This topic is for discussion of map: Hard Art 1: Horsemen (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2677)
(http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/thumb.php?id=2677) (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2677)
Author: UpperKEES (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/viewmaps.php?author=UpperKEES)
Desc:
My first map in the Hard Art series. Your initial space is limited and the emitters can be hard to cap due to their location, although their intensity isn't very high. See intro text for more details.
Title: | Hard Art 1: Horsemen |
Difficulty: | Expert Only |
Creeper type: | Land only |
Remarks: | My first map in the Hard Art series. Your initial space is limited and the emitters can be hard to cap due to their location, although their intensity isn't very high. See intro text for more details.
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Description: | This is part 1 of a 10 map series called 'Hard Art', inspired by well known artists (from both the real world and the creeper world).
I'll start with my favorite artist, known for his regular divisions of the plane and his 3D illusions.
ARTIST: M.C. Escher
TITLE: Horsemen
MATERIAL: lithograph & woodcut
YEAR: 1946
DIMENSIONS: 37.5 x 29.2 cm
The emitters will increase their frequency after 6, 9 and 12 minutes, but their intensity will stay the same.
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Download page: | Hard Art 1: Horsemen (http://knucklecracker.com/creeperworld/mapcomments.php?id=2677) |
Full size screen shot: | (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=941;image) |
Based on: | (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=978.0;attach=943;image)
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More art: | See here for more maps about art (and jobs) ;) (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.0) |
Hard Art indeed! that was rough from beginning to end. tho i think in hindsight if i were to redo it, id get a better time.. cant remember the last time it took me 45 mins of game time to do a map. im surprised there arent many scores or posts tho, ppl must be on vacation..
u did a good job recreating that painting. it must have taken u quite some time to do so. good job.
I havnt posted a score yet for a pretty simple reason.
I can't do it yet ;D
Very tough.
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 22, 2010, 08:32:10 PM
Hard Art indeed! that was rough from beginning to end.
Yeah, except for the last one (HA-10; a remake of The Artist) this will be the hardest of the series. I liked to start and end with a pretty tough map. :P
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 22, 2010, 08:32:10 PM
tho i think in hindsight if i were to redo it, id get a better time..
Same for me. The time I've set was the first time I completed it after the latest changes I made. I lost 10 reactors due to a bad placement of 2 blasters, so I think a time around 22 minutes should be possible.
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 22, 2010, 08:32:10 PM
cant remember the last time it took me 45 mins of game time to do a map. im surprised there arent many scores or posts tho, ppl must be on vacation..
I can remember this very well; it was about a week ago, it was
very boring and it took me even a lot longer than 45 minutes.... ;)
Looking at the number of comments posted it seems indeed rather quiet at the moment. I didn't expect that many scores for this map, but I also didn't expect you'd be the only one after one and a half day. As always I'm willing to give a few hints, so I'll do so when these are requested.
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 22, 2010, 08:32:10 PM
u did a good job recreating that painting. it must have taken u quite some time to do so. good job.
Thanks Melissa! :) This map indeed has cost me more time than any other till now. When I finished it I found out that I had to shift the complete map down by 2 squares. Because I actually wanted to shift The Artist to the left by one square as well, I decided to write a program to do this for me. With some help of Virgil I managed to get this to work, which saved me some time (and was less boring to do).
The next one in the Hard Art series will be one of your works: Envy.
Quote from: RichieRich on July 23, 2010, 07:39:33 AM
I havnt posted a score yet for a pretty simple reason.
I can't do it yet ;D
Very tough.
Let me know when and where you get stuck, so I can try to help you out.
Yikes that was slow and tough. Took a good few tries to figure out a (somewhat) safe position at the start. The limited space meant very slow progress. Took 35 mins to get the bottom horses down and a deficit came when pushing up and most of the network collapsed. Found that a pain as I really thought I was there and going to cruise the upper half.
