This topic is for discussion of map #1283: PACursor 4: Stargate
(https://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld4/queryMaps.php?query=thumbnailid&id=1283)
Author: Heritor
Size: 400x163
There are a couple of new things on this map - spoilers below.
Can't work out how to get into the base?
Spoiler
There's an Impeller just next to the dam, and the only way to get to it is to get creeper directly behind the dam, so it can flow through (just like a real dam).
AI is too hard, can't get to the dam?
Spoiler
As soon as you get past the mesh, work your way up to the top of the map and the flip breeder there. Run your cursor up along the top of the map, take out the mrift at the top, then work your way around to the front of the dam where the 4 ERN'd terps are - they're easily destroyed and will net you some more power. Then destroy the second nearby mrift, which should cut off all power to the sections on either side of the canyon
Where does the
Spoiler
impeller
go to?
Spoiler
Look up the top of the map, and focus creeper on the impeller - you should see after not too long that the ship innocently parked up there has gone, along with the platform - hidden underneath is the output, plus a link to the first stargate.
Where to next?
Spoiler
Following normal stargate rules, check the line when you hover on the stargate - it'll take you down the very bottom-right of the screen, which links you to another impeller. This then leads you into the base.
Can't get past the
Spoiler
Blasted Lands in the middle
?
Spoiler
Try diverting off to the right first, taking out the bertha sitting there behind walls, then going through the stargate and take out the airstrips, berthas and rockets to reduce the constant assault in the middle.
I can't run creeper over the concrete walls?
Spoiler
Correct, they're designed to block both creeper and AC to make a proper maze.
Anything else, any suggestions, comments, thoughts, sincere offerings towards my sudden and inexplicable death, I'd love to hear them :)
This was good. took me 4.5 hours(including lag). Felt very satisfying to snake my way inside the base to cut the frontlines off from supply. and after flooding(and placing an emitter on top of) the factory, i just cleaned up the m-rifts and the resistance faded away. By that point however i confused myself as i forgot it turned AC into power. i was wondering for about 10 minuted how it has so much power when all it controlled was the 2 little islands.
This falls flat. First, there are locations you can not snake your way into There are some pipes that are completely closed, you will have to force your way in with blobs, skimmers, spores. However, there is no real way to do that because the walls only block AC and Creep. This does not stop the enemy from supplying through the walls, which means constant emitters, cannons, sprayers bombarding your creep from locations you can not stop. This also prevents you from ever completely taking a location, since they can supply from outside your area of effect. Any location you may have will soon be attacked from outside and lost. There is no way to starve the enemy of power.
Creator, look, I love the PAC mode, but a long drawn out game is not always fun. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I enjoy having to think outside the box, but when a map begins to take over an hour, it's drawn out too much. The person above who took 4.5 hours to complete it? Not everyone has that kind of time or commitment. I think I'm going to have to stop playing your maps, they all seem to have the same theme of being drawn out.
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 12:50:27 PM
There are some pipes that are completely closed
This part worries me the most - can you point out where it's closed off? I did a lot of testing to try and make sure I didn't miss anywhere (as that was a complaint from my last map, not being able to claim everywhere).
It is hard to fully claim a room in this map, especially early-on - later on, as you start taking down the berthas and capturing multiple rooms, you'll find it becomes slightly easier.
Looking at the rest of the PAC maps, I do feel mine are the hardest - and I create them that way because it's what I myself enjoy (my favourite CW3 maps were yum234's CSM maps) and I find there's not many of them at the moment.
(https://i.imgur.com/poDOVki.jpeg)
All stargates are linked; I'm not sure what they meant by closed off. I slogged through this map (<2 hours) and didn't have any that weren't connected to proper output locations.
That said; I didn't follow the strategy below. I get the complaint about being attacked by all sides and unable to hold ground...because my god the number of times I peaked back through what I held and muttered "No. No. No. No." shoving them back out again. Half my time was spent reclaiming. I think the worst of it was #4 - if I missed the anticreep breeder being retaken I had to dedicate minutes to reclaiming the territory again.
The route I took was:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 8, 7, 10, 6, 11, 12, 15, 13, 14, 17, 16, 18, 19
so...it's possible to take many routes; but it's a slog to hold whatever you take rather than work on a next puzzle. I'm very thankful the AI didn't swing behind me and recapture the badlands to the left...that would've been even more frustrating. Instead it completely ignored it.
