Something you may already know, but I've never seen it discussed at the forums (apart from this topic (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=775.0), where mthw2vc pointed this out to me ages ago).
Mortars automatically target the deepest creeper and players often do the same when sending out their drones. In some cases however it is better to target a shallow point close to the deeper creeper. This is applicable when the deep pool of creeper isn't that large, ranging from only one single cell (1 block) to a small pool or stretched trench. When the drone bomb hits the creeper it potentially damages a square of 7 by 7 blocks. Parts within this target area can be deeper, but never more shallow. This means a bomb targeting a single cell at elevation level 1 surrounded by cells at elevation level 2 will only do 1/49th of the damage that a bomb would do that targets it's neighboring cell!
So it can really pay off to move that mortar one spot to the side or aim at the edge of a higher elevation level when targeting your drones. The nearby deeper area will still be damaged onto the bottom (up to 4 elevation layers).
Note: when the target area is smaller than 7 by 7 blocks, but there is another area nearby at the same elevation level (i.e. a neighboring pool), that area will suffer from 'through the wall damage', so not all fire power has to be lost.
Edit:
- The maximum damage of 7x7 blocks is only correct for a drone; for a mortar this should be an almost rectangular shape of 36 blocks (approx. 5x7), see examples below.
- I have added examples with screenshots, see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5062.msg26995#msg26995).
- I have also added examples with screenshots of the so called 'through the wall damage', see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5062.msg26995#msg26995).
So many words, UpperKEES can you show us an example or make the paragraphs more simple?
I just got done doing housework, so I am in too lazy of a mood to process, decipher, and understand your post.......
I can understand ;), but I think an example would be a good idea. I would like to see one too.
Okay, I try to post a few screenshots on Monday. It's 3:40 AM now here and I should go to bed as I have a birthday to attend tomorrow.
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 16, 2010, 09:41:23 PM
It's 3:40 AM now here and I should go to bed
Good idea! :D I go to bed at 10:30 at the latest, and that is on the weekends.
Quote from: Fisherck on October 16, 2010, 09:52:28 PM
Good idea! :D I go to bed at 10:30 at the latest, and that is on the weekends.
When I was your age I wasn't even allowed to stay up that late! ;)
*is off to bed now*
lol what age is that? (these days i dont go to bed after around 1 ... *looks at clock* oh shi its after one, night all!)
btw i agree completely with what you said upperkees, i've come across that kind of situation too, one time i was bombing a trench and one of the bombs landed right in it which cleared the trench completely but most of the damage was wasted, ialways make sure to have my drones target the ledge of what i'm bombing unless the pool is sufficiently big
Quote from: Aurzel on October 17, 2010, 08:11:30 PM
lol what age is that? (these days i dont go to bed after around 1 ... *looks at clock* oh shi its after one, night all!)
At the age of 15. I had to go to bed at 21:00 or 21:30 I think. Probably the reason I always stay up late nowadays.... :)
Quote from: Aurzel on October 17, 2010, 08:11:30 PM
btw i agree completely with what you said upperkees, i've come across that kind of situation too, one time i was bombing a trench and one of the bombs landed right in it which cleared the trench completely but most of the damage was wasted, ialways make sure to have my drones target the ledge of what i'm bombing unless the pool is sufficiently big
Yep! Aiming at the ledges is what you want to do!
Quote from: Fisherck on October 16, 2010, 09:36:16 PM
I can understand ;), but I think an example would be a good idea. I would like to see one too.
See the next 2 posts for examples with screenshots.
The maximum damage a mortar shell can do is 144 ccc (cubic creeper cells), see below:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1624;image)
When it hits a large area of at least 4 elevation layers deep, it will damage 36 squares to a depth of max. 4 layers, making a total of 144 ccc. The shape of the damaged area is a little odd; it's always a rectangle of 5 by 7 squares, minus the bottom right corner plus 2 squares on the left. All other squares on the screenshot (also the ones with a diagonal line on it) still contain their starting value of 4 ccc.