After that I rebuilt and left two blasters with each emitter whcih was not really necessary but I couldn't face starting again.
One of your hardest and a great concept. Thanks.
I am tired and need a beer or two after that. :P
Quote from: RichieRich on July 23, 2010, 12:31:59 PM
Yikes that was slow and tough. Took a good few tries to figure out a (somewhat) safe position at the start. The limited space meant very slow progress. Took 35 mins to get the bottom horses down and a deficit came when pushing up and most of the network collapsed. Found that a pain as I really thought I was there and going to cruise the upper half.
After that I rebuilt and left two blasters with each emitter whcih was not really necessary but I couldn't face starting again.
Heheh! Sounds like you had quite a battle!
Let me give a few hints for people who don't want to spend that much time on this map:
Spoiler
- Only move to a new section when you have used all available space. When you build enough reactors you won't have a deficit at any moment.
Spoiler
- I first use the available space on the horse & horseman where Odin City is located. Like this (ignore the orange dot & line; I used this image for a different topic as well):
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4045.0;attach=950;image)
Spoiler
- With a second blaster you can clear the area underneath the horse, so you can build 5 more reactors.
Spoiler
- With a third blaster you can cap the head of this same horse, giving you more space. I've built a relay there to jump to the horseman on the left. Rinse & repeat.
Spoiler
- The collector at the tail of the first horse will allow you to cap the horse on the right rather easily.
Spoiler
- Only cap emitters when you are going to conquer that section. Because the blasters will get distracted, capping will probably cost you more energy than it will gain you.
Spoiler
- Once the 3 bottom horses have been conquered, I just send 3 mortars up and connect to them by building relays from the hats of the horsemen. This should only cost you a couple of minutes when your infrastructure is sufficient.
Quote from: RichieRich on July 23, 2010, 12:31:59 PM
One of your hardest and a great concept. Thanks.
Thank you as well! :)
Quote from: RichieRich on July 23, 2010, 12:31:59 PM
I am tired and need a beer or two after that. :P
Cheers!
Edit: typo's
Quote from: UpperKEES on July 23, 2010, 08:05:34 AM
Thanks Melissa! :) This map indeed has cost me more time than any other till now. When I finished it I found out that I had to shift the complete map down by 2 squares. Because I actually wanted to shift The Artist to the left by one square as well, I decided to write a program to do this for me. With some help of Virgil I managed to get this to work, which saved me some time (and was less boring to do).
The next one in the Hard Art series will be one of your works: Envy.
i guess its a good thing that u write such programs, shifting everything over one square would be quite tedious.
yay, im next! ;D cant wait! thanks
Wow. Another hard and fun map. A few of my blasters had to be replaced because they were to close to the emitters they were getting capped. If I had not caught that, it would have taken a bit longer...
I had to work with the features of the map, making good use of where I put every reactor and blaster.
UpperKEES I love your maps, but I cannot get this one started. I can replicate the layout you show in post 6 but from that point I cannot get the front of the horse under control and I always lose the city. Not sure if there is more advice you can give, it is more likely that I am just not good enough for a map this hard. Out of curiosity however, what upgrades do you use on this map?
thanks! and thanks for all your designs.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 24, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
UpperKEES I love your maps, but I cannot get this one started. I can replicate the layout you show in post 6 but from that point I cannot get the front of the horse under control and I always lose the city. Not sure if there is more advice you can give, it is more likely that I am just not good enough for a map this hard. Out of curiosity however, what upgrades do you use on this map?
thanks! and thanks for all your designs.
Try a mortar
That was quite the map. I still have no idea how you get such short times. It boggles my mind ??? I look forward to the next one. :)
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 24, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Try a mortar
Where would you suggest?
a morter on the horses neck gets overrun, even paired with blasters.
I tried morters under the horses front legs and on the rider, but after 6 minutes the flow down the neck always gets me.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 24, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Try a mortar
Where would you suggest?
a morter on the horses neck gets overrun, even paired with blasters.