Quote from: heritor on April 09, 2021, 01:17:02 PM
This part worries me the most - can you point out where it's closed off? I did a lot of testing to try and make sure I didn't miss anywhere (as that was a complaint from my last map, not being able to claim everywhere).
I'll play again and see. I'll draw myself a map, perhaps I just missed one that may have lead to the others.
Nope, just checked, drew a map. Check attachment, putting it in chat isn't working for me. 7 leads to 8 9 and 10, but none of those have anything attached to anything at all.
Can confirm that all pipes/stargates are linked. There was never any portion of the map I couldn't get to.
That said, this was an absolute slog and not particularly enjoyable. Once I realized it was hopeless to actually hold any area within the walls, it went a bit smoother though. Just keep pushing forward to take out refineries/rockets/berthas/the factory and you'll get it. Would have finished at just under 1 1/2 hours, but once I got to the rift lab I just destroyed the micro rift there and then went back and flooded everything out of spite. So that added another 15-20 minutes.
Quote from: Malignantmind on April 09, 2021, 04:15:57 PM
Can confirm that all pipes/stargates are linked. There was never any portion of the map I couldn't get to.
That said, this was an absolute slog and not particularly enjoyable. Once I realized it was hopeless to actually hold any area within the walls, it went a bit smoother though. Just keep pushing forward to take out refineries/rockets/berthas/the factory and you'll get it. Would have finished at just under 1 1/2 hours, but once I got to the rift lab I just destroyed the micro rift there and then went back and flooded everything out of spite. So that added another 15-20 minutes.
Tell me what I'm missing with the picture I created. There is nothing attached to 8 9 or 10, which 7 is attached to. They may be all linked to something, but you can't just go from one place to the next in a line. You are forced to stop and use launchers instead of just emitters and your cursor.
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 04:30:46 PM
Tell me what I'm missing with the picture I created. There is nothing attached to 8 9 or 10, which 7 is attached to. They may be all linked to something, but you can't just go from one place to the next in a line. You are forced to stop and use launchers instead of just emitters and your cursor.
Actually, i never used any launchers, i pushed with just cursor and emitters, i carried on through the same route as shown in the pic, then when i got to the black stargates(also marked with black lines in your pic) i worked to flood all 3 areas at once(difficult, and unneccesary), i should've focused on the main Liftic production area(9) and worked from there. The reason it took me so long was because i was not paying attention and ended up fighting the same room 3 or 4 times. Or i got screwed over by some well-placed orbitals.
After i eventually got 9 by ignoring my previous work and focusing on that one room, destroying nullified emitters and moving them further in. i moved back to re-capture my way in from the entrance. and then fought my way through the yellow stargate in 11 to get to 12, push across the AC breeder to the orange stargate, and then keep going until you get to the White stargate so you can kill the Factory. from there, kill m-rifts and the defences shut down on their own.
Most stargate maps will have multiple paths that take some effort to figure out. it may not seem like there's a way forward, but there will be a way, it could be a roundabout way instead of a straight line.
For the record. i very much enjoyed my 4.5 hours on this map. i think it's great that large PAC maps are back. i loved the large and complicated PAC maps in CW3. They aren't for everyone though, that's what the "long" tag is for.
EDIT: I also loved playing yum234's CSM maps aswell, especially the longer ones.
Love all your maps as a quick note...
Now to the stupid question... how does the mesh work? it doesnt seem to do anything for me in any of the maps. I didnt have luck finding info on it. In CW3 it was obvious, in CW4 im at a loss.
Quote from: SomeITGuy on April 09, 2021, 05:07:17 PM
Love all your maps as a quick note...
Now to the stupid question... how does the mesh work? it doesnt seem to do anything for me in any of the maps. I didnt have luck finding info on it. In CW3 it was obvious, in CW4 im at a loss.
When you say it didn't do anything i am assuming you connected an emitter to it(emitters make mesh under themselves but only under the base so it's not really visible), and that you flooded the area you want to build mesh with atleast 1 depth creep to activate it. Beyond that is your game up-to-date?