(In case you are wondering why I have all these units on the map: these slow down the game which enabled me to time the pausing for my screenshot better. ;) It's the basin on the right that you want to be looking at.)
When a mortar shell hits a smaller area, it will damage as many squares as possible at that same elevation level:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1626;image)
In this case it does only half of the maximum damage: an area of 3 by 6 of 4 layers deep = 72 ccc.
You get very bad value for your money when your mortar targets a single square:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1628;image)
In this case it does only 1/36th of its potential damage and wastes your energy like you don't care. None of the surrounding squares are damaged at all!
Of course you don't like this, so better move your mortar a little:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1630;image)
When you just hit the ledge (or anywhere near it), the shell will damage squares on its own elevation level, plus the squares on lower levels! You probably recognize the shape from the first screenshot: 36 squares are affected again. 30 squares with 3 layers of creeper and 6 squares with 4 layers of creeper, making the total damage 90 + 24 = 114 ccc.
Please note that the circle indicating the range of your mortar is not 100% accurate! It does in fact shoot 1 square further to the exact north, east, south and west than the circle indicates! (I always knew about this, but I never said anything.... ;))
In my next post I will continue about the so called 'through the wall damage', as I can only attach a maximum of 5 images to 1 post.
When you mortar targets a pool smaller than 36 squares, not everything has to be lost. If other pools are nearby you will see an effect called 'through the wall damage', see below:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1640;image)
Not only the pool hit by the shell gets cleared, but also parts of neighboring pools. If you count well, you'll notice that again 36 squares are affected. This effect is a result of an optimization Virgil used to speed up the calculations, causing all cells on the same or a lower elevation level to get damaged when there is still fire power left. So it doesn't matter whether there is a wall between these areas or not!
The shape or amount of pools doesn't matter:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1642;image)
In this case you see 6 adjacent pools of each 9 squares (all 3 by 3). Again the 36 nearest squares get cleared, doing maximum damage of 144 ccc.
There is a limit to the distance of 'through the wall damage' however:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1648;image)
This effect will not reach further than 7 blocks from the point of impact, resulting in 72 ccc damage. This doesn't differ from 'normal' damage:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1644;image)
Only 15 x 4 = 60 ccc damage is done here.
Blasters can also benefit from this kind of damage:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5062.0;attach=1646;image)
On the left you see a blaster capping a weak emitter. The pool to the left of it would normally overflow and is out of reach of the blasters range, but the 'through the wall' damage also affects the creeper in there (one elevation level lower than the blaster and the capped emitter). That's how you preserve energy! I use this effect whenever I can on Chronom maps.
On the right you see a blaster capping an emitter in a rather similar situation. Only this time there is a crazonium wall in between as well! It doesn't matter however, the damage is done anyway as you can see. I like this effect a lot less, because it affected the mechanics for the few maps I used crazonium: Nice Job 10: The Teacher (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3188) and Nice Job 25: The Developer (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=3919).
Well, now you all know about it, so use it to your advantage! :) Stop aiming your mortars and drones at the deepest pools, but choose for a shallower spot close to it.
Nerdy much :P quite a wall of mathematics, explanations and assumptions, all mixed with a lovely mix of pictures
Wow and very nice way to show how it works =)
The "topic" has been up before that towers damage lower terrain nearby ,
but your images really show an nice way of how it works =D
This should give some hints for alot of maps ;)
i always thought through the wall damage was a glitch?
Quote from: Echo51 on October 19, 2010, 05:31:39 AM
Nerdy much :P quite a wall of mathematics, explanations and assumptions, all mixed with a lovely mix of pictures
Yeah, I like a professional approach whenever I do something, including gaming. ;D
Quote from: SPIFFEN on October 19, 2010, 05:50:39 AM
Wow and very nice way to show how it works =)
The "topic" has been up before that towers damage lower terrain nearby ,
but your images really show an nice way of how it works =D
This should give some hints for alot of maps ;)
Yes, you can really save a lot of energy when applying this knowledge. I've also been thinking of creating a map that forces you to use 'through the wall damage' to be able to solve it. I won't tell however; that will be something for the players to find out. ;)
Quote from: ontheworld on October 19, 2010, 06:26:13 AM
i always thought through the wall damage was a glitch?