I tried morters under the horses front legs and on the rider, but after 6 minutes the flow down the neck always gets me.
Here is my start up (at least the begginning).That should work for you, and remember, not all weapons always need to be used to keep your area safe.
Quote from: Miss Melissa on July 24, 2010, 03:49:28 AM
yay, im next! ;D cant wait! thanks
Just a few more hours; I have to cook, eat and set a score first.
Quote from: Fisherck on July 24, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
Wow. Another hard and fun map. A few of my blasters had to be replaced because they were to close to the emitters they were getting capped. If I had not caught that, it would have taken a bit longer...
I experienced exactly the same thing, but unfortunately I already filled up the adjacent space, so I tried to replace a blaster by flying another one exactly over it (but failed).
Spoiler
I would build them 1 square more to the left now.
Quote from: Fisherck on July 24, 2010, 03:16:37 PM
I had to work with the features of the map, making good use of where I put every reactor and blaster.
Yeah, that's the nice thing about this map and you can probably only optimize this after playing the map once.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 24, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
UpperKEES I love your maps, but I cannot get this one started. I can replicate the layout you show in post 6 but from that point I cannot get the front of the horse under control and I always lose the city. Not sure if there is more advice you can give, it is more likely that I am just not good enough for a map this hard.
Spoiler
You'll have one space left on the horseman to create a new blaster. Use this to clear the section under the horse and then move it (or a third one) to the head of the horse, like indicated by Fisherck.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 24, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
Out of curiosity however, what upgrades do you use on this map?
Spoiler
I used all green updates, because the space to generate energy is limited, so this is most crucial. The mortar can always reach 3-4 pools at the same time, so the range upgrade is less valuable.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 24, 2010, 05:31:57 PM
thanks! and thanks for all your designs.
Thanks! :)
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 24, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Try a mortar
Spoiler
Yep, I used 3 of them and no drones at all.
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 24, 2010, 09:23:15 PM
That was quite the map. I still have no idea how you get such short times. It boggles my mind ??? I look forward to the next one. :)
Spoiler
Like described in reply #6. The most important thing is being patient I guess and only advance when you've maxed out your energy collection, which will make you advance much faster later on.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 02:01:23 AM
Where would you suggest?
a morter on the horses neck gets overrun, even paired with blasters.
I tried morters under the horses front legs and on the rider, but after 6 minutes the flow down the neck always gets me.
Spoiler
I would start with a mortar on the back of each horse and later move it to the horseman when the bottom section has been cleared. Later in the game I would move all mortars to the top 3 horsemen.
Quote from: Fisherck on July 25, 2010, 09:02:00 AM
Here is my start up (at least the begginning).That should work for you, and remember, not all weapons always need to be used to keep your area safe.
Spoiler
Yeah, that should work. You can indeed deactivate the mortars for a while to speed up the building of your reactors, or move your mortar around a bit.
So fraterpotents, see if this works for you. Let me know if you need more specific hints.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on July 24, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Try a mortar
Where would you suggest?
a morter on the horses neck gets overrun, even paired with blasters.
I tried morters under the horses front legs and on the rider, but after 6 minutes the flow down the neck always gets me.
I put it under the front horses legs (usually only one shot) to releave the pressure and then start transferring it the left horseman to keep the flow down. The pic is of the bottom left horsemen.
Minor differences can have an important effect. When you for instance look at the bottom right emitter on Snowmaker's picture:
(http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4032.0;attach=972;image)
When you would switch the blaster and collector to the left of it, the blaster would get damaged slowly and finally get killed (like happened to me). Now the creeper just doesn't reach the collector (while it uses the same 9 blocks of space). This means the actual dimensions of the structure (the displayed icon/sprite) are used to calculate whether a unit gets damaged or not.