EDIT: just checked again. you can't place orders for mesh unless there is creep there, it's not a matter of "activating" the build order with creep, as it was in older PAC maps.
Thanks for the maps I like your others but this one just was not fun with the concrete walls. The AI supply/shoot through the walls had me cussing the whole way through. Gain a few feet, go back to reinforce what you have taken then move a few more feet is just not enjoyable.
Quote from: dwilkinson on April 09, 2021, 05:03:41 PM
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 04:30:46 PM
Tell me what I'm missing with the picture I created. There is nothing attached to 8 9 or 10, which 7 is attached to. They may be all linked to something, but you can't just go from one place to the next in a line. You are forced to stop and use launchers instead of just emitters and your cursor.
Actually, i never used any launchers, i pushed with just cursor and emitters, i carried on through the same route as shown in the pic, then when i got to the black stargates(also marked with black lines in your pic) i worked to flood all 3 areas at once(difficult, and unneccesary), i should've focused on the main Liftic production area(9) and worked from there. The reason it took me so long was because i was not paying attention and ended up fighting the same room 3 or 4 times. Or i got screwed over by some well-placed orbitals.
After i eventually got 9 by ignoring my previous work and focusing on that one room, destroying nullified emitters and moving them further in. i moved back to re-capture my way in from the entrance. and then fought my way through the yellow stargate in 11 to get to 12, push across the AC breeder to the orange stargate, and then keep going until you get to the White stargate so you can kill the Factory. from there, kill m-rifts and the defences shut down on their own.
Most stargate maps will have multiple paths that take some effort to figure out. it may not seem like there's a way forward, but there will be a way, it could be a roundabout way instead of a straight line.
For the record. i very much enjoyed my 4.5 hours on this map. i think it's great that large PAC maps are back. i loved the large and complicated PAC maps in CW3. They aren't for everyone though, that's what the "long" tag is for.
EDIT: I also loved playing yum234's CSM maps aswell, especially the longer ones.
Ok, you must be referring to number 9. I am actually in 9 right now and that is where I am attempting to push with launchers. How did you push with anything there? Nothing connects to there from the location you come in from, so I'm a bit confused by what you mean.
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 06:41:56 PM
Quote from: dwilkinson on April 09, 2021, 05:03:41 PM
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 04:30:46 PM
Tell me what I'm missing with the picture I created. There is nothing attached to 8 9 or 10, which 7 is attached to. They may be all linked to something, but you can't just go from one place to the next in a line. You are forced to stop and use launchers instead of just emitters and your cursor.
Actually, i never used any launchers, i pushed with just cursor and emitters, i carried on through the same route as shown in the pic, then when i got to the black stargates(also marked with black lines in your pic) i worked to flood all 3 areas at once(difficult, and unneccesary), i should've focused on the main Liftic production area(9) and worked from there. The reason it took me so long was because i was not paying attention and ended up fighting the same room 3 or 4 times. Or i got screwed over by some well-placed orbitals.
After i eventually got 9 by ignoring my previous work and focusing on that one room, destroying nullified emitters and moving them further in. i moved back to re-capture my way in from the entrance. and then fought my way through the yellow stargate in 11 to get to 12, push across the AC breeder to the orange stargate, and then keep going until you get to the White stargate so you can kill the Factory. from there, kill m-rifts and the defences shut down on their own.
Most stargate maps will have multiple paths that take some effort to figure out. it may not seem like there's a way forward, but there will be a way, it could be a roundabout way instead of a straight line.
For the record. i very much enjoyed my 4.5 hours on this map. i think it's great that large PAC maps are back. i loved the large and complicated PAC maps in CW3. They aren't for everyone though, that's what the "long" tag is for.
EDIT: I also loved playing yum234's CSM maps aswell, especially the longer ones.
Ok, you must be referring to number 9. I am actually in 9 right now and that is where I am attempting to push with launchers. How did you push with anything there? Nothing connects to there from the location you come in from, so I'm a bit confused by what you mean.
Once you get some creep into 9 then babysit it with the cursor a little until you can get emitters down to hold ground, work your way around to the other side with the runways, and then push from that side to the side you entered from, since the stargate could end up pushing AC again as it connects 4 rooms. and from there it's about cutting off the connections through walls by filling rooms in order.