Nope, it isn't, see
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=634.msg5362#msg5362).
very well done upperkees, i dont think anyone else could have explained it so clearly and succinctly
Thanks Aurzel, also for teaching me a new word. ;)
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 16, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
When the grenade/shell hits the creeper it potentially damages a square of 7 by 7 blocks.
It damages one more square than a 7x7 in the corner.
(http://d.imagehost.org/0213/111_5.jpg)
Thanks mthw2vc! :)
Apparently a mortar shell does 144 ccc damage (as seen in previous examples), while a drone bomb does 50 x 4 = 200 ccc damage.
A mortar shell costs 3.4 energy, so 144 / 3.4 = 42.4 ccc max. damage is done per unit of energy.
A drone bomb costs 1.6 energy, so 200 / 1.6 = 125 ccc max. damage is done per unit of energy, which is about 3 times more than a mortar (but of course the maximum damage is almost never done).
Edit: see here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5062.msg29991#msg29991) for a slight addition.
yeah while a drone seems to do far more damage, the bombing run ensures that only around 1/3 - 1/2 of the potential damage is done on average even assuming pretty thick creeper cover (unless there's ridiculously large amounts of creeper on the field)
Wow - now I gotta figure out how to use the info - can't claim ignorance any more.
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 19, 2010, 08:23:03 AM
I've also been thinking of creating a map that forces you to use 'through the wall damage' to be able to solve it.
Well,
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5425.msg29666#msg29666) it is!
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 21, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
Apparently a mortar shell does 144 ccc damage (as seen in previous examples), while a drone bomb does 50 x 4 = 200 ccc damage.
A slight addition to this, discovered by Kapoios:The cell directly targeted can be damaged up to 8 ccc! When it contains more than 4 ccc of creeper, only 35 cells will be damaged by a mortar shell instead of 36 (or 49 for a drone bomb respectively).
The maximum damage done remains the same however. This behaviour is similar to the way blasters do their damage, see
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5081.msg27817#msg27817).
Quote from: UpperKEES on October 16, 2010, 02:16:32 PM
This means a bomb targeting a single cell at elevation level 1 surrounded by cells at elevation level 2 will only do 1/49th of the damage that a bomb would do that targets it's neighboring cell!
that was one of the things that got me frustrated. i saw fisherck's world at night map in his signature on this topic, and when i built a mortar on africa, anywhere i moved it, it still hit the same 3 cells in the south atlantic that was 1 level below the rest. still, made it more challenging regardless of how frustrating it was lol
Quote from: Aurzel on October 21, 2010, 09:34:12 AM
very well done upperkees, i dont think anyone else could have explained it so clearly and succinctly
Yes, very succulent.
Quote from: Destroyer333 on April 04, 2011, 06:50:39 PM
Quote from: Aurzel on October 21, 2010, 09:34:12 AM
very well done upperkees, i dont think anyone else could have explained it so clearly and succinctly
Yes, very succulent.
Succinct (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/succinct) =/=
Succulent (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/succulent)
Upperkees, thanks for the work you put into this.
Quote from: WreeperCorld on April 09, 2011, 08:41:55 AM
Upperkees, thanks for the work you put into this.
Someone making an account just to say thanks... Things are going the good way in this world =D
Quote from: ontheworld on April 09, 2011, 09:09:33 AM
Quote from: WreeperCorld on April 09, 2011, 08:41:55 AM
Upperkees, thanks for the work you put into this.
Someone making an account just to say thanks... Things are going the good way in this world =D
and the useless way :P