UpperKEES, It really is interesting when looking at a still pic that you "see" things differently. Which ultimately saves time. Thanks for your comments :)
typo..
Yeah, that's why I don't post a screenshot too often, because it often reveals much more than just the 1 or 2 points I wanted to make clear. ;) Always fun to compare different approaches though (or to see that someone else found exactly the same solution as I did after learning from making the same mistakes), so also thanks to you for your contributions. :)
Whew finished it.
thanks all for the help, and especially to fisherck.
Turned out my key error was placing the blaster i was using to cap the horse's head too far back (several spaces away)
that meant that when it was not shooting to cap the emitter, it was firing in various directions.
putting it practically on top of the emitter (following fisherck's template) kept the blaster driving down the creeper level around the emitter which turns out to be crucial when the frequency steps up at 9 min and 12 min. once I made that change the rest of the map was hard but not too tricky.
what a map, I found I liked the increasing blaster intensity on this map, because it happened pretty quick. I disliked it on "the artist" because it is hard to figure out what you are doing wrong when each failed try takes 30 min.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 08:36:12 PM
Whew finished it.
:)
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 08:36:12 PM
thanks all for the help, and especially to fisherck.
Turned out my key error was placing the blaster i was using to cap the horse's head too far back (several spaces away)
that meant that when it was not shooting to cap the emitter, it was firing in various directions.
putting it practically on top of the emitter (following fisherck's template) kept the blaster driving down the creeper level around the emitter which turns out to be crucial when the frequency steps up at 9 min and 12 min. once I made that change the rest of the map was hard but not too tricky.
Yep, distracted blasters don't cap very well. Putting the blaster too close however might lead to damaging it, especially after the frequency increases.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 08:36:12 PM
what a map, I found I liked the increasing blaster intensity on this map, because it happened pretty quick. I disliked it on "the artist" because it is hard to figure out what you are doing wrong when each failed try takes 30 min.
The remake of The Artist (
HA-9: Firebirds (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5339.0)) will have even sooner increases, but I've decided to notify the players about the exact timings. When you keep the 'distracted blasters' in mind you shouldn't have a problem finishing that one as well.
Quote from: fraterpotens on July 25, 2010, 08:36:12 PM
Whew finished it.
thanks all for the help, and especially to fisherck.
Turned out my key error was placing the blaster i was using to cap the horse's head too far back (several spaces away)
that meant that when it was not shooting to cap the emitter, it was firing in various directions.
putting it practically on top of the emitter (following fisherck's template) kept the blaster driving down the creeper level around the emitter which turns out to be crucial when the frequency steps up at 9 min and 12 min. once I made that change the rest of the map was hard but not too tricky.
what a map, I found I liked the increasing blaster intensity on this map, because it happened pretty quick. I disliked it on "the artist" because it is hard to figure out what you are doing wrong when each failed try takes 30 min.
Thanks! It is nice to know I helped a fellow Creeper World player. ;D
I tried the map and again... I guess I got better ;D
Heheh, you certainly did! 8)
I already noticed your fast time a couple of days ago.... Maybe when I have a week with nothing to do (which I can't imagine at the moment), I'll try to get all those #1 spots back. It's impossible to keep up with you guys; everybody is getting better and better!
I knew I could do better after my last score of 24 min.... ;)
OMG! :o
Very nice! I guess you changed your strategy drastically?
Wow.... That is all I can say. It impresses me as much as that guy that lasted for 18 minutes in Nice job 2 the athlete. 8)
It was a complete change of strategy, which was a result of your last map.
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on December 09, 2010, 12:20:10 AM
It was a complete change of strategy, which was a result of your last map.
Oh? A result of mechanics in
Quagmire Quest 2 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5425.msg29666#msg29666)?
I'll keep that in mind when replaying.... Thanks for the hint! :)
Quote from: UpperKEES on December 09, 2010, 10:26:36 AM
Quote from: snowmaker (JM) on December 09, 2010, 12:20:10 AM
It was a complete change of strategy, which was a result of your last map.