EDIT: if you are wondering how to get creep in there in the first place, i pushed through 6 to 7(blue stargate), then went into 8 to kill some berthas and rockets while i was nearby(through the black stargate in 7), and then went into 9 also through the black stargate.
Think this was a pretty meh map to be honest, was able to complete it in 23min but I think it's to much focus on the cursor part. Didn't really use any emitters/launchers from when i was at the dam until i destroyed the factory and used lanchers to get to the rift lab.
Quote from: Jican on April 09, 2021, 12:50:27 PM
This falls flat. First, there are locations you can not snake your way into There are some pipes that are completely closed, you will have to force your way in with blobs, skimmers, spores.
I think you missed that there is an opening between room 6 and 11. A small gap, you can see it in the map posted by heritor.
Quote from: RageCage on April 09, 2021, 07:51:06 PM
Think this was a pretty meh map to be honest, was able to complete it in 23min but I think it's to much focus on the cursor part.
I enjoyed this map myself but I do agree with the too much cursor. I cleared the entire map 51 minutes using what looks like the intended route based on that numbered map that was posted, and I didn't place any launchers or emitters the entire map except for at the very beginning and to destroy the dam with blobs. Inside the "Base" it was too difficult to actually hold any ground anywhere because the AI connects through concrete walls and can shoot through them too, so anywhere I placed an emitter would just get nullified within a minute from across a wall anyway. It made no sense to try and hold any ground so I just cursored my way through the entire base destroying the runways, rockets, and berthas, and factory, and then just easily pushed through to the base.
I think not allowing connection/shooting through the concrete wall would be beneficial but of course would make this specific map too easy, so balancing layout or ai strength would be needed.
I wonder if the people complaining about it being a slog or too hard are trying to capture every room and keep it filled with creeper instead of just moving along and not caring the AI takes it back.
I always end up on some sort of weird sequence break on these maps. This time it was start-9-7-13-18-19, though there was some trying and failing on some other routes.
Edit: Also, fun to see my stargates getting some use ;D
Gonna jump on the bandwagon about too much cursor here. The concrete walls cause that you can't secure area. Cannons and snipers shoot through it, nullifiers nullify through it, collectors can make a path through it... If you mess something up, and your cursor-area gets converted or something, you look back to keep going from an area you secured, only to see that your emitters have been nullified, due to cannons coming through the concrete walls, and you have to start again from pretty much the dam.
Looks like a neat maze, though the concrete walls ruins it, given how you can never establish a proper foothold.
Quote from: heritor on April 09, 2021, 01:17:02 PM
Looking at the rest of the PAC maps, I do feel mine are the hardest - and I create them that way because it's what I myself enjoy (my favourite CW3 maps were yum234's CSM maps) and I find there's not many of them at the moment.
(https://i.imgur.com/poDOVki.jpeg)
I enjoyed PACursor 3 minus the long sections with nothing to blow up - I especially didn't care for the winding maze at the end of that map. I enjoyed this map until I literally got pushed completely out of #6 while in the middle of cursoring it. The AI started producing WAY too many shields and with the TWO(!) airships overhead and orbitals (especially multiple Conversions being rained down on me) and the AC breeder in that section, it just stopped being fun.
Here's my recommendation: Scan the map and check for creeper on each (X, Z) coordinate every 15 seconds (or a reasonable subset or less frequency if performance will be an issue). If creeper is there, mark it internally as unusable by the AI even if a bit later, a shield or a unit clears the zone. Every 5 minutes, clear the internal unusable map. That way, the AI is less aggressive in areas where creeper has taken over BUT won't stay indefinitely out of those areas (might take 20-30 minutes for the AI to reclaim an area). Otherwise the player can wind up in situations where they are pushed out of areas they completed AND get pushed completely out of areas they are currently trying to work through and therefore wind up back at the entrance to the base, which is basically what happened to me (and looks like many other people too). I think such a change would provide a much more balanced approach that would be acceptable to most players. You might have to play with the frequency of scans and resets to determine the right balance.
Also, my comment about PACursor 3 having long corridors with nothing to blow up also applies to this map. Even if it is just a bunch of towers and pylons, watching them blow up is satisfying and makes having to slog through all the AC worth the effort.
