D
What's the point? Pipes are worthless if you can just teleport your anti-creeper somewhere else.
Quote from: Krell on June 03, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
What's the point? Pipes are worthless if you can just teleport your anti-creeper somewhere else.
Well my point is if we can get virgil to have the vacuum just store and only that maker can use it again. Then there would still be a need for pipes.
Good!
perhaps the makers could have 3 functions
1. maker: what it is now turns ore into greeper then either stores or emits it
2. sponge: pulls greeper inside and stores it
3. pump: pushes greeper through pipe
its function would be controlled by two things its location and 2 options in its menu make y,n and store y,n
perhaps you could make a "greeper" tab which has makers, ore refineries, and Pipes.
you could make it so when you have a maker selected and move it onto a pipe opening it automatically starts pumping its greeper into it
the pipes option menu could be an 8 way selector wheel you click the ways you want it to be open
all greeper inside the pipe moves away from the maker or if the pipe is sealed it evens out
This actullu really good. I wish Virgil would listen.
Quote from: The Commander on June 11, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
I wish Virgil would listen.
If there's one developer who listens to the players of his games it's Virgil. He reads and considers everything written at the forums, but doesn't always reply, because that would mean the game will never be finished.
Bear in mind that the game needs to stay balanced, so many options have to be weighed. In addition to that the game shouldn't become too complex.
In my opinion repulsors already can create rather good pipes, especially when surrounded by terrain/shields. Furthermore anti-Creeper isn't that powerful, which means you shouldn't spend tons of energy for its infrastructure when you play the game well. And finally -as you've probably read in the topic about vacuming/bursting- you will soon see some nice functionality that will make you forget about pipes and sponges in an instant. ;)
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 11, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Quote from: The Commander on June 11, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
I wish Virgil would listen.
If there's one developer who listens to the players of his games it's Virgil. He reads and considers everything written at the forums, but doesn't always reply, because that would mean the game will never be finished.
Bear in mind that the game needs to stay balanced, so many options have to be weighed. In addition to that the game shouldn't become too complex.
In my opinion repulsors already can create rather good pipes, especially when surrounded by terrain/shields. Furthermore anti-Creeper isn't that powerful, which means you shouldn't spend tons of energy for its infrastructure when you play the game well. And finally -as you've probably read in the topic about vacuming/bursting- you will soon see some nice functionality that will make you forget about pipes and sponges in an instant. ;)
You're certainly right about virgil listening to the members. And AC may not be all that powerful, but it's really fun! lol
Quote from: UpperKEES on June 11, 2011, 10:25:36 PM
Quote from: The Commander on June 11, 2011, 06:24:32 PM
I wish Virgil would listen.
If there's one developer who listens to the players of his games it's Virgil. He reads and considers everything written at the forums, but doesn't always reply, because that would mean the game will never be finished.
Bear in mind that the game needs to stay balanced, so many options have to be weighed. In addition to that the game shouldn't become too complex.
In my opinion repulsors already can create rather good pipes, especially when surrounded by terrain/shields. Furthermore anti-Creeper isn't that powerful, which means you shouldn't spend tons of energy for its
infrastructure when you play the game well. And finally -as you've probably read in the topic about vacuming/bursting- you will soon see some nice functionality that will make you forget about pipes and
sponges in an instant. ;)
Yeah you probably right
[/quote]
I've currently created several recirculating pumps with greeper and repulsors