Oh? A result of mechanics in Quagmire Quest 2 (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=5425.msg29666#msg29666)?
I'll keep that in mind when replaying.... Thanks for the hint! :)
It was really a combination of your maps.... but it was how I handled the increasing emitter intensity... that's the real hint.
Spoiler
- (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4045.0;attach=950;image)
Spoiler
- With a second blaster you can clear the area underneath the horse, so you can build 5 more reactors.
Spoiler
- With a third blaster you can cap the head of this same horse, giving you more space. I've built a relay there to jump to the horseman on the left. Rinse & repeat.
UK - I really hope I am keeping the 'spoiler' function in place here.
I keep losing everything at the 12 minute surge and have tried a real variety of Blasters/Mortars/Reactors.
Do you have a screen shot of your pieces when you make that 'relay' jump to the horse on the left?
Thanks
dbit
The big picture that was posted later on in the game was way past the point I can get to, so was of no use (yet).
[Edit - I'm past that now and on to the left horse. I'll call for help if I still need it.]
The upgrades that you choose will make it really easy or hard. I ended up not even using mortars for my time, because of my chosen upgrades.
Spoiler
Hint: Some emitters can be capped with one or a max of two blasters w/o dying. I believe that has been said before.
@snowmaker (JM) - thanks.
I've been able to make further progress - still working it.
Probably need to take a break and play some different games for a while.
There is not much room for error in this series and I tend to focus on one area, while another one is going to hell in a hand basket.
Quote from: DethbyIT on January 03, 2011, 04:00:08 PM
Hi Kees,
I'm still beating on HA-1 if you have time to read my comments.
I can get past that 12 minute barrier and start on the horse to the left, but then just run out of energy.
I can post an image if that would help.
Thanks,
dbit
I'm afraid I don't have an image other than the ones already posted in this topic.
I have decided to leave the forums, so you'll have to manage with the tips & hints provided up to now. Sorry for that....
Quote from: UpperKEES on January 11, 2011, 06:14:23 PM
I'm afraid I don't have an image other than the ones already posted in this topic.
I have decided to leave the forums, so you'll have to manage with the tips & hints provided up to now. Sorry for that....
Kees - I can't tell you how bad I feel to read those words.
You have provided a great deal of pleasure with the work you've done - and without question - your games were the best here.
Good luck to you and thank you for many many hours of enjoyment.
Semper Fidelis,
dbit
Quote from: DethbyIT on January 11, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
Quote from: UpperKEES on January 11, 2011, 06:14:23 PM
I'm afraid I don't have an image other than the ones already posted in this topic.
I have decided to leave the forums, so you'll have to manage with the tips & hints provided up to now. Sorry for that....
Kees - I can't tell you how bad I feel to read those words.
You have provided a great deal of pleasure with the work you've done - and without question - your games were the best here.
Good luck to you and thank you for many many hours of enjoyment.
Semper Fidelis,
dbit
I would have to agree with all of that. Your maps have brought entertainment to me ever since I have started playing them. You have been very important here in the forums and done much. And I also wish you well.
Sincerely,
Fish
Quote from: DethbyIT on January 11, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
Kees - I can't tell you how bad I feel to read those words.
You have provided a great deal of pleasure with the work you've done - and without question - your games were the best here.
Good luck to you and thank you for many many hours of enjoyment.
Semper Fidelis,
dbit
Quote from: Fisherck on January 11, 2011, 07:08:39 PM
I would have to agree with all of that. Your maps have brought entertainment to me ever since I have started playing them. You have been very important here in the forums and done much. And I also wish you well.
Sincerely,
Fish
Thanks guys, I really enjoyed creating these maps and competing with you. I'm sure I'm gonna miss that, see
here (http://knucklecracker.com/forums/index.php?topic=978.msg31278#msg31278).