Getting to the entrance of the base was quite simple (i.e. the first half of the map). Everything about the base itself is a slog even with cursor power 20. The difference in difficulty skyrockets upon entering the base. That felt rather unbalanced to me. PACursor 3 was about the same difficulty level for most of the map and therefore felt a lot more balanced overall.
10/s cursor power can blast through everything this map can throw at it. The toughest part of this map is the corridor of AC breeder near the dam. Once you can get past that its just a matter of pushing through to the factory and sieging down those two shield walls by the sweeper.
Might be more fun if the enemy wasnt so OP
Great map. first play took almost an hour game time. I did get lost on trying to find a path to yellow gates, i didnt see the small path in the wall between 11 and 6. With 19 being my northside it was hard seeing that hole. But that just made the launchers more useful to jump a wall or 2. Had fun the whole time. :}
For players having trouble, I found it to much time consuming trying to hold each room after clearing them out. the AI is smart enough to try to take back what it lost and it will take it back even if you leave like 7 emiters behind. GL HF
this was pretty brutal.. i got past the dam and cut off everything outside of the walls no problem but it took me forever to get room #4 stable and spread to #5. I was able to get to #6 but never really held it... I used it to get to #11 and kill the berthas and then wreck 12, 13, 14, & 15.. but i was never able to hold them either. I tried to abandon #4 and just keep moving forward @ #6 but the AI hemmed me in. 11:00 + hours and its easting my lunch.
that was fun
My god the Ai is crazy OP in this, I've been playing for 37 minutes and just got into room 4 and 2 minutes later they nullified my single emitter and converted the little creep I had using an orbital.
I think my biggest issues with this were the AI spamming orbitals quite literally every couple of minutes and the fact they could wreck you by nullifying or setting a shield through a wall that you couldn't do anything about.
Gave an attachment of how it ended for me, couldn't see anyway out. You put a lot of effort into your maps, but I guess they are simply just too hard for me. I'm only writing this to suggest maybe toning down on the orbitals a bit, it really did seem like the AI in my game had infinite use of them.
I had that entire square in front of the shield filled with creep, and I was breaking through as fast as I could, but then I got hit with a conversion, then rain, one after each other and it completely wiped me out.
Edit: just wanted to edit and say I went at it again and I was able to beat it this time with the liberal use of mesh which made retaking areas from conversion a lot faster. literally painted the entire map in mesh, was satisfying to beat that map though.
I cant figure out any way to advance after crossing the chasm, between the berthas and the orbitals the base keeps my creeper well at bay no matter what i do
Quote from: knightace on April 09, 2021, 03:17:40 PM
All stargates are linked; I'm not sure what they meant by closed off. I slogged through this map (<2 hours) and didn't have any that weren't connected to proper output locations.
That said; I didn't follow the strategy below. I get the complaint about being attacked by all sides and unable to hold ground...because my god the number of times I peaked back through what I held and muttered "No. No. No. No." shoving them back out again. Half my time was spent reclaiming. I think the worst of it was #4 - if I missed the anticreep breeder being retaken I had to dedicate minutes to reclaiming the territory again.
The route I took was:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 8, 7, 10, 6, 11, 12, 15, 13, 14, 17, 16, 18, 19
so...it's possible to take many routes; but it's a slog to hold whatever you take rather than work on a next puzzle. I'm very thankful the AI didn't swing behind me and recapture the badlands to the left...that would've been even more frustrating. Instead it completely ignored it.
I spent hours last night going around in circles, because I didn't see the 1 square gap between 6 and 11! Without that you can't get to the end
Got it done in 2h. I´m just not a big fan of these big ac-fields. Yeah, you can push through, but it just takes time. No Skill.
For everyone who needs a hand - just go directly to the fabric and build some launcher there to kill the rift. That's it.
Hello,
any chance you create more maps like this ;D
Thanks anyways :)
Bit of a necro post, but I finally got around to doing this level, and it was pretty interesting. And the use of the new stargates was cool as well. 8)
But yeah, I half-agree with the other posts in this topic. If you treat the level as a normal one, it WILL turn into a unfun slog. Once you realize the mission is a assassination/speedrun type mission and plan/play accordingly, it goes much better/faster.
Just for reference, I'll post the .cw4rec file of how I did the